God's TEN commandments: Bend or Edit them?

[BobRyan]

There is a thread titled -

God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7802097/

And there we find a number of Bible texts proving the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God - still binding on all the saints from Eden to this very day.

And not for the lost to keep - but rather something that only the saved saints could possibly keep --



Rom 8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul makes the point that the lost would be at war with the Law of God - but the saints under the New Covenant condition of the Law written on the heart - would not.

A number of Christian sources were shown to endorse that idea -- such as...

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson
The Catholic Church
Seventh-day Baptists.
Seventh-day Adventists


--- So for those who want to oppose or downsize the TEN Commandments, or want to refute those who oppose the TEN commandments - please see that other thread and make your views and proofs known.


BUT if you are one of those from among the groups listed above (or some other group that affirms the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God applicable to the saints today) --

Then THIS Thread is for you.


For example I encountered someone who "felt" that although the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God still binding on the saints today - "it would be wrong" to keep the 4th Commandment just as God actually gave it in Ex 20:8-11.

In any case and in the same way - some TEN Commandment affirming groups will want to edit/bend the Ten Commandments such that they "remain TEN but are CHANGED in some way" after the cross.

Could be the 2nd commandment or the 4th or ...

And others will want to leave them - as is -- still binding on the saints, and not bent/edited.

So then this is not the "Ten Commandments abolished" nor the "Ten Commandments downsized thread".

That is the "other thread" I started and linked at the top of this post.

====================================

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ condemns the idea of bending/editing/side-stepping even one of the commandments and uses as His example - the 5th commandment. He condemns all religious tradition that would choose otherwise - in that chapter.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.



What are your thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Way195]

We do know for sure that Jesus quoted and referred to nearly all of the ten commandments in the sermon on the mount. There's no question that those that Jesus commanded are relevant for us today. Those such as the sabbath day are more uncertain.

 

[BobRyan]

So then here is an example of what I mean by "affirm the TEN Commandments" even if one finds that one or two of them need to be "edited" -- but not "downsized".

The groups listed in the OP do it something like this --

=======================================

Here is how one of those sunday keeping sources present full support of the TEN Commandments.

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Since the question is also asked about the "Baptist Confession of Faith" affirmation of the TEN commandments as binding on all saints from Eden to this very day...

==========================================

[FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
[/FONT]
Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

• The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

• Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

• The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

​

I have pretty much the same statement from the "Westminster Confession of Faith" for those who prefer that source.

 

[maco]

We do know for sure that Jesus quoted and referred to nearly all of the ten commandments in the sermon on the mount. There's no question that those that Jesus commanded are relevant for us today. Those such as the sabbath day are more uncertain.

Jesus taught on every one of the Ten Commandments, especially the fourth commandment, which refers to the seventh day Sabbath. I think Jesus taught more on that commandment than any of the other nine. The important thing to grasp is that not one time did Jesus ever change the day nor did He ever talk about the first day. So where are people getting the authority for Sunday assembly?

 

[MJohn7]

 

[MJohn7]

8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Sophrosyne

Let's face it the Sabbath was only for Israel to keep and never commanded of anyone BUT Israel
​

​

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23.

"The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27

"There REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4.

"Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7.

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

And of course the non-Jews are KEEPING Sabbath in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18, And Isaiah 56:6

 

[Lion King]

Another thread about Law? Is this really necessary?

 

[Kyprian]

Jesus taught on every one of the Ten aCommandments, especially the fourth commandment, which refers to the seventh day Sabbath. I think Jesus taught more on that commandment than any of the other nine. The important thing to grasp is that not one time did Jesus ever change the day nor did He ever talk about the first day. So where are people getting the authority for Sunday assembly?

The sabbath never changed. BUT...early Christianity always revered Sunday in addition to the sabbath. Greek is a precise language. If 1st century Christians honored only the Sabbath, then when St. John penned the Apocalypse, he would have said 'I was in the spirit on the sabbath". Acts would have made mention of the gathering of the saints on the sabbath. Instead, the phrasing used translates to Day of the Lord. The greek for sabbath is sabbaticos. hmm. Guess the writers of the New Testament didn't know Greek well enough..oh wait, it was the lingua franca of the day.....

 

[BobRyan]

In Mark 2:27-28 Christ is "Lord of the Sabbath"

In Isaiah 58 The Sabbath is "The Holy Day of the Lord".

In Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before me to worship"

So then in Rev 1 when "The LORD's day" is mentioned is it wise to ignore all the scripture pointing to that as the 4th commandment - and suppose "week-day-1" in its place??

Not based on the Bible.

There are two specific places where "week-day-1" is used specifically in the NT where no attempt is made to associate it with "The Lords day" one is in 1Cor 16:2 and the other is in Acts 20 where there may well have been some sort of gathering for worship - the perfect place to associate worship with "week-day-1 called the Lord's Day" -- instead we have just "week day 1".

That is instructive.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Another thread about Law? Is this really necessary?

This thread is just for those who already read the "Ten Commandments: Break them or keep them?" thread and decided that God's Ten Commandments are still valid.

The list of organizations given at the top in the OP explains who these might be.

If the intent is to balk or complain about the Ten Commandments - that is what the other thread linked to in the OP is all about.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When we get to those who affirm the TEN Commandments - and yet want to retain Sunday-keeping as a form of the 4th commandment - we have gotten to the subject of this thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The sabbath never changed. BUT...early Christianity always revered Sunday in addition to the sabbath. Greek is a precise language. If 1st century Christians honored only the Sabbath, then when St. John penned the Apocalypse, he would have said 'I was in the spirit on the sabbath".

It seems that they added the Title "Lord's Day" to Sabbath as in Isaiah 58 and as in Mark 2:27-28 "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath"

What would be more shocking is if they had not "noticed" that "week day 1" was being called "The Lord's Day" and that the SEVENTH day Sabbath ended - never once pointing that out in actual scripture - yet spending TONS of time pointing out that circumcision of gentiles was not needed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cribstyl]

repeating lies does not make them true

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We do know for sure that Jesus quoted and referred to nearly all of the ten commandments in the sermon on the mount. There's no question that those that Jesus commanded are relevant for us today. Those such as the sabbath day are more uncertain.

Not according to the sabbatarian Christians here.

King of Kings-Sermon on the Mount. - YouTube

 

[from scratch]

There is a thread titled -

God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7802097/

And there we find a number of Bible texts proving the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God - still binding on all the saints from Eden to this very day.

And not for the lost to keep - but rather something that only the saved saints could possibly keep --



Rom 8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul makes the point that the lost would be at war with the Law of God - but the saints under the New Covenant condition of the Law written on the heart - would not.

A number of Christian sources were shown to endorse that idea -- such as...

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson
The Catholic Church
Seventh-day Baptists.
Seventh-day Adventists


--- So for those who want to oppose or downsize the TEN Commandments, or want to refute those who oppose the TEN commandments - please see that other thread and make your views and proofs known.


BUT if you are one of those from among the groups listed above (or some other group that affirms the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God applicable to the saints today) --

Then THIS Thread is for you.


For example I encountered someone who "felt" that although the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God still binding on the saints today - "it would be wrong" to keep the 4th Commandment just as God actually gave it in Ex 20:8-11.

In any case and in the same way - some TEN Commandment affirming groups will want to edit/bend the Ten Commandments such that they "remain TEN but are CHANGED in some way" after the cross.

Could be the 2nd commandment or the 4th or ...

And others will want to leave them - as is -- still binding on the saints, and not bent/edited.

So then this is not the "Ten Commandments abolished" nor the "Ten Commandments downsized thread".

That is the "other thread" I started and linked at the top of this post.

====================================

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ condemns the idea of bending/editing/side-stepping even one of the commandments and uses as His example - the 5th commandment. He condemns all religious tradition that would choose otherwise - in that chapter.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.



What are your thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

From what I read here in the forum, I think some believe they have the authority to amend what God wrote with His own finger in stone. I think that's just a tad over the top in arrogance.

 

[Sophrosyne]

[/indent]"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23.

"The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27

"There REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4.

"Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7.

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

And of course the non-Jews are KEEPING Sabbath in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18, And Isaiah 56:6

Why are you quoting me from another thread and posting a reply here where I had not posted yet?

 

[Sophrosyne]

From what I read here in the forum, I think some believe they have the authority to amend what God wrote with His own finger in stone. I think that's just a tad over the top in arrogance.

Yup they amend the Mosaic Law to suit themselves.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Another thread about Law? Is this really necessary?

What else do the CF sabbatarians have to discuss on GT.......




.

 

[from scratch]

[/INDENT] "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23.

"The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27

"There REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4.

"Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7.

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

And of course the non-Jews are KEEPING Sabbath in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18, And Isaiah 56:6

Hey I don't have to go to the grocery store to get spam anymore.