God's sovereignty and the role of the Trinity in Genesis 1

[Bible Highlighter]

(Continuation from my previous post):

The following verses talks about the glory that Jesus once shared with God the Father before the world came into existence.

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:5).​

​

"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14).​

​

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6).​

This glory is Christ’s Omniscience. Jesus was able to learn because His Omniscience was suppressed so as to be like a man.

"Although He was a Son [who had never been disobedient to the Father], He learned [active, special] obedience through what He suffered." (Hebrews 5:8) (AMP).​

Jesus was being made perfect in obedience (through suffering) as a man. He was a man in the sense that he had a flesh and blood body of a man and He was limited in knowledge because His Omniscience in being God was suppressed. Some believe Jesus emptied Himself of His divine privileges or powers. But this is not true. Jesus did not lose His Omniscience. He always had it, but I believe He merely suppressed it.

Now, I don’t believe this state of our LORD was permanent. I believe that when Jesus accomplished His mission in bringing redemption for mankind (With His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension to the Father), His Omniscience was no longer hindered or suppressed anymore.

Why?

Well, because there would be no longer a purpose or need for His Omniscience to be suppressed anymore. His mission in being a type of Adam to die in the place for our sins and conquering the penalty of sin and death was fulfilled.

Praise the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hallelujah.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jamdoc

There is also a connection between Jesus and Genesis 1.

Finger Prints of the Greatest Love Story Ever Told!

In the opening of God's love letter to man, God lets us know that He created all things in six days and stops from all His work on the seventh and blesses it. However, what you may not know, is that God had also secretly told us about the greatest love story of all in the beginning of His Word, too.

1. Day One of Creation:
God brings forth Light.
In the New Testament, Jesus is the Word made flesh (John 1:14) who is the light of all men whose light shineth out darkness (John 1:4-5). For He is the light of the world (John 8:12).

2. Day Two of Creation:
God separates the Water & creates the firmament or Heavens in-between them.
In the New Testament, Jesus is baptized in water and then the Heavens open up, which begins His ministry (Matthew 3:16). Jesus is our firmament or Heaven (i.e. bridge or stairway) between that which is Heavenly above and that which is Earthy below. For Jesus is the mediator between God and men.

3. Day Three of Creation:
Dry land (including rock) appears and vegetation such as trees come forth.
In the New Testament, Jesus is the rock of our salvation (1 Corinthians 10:4) who is crucified upon a wooden cross or tree for our sins or transgressions against Him (Acts 5:30).

4. Day Four of Creation:
After three days pass by, the sun, the moon, and the stars are raised up into the sky.
In the New Testament, on the third day, Jesus who is the Son of God or the Sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) (Revelation 1:16) rises from the grave (Matthew 28:5-6), ascends to the Father up in Heaven (John 20:17) enters the Holy place, and obtains eternal redemption for us (Hebrews 9:12).

5. Day Five of Creation:
God creates marine life and the fowl of the air.
In the New Testament, Jesus is the fisher of men (Matthew 4:19) (John 21:4-8) who returns to be with his disciples for 40 days, greeting them with a meal of fish, and then leaving them back up into Heaven again like a bird going up into the sky (Acts 1:9-10) (Psalm 91:4).

6. Day Six of Creation:
God creates animals and man.
In the New Testament, through Christ's redemptive work of his death and resurrection, the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God (Romans 8:19).

7. Day Seven - After Creation:
God stops from his work, and blesses it as a weekly Sabbath rest for man.
In the New Testament, Jesus can forgive of us of our sins (1 John 2:1-2) and give us an eternal rest and Sabbath for all eternity if we choose to accept it (Matthew 11:28) (Hebrews 4:8-11). Thus restoring a broken relationship between God and man so that we may walk with Him in the light (1 John 1:7) and so that He may give us love and peace (Ephesians 3:17) (John 14:27).

This is the greatest love story ever told. Jesus, who was God Almighty in the flesh knew before the beginning of creation itself that we would sin against Him. So He came down into the flesh of a man to pay the price for our sins against Him. He died so that we could have life and so that we could have a loving and glorious fellowship with Him that is unlike any other. That is how much God loves us; And it is hidden for us to discover like a secret love letter or loving finger print right in the very beginning of Genesis.


Author source:
Myself (Well, actually it was GOD showing me this; So give praise glory unto Him through Christ Jesus).

 

[Jamdoc]

His own will as human isn't the same as to say his will as glorified, but it's not necessary to go there. The point is that even if we see them as 3 wills, it is because we see them as 3 persons. Nevertheless, the 3 are one, and one will.

But my point was about the question of whether there were actual other options. God doesn't have a plan B.

We might see a paradox where there really isn't one, comparing the statement (Matthew 26:53) that he could have had 12 legions of angels at his disposal, had he asked of the Father, with one of the proofs that he was God, in that he went through with what God had set out from the beginning to accomplish. That is, (I believe), if he had not gone through with it, he would not have been God.

Oh, absolutely there were no other options, the Father had already decided. Sin must be paid for, the cost of sin is death.
I was never suggesting there was a plan B, but only using the scenario to point out 2 different wills, rather than a singular will.
I suppose for me part of what makes a person is their own will.
So for me I see 3 wills, but all in agreement, as Bible Highlighter pointed out, Jesus suppressed omniscience, we see that in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus did not know the day or hour of His return.

I'm probably going to get flack for this but again, that's why this is controversial theology.. but to some degree I feel like just like us, Jesus got a lot of His knowledge of God and even of His own mission on Earth, from scripture. Most people are going to see it as Jesus was basically omniscient and so He knew what He had to do because He was God and that's that, or they'll believe in direct revelation by the Holy Spirit. Similar to how people believe Paul's doctrines are novel to Paul and are direct revelation by the Holy Spirit but I find much of what Paul taught in the Old Testament. In fact it bolsters my faith that I can find the doctrines Paul taught in the Old Testament. But Jesus also used the old testament to teach extensively, mostly Jesus expanded the doctrines of the Old Testament. Those expansions are profound, but Jesus wasn't conjuring doctrines out of thin air. What He talked about .. came out of scripture. Even when Jesus gave prophecy the Olivet discourse, He was referencing Old Testament eschatology, but where Jesus was different from contemporary scholars is how He put things together, and how parts of scripture that were not recognized as prophecy were considered prophecy by Jesus, a person may read a Psalm and think that's just a lovely prayer, but many of them are prophetic.
In fact, that's a large reason why we can consider the canon Old Testament scripture, because Jesus stamped His own approval on it when He referred to scripture.

But anyway, the distinction of will kind of is necessary to be a trinity where 1 will but a Father, Son and Holy Ghost gets too close to modalism actually but 3 distinct persons/wills is different than modalism.
That's also why I can look at Genesis 1 and see, 3 distinct persons at work. They are in unity, but each performs different tasks in creation, and one decrees, and another creates, obeying that decree.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

All divine action is Trinitarian action. When we confess in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds that we believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, it is not the Father at the exclusion of the Son and the Holy Spirit. For Christ is Almighty Creator, and the Spirit also Almighty Creator. Because of the interpenetrative and perichoretic realities of the Trinity, all things which are ascribed to the Father are to the Son and Spirit also; and so on. There remain those hypostatically or personally distinctives, of course: The Father alone is Father, the Son alone is Son, the Spirit alone is Spirit. Which is why we can say the Son alone became Incarnate, the Son alone has assumed humanity by His conception and birth from the Virgin Mary. But the Son is never alone, the Father is in Him even as He is in the Father; and the Spirit is in Him even as He is in the Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran

Amen the doctrine of Perichoresis (the indwelling/inter-dwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit)

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

His own will as human isn't the same as to say his will as glorified, but it's not necessary to go there. The point is that even if we see them as 3 wills, it is because we see them as 3 persons. Nevertheless, the 3 are one, and one will.

But my point was about the question of whether there were actual other options. God doesn't have a plan B.

We might see a paradox where there really isn't one, comparing the statement (Matthew 26:53) that he could have had 12 legions of angels at his disposal, had he asked of the Father, with one of the proofs that he was God, in that he went through with what God had set out from the beginning to accomplish. That is, (I believe), if he had not gone through with it, he would not have been God.

Yes God has as One Being has one will and Christ being both human and Divine has 2 wills.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Oh, absolutely there were no other options, the Father had already decided. Sin must be paid for, the cost of sin is death.
I was never suggesting there was a plan B, but only using the scenario to point out 2 different wills, rather than a singular will.
I suppose for me part of what makes a person is their own will.
So for me I see 3 wills, but all in agreement, as Bible Highlighter pointed out, Jesus suppressed omniscience, we see that in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus did not know the day or hour of His return.

I'm probably going to get flack for this but again, that's why this is controversial theology.. but to some degree I feel like just like us, Jesus got a lot of His knowledge of God and even of His own mission on Earth, from scripture. Most people are going to see it as Jesus was basically omniscient and so He knew what He had to do because He was God and that's that, or they'll believe in direct revelation by the Holy Spirit. Similar to how people believe Paul's doctrines are novel to Paul and are direct revelation by the Holy Spirit but I find much of what Paul taught in the Old Testament. In fact it bolsters my faith that I can find the doctrines Paul taught in the Old Testament. But Jesus also used the old testament to teach extensively, mostly Jesus expanded the doctrines of the Old Testament. Those expansions are profound, but Jesus wasn't conjuring doctrines out of thin air. What He talked about .. came out of scripture. Even when Jesus gave prophecy the Olivet discourse, He was referencing Old Testament eschatology, but where Jesus was different from contemporary scholars is how He put things together, and how parts of scripture that were not recognized as prophecy were considered prophecy by Jesus, a person may read a Psalm and think that's just a lovely prayer, but many of them are prophetic.
In fact, that's a large reason why we can consider the canon Old Testament scripture, because Jesus stamped His own approval on it when He referred to scripture.

But anyway, the distinction of will kind of is necessary to be a trinity where 1 will but a Father, Son and Holy Ghost gets too close to modalism actually but 3 distinct persons/wills is different than modalism.
That's also why I can look at Genesis 1 and see, 3 distinct persons at work. They are in unity, but each performs different tasks in creation, and one decrees, and another creates, obeying that decree.

In Orthodoxy the will goes with the nature not the Person. Since Christ has 2 natures (human and Divine)there are 2 wills, God has One Nature( Divine) therefor has One will. Christ is One Person, a Divine Person ( Orthodoxy ) not 2 Persons ( Nestorianism )

hope this helps !!!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Oh, absolutely there were no other options, the Father had already decided. Sin must be paid for, the cost of sin is death.
I was never suggesting there was a plan B, but only using the scenario to point out 2 different wills, rather than a singular will.
I suppose for me part of what makes a person is their own will.
So for me I see 3 wills, but all in agreement, as Bible Highlighter pointed out, Jesus suppressed omniscience, we see that in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus did not know the day or hour of His return.

I agree completely, though I would add to what @Bible Highlighter said about Jesus suppressing omniscience, in that he also suppressed many other things about God-ness—even his authority as God, relegating himself to authority only through the same means by which we have any authority —i.e. through his God.

I'm probably going to get flack for this but again, that's why this is controversial theology.. but to some degree I feel like just like us, Jesus got a lot of His knowledge of God and even of His own mission on Earth, from scripture. Most people are going to see it as Jesus was basically omniscient and so He knew what He had to do because He was God and that's that, or they'll believe in direct revelation by the Holy Spirit. Similar to how people believe Paul's doctrines are novel to Paul and are direct revelation by the Holy Spirit but I find much of what Paul taught in the Old Testament. In fact it bolsters my faith that I can find the doctrines Paul taught in the Old Testament. But Jesus also used the old testament to teach extensively, mostly Jesus expanded the doctrines of the Old Testament. Those expansions are profound, but Jesus wasn't conjuring doctrines out of thin air. What He talked about .. came out of scripture. Even when Jesus gave prophecy the Olivet discourse, He was referencing Old Testament eschatology, but where Jesus was different from contemporary scholars is how He put things together, and how parts of scripture that were not recognized as prophecy were considered prophecy by Jesus, a person may read a Psalm and think that's just a lovely prayer, but many of them are prophetic.
In fact, that's a large reason why we can consider the canon Old Testament scripture, because Jesus stamped His own approval on it when He referred to scripture.

Completely agreed. If Jesus was tempted in every way as we are, a few very disturbing (yet ultimately comforting) notions are implied. What you say here completely supports that.

But anyway, the distinction of will kind of is necessary to be a trinity where 1 will but a Father, Son and Holy Ghost gets too close to modalism actually but 3 distinct persons/wills is different than modalism.
That's also why I can look at Genesis 1 and see, 3 distinct persons at work. They are in unity, but each performs different tasks in creation, and one decrees, and another creates, obeying that decree.

Also agreed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree completely, though I would add to what @Bible Highlighter said about Jesus suppressing omniscience, in that he also suppressed many other things about God-ness—even his authority as God, relegating himself to authority only through the same means by which we have any authority —i.e. through his God.

Completely agreed. If Jesus was tempted in every way as we are, a few very disturbing (yet ultimately comforting) notions are implied. What you say here completely supports that.

Also agreed.

I agree that there was a submission of the Son to the Father because Jesus always obeyed all of the Father’s commands.
Jesus also was not sitting at the right hand of the Father (During His earthly ministry) (Granted, Jesus was in Heaven, though; See “side note” below). So Jesus did give up some level authority in the Incarnation (i.e., coming to Earth in human flesh).

As for Jesus saying, “my God, and your God” in John 20:17:

Well, I explain this in my thread here (if you did not see it):

Does God have a God? Explaining John 20:17 in Defense of the Trinity.

"Jesus saith unto her, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."" (John 20:17). Is Jesus (Who is God) really saying He has a God? In other words, does God have a God...

www.christianforums.com

I believe Jesus still had authority (During His earthly ministry).
For He held together all things by the word of His power even while on the cross according to Hebrews.
In fact, it was not ultimately the nails that held Jesus upon the cross (Although they did hold them there in a physical way).
At any moment, Jesus could have stopped and said, “I am outta of here.”
So it was not the nails that truly kept Him on the cross, but it was Lord’s love for you and me that was truly holding Him upon the cross.

Side Note:

In John 3:13: Jesus did declare to Nicodemus that He was in Heaven as they were having their conversation. This is only possible because Jesus was one with the Father. Jesus could say He was in Heaven because He is one with Him.

Side Note 2:

I do not agree with Carm’s view that Jesus worshiped God (see their article here). That to me is heretical.
God does not worship Himself.

The Bible Mini series also falsely teaches this. It has Jesus saying to the devil, “I worship the Lord my God...” (source). TLB (Living Bible) also falsely teaches this. It says, “We must worship God, and him alone.” (Luke 4:8) (TLB). This is false theology. The false view that Jesus worships God the Father.

Yes, I am aware of the verse in John 4:22. In this instance, I believe Jesus was speaking like a president would do involving his nation when it comes to certain things. What do I mean? Well, the president could make a public speech on TV and say that we gave aid to others in the State of Mississippi in hovercrafts, but that does not mean the president himself was actually on any hovercrafts. The president would only be speaking on behalf of his people (his nation) giving aid, and not himself in that instance.

 

[setst777]

I agree that there was a submission of the Son to the Father because Jesus always obeyed all of the Father’s commands.
Jesus also was not sitting at the right hand of the Father (During His earthly ministry) (Granted, Jesus was in Heaven, though; See “side note” below). So Jesus did give up some level authority in the Incarnation (i.e., coming to Earth in human flesh).

As for Jesus saying, “my God, and your God” in John 20:17:

Well, I explain this in my thread here (if you did not see it):

Does God have a God? Explaining John 20:17 in Defense of the Trinity.

"Jesus saith unto her, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."" (John 20:17). Is Jesus (Who is God) really saying He has a God? In other words, does God have a God...

www.christianforums.com

I believe Jesus still had authority (During His earthly ministry).
For He held together all things by the word of His power even while on the cross according to Hebrews.
In fact, it was not ultimately the nails that held Jesus upon the cross (Although they did hold them there in a physical way).
At any moment, Jesus could have stopped and said, “I am outta of here.”
So it was not the nails that truly kept Him on the cross, but it was Lord’s love for you and me that was truly holding Him upon the cross.

Side Note:

In John 3:13: Jesus did declare to Nicodemus that He was in Heaven as they were having their conversation. This is only possible because Jesus was one with the Father. Jesus could say He was in Heaven because He is one with Him.

Side Note 2:

I do not agree with Carm’s view that Jesus worshiped God (see their article here). That to me is heretical.
God does not worship Himself.

The Bible Mini series also falsely teaches this. It has Jesus saying to the devil, “I worship the Lord my God...” (source). TLB (Living Bible) also falsely teaches this. It says, “We must worship God, and him alone.” (Luke 4:8) (TLB). This is false theology. The false view that Jesus worships God the Father.

Yes, I am aware of the verse in John 4:22. In this instance, I believe Jesus was speaking like a president would do involving his nation when it comes to certain things. What do I mean? Well, the president could make a public speech on TV and say that we gave aid to others in the State of Mississippi in hovercrafts, but that does not mean the president himself was actually on any hovercrafts. The president would only be speaking on behalf of his people (his nation) giving aid, and not himself in that instance.

Regarding whether Lord Jesus worshipped God the Father while a humble man-servant of God the Father....

Firstly, for Lord Jesus to be that perfectly holy and righteous servant of God His Father, I believe that Lord Jesus gave complete worship to His Father with all His heart, mind, body, and soul.

Bowing down to someone is just an outward action of worship; but to actually sanctify our entire lives onto God in sacred service to him is the most genuine worship to God. Lord Jesus certainly lived his entire life in complete sanctification of His Life in all things to God the Father.

Romans 12:1-2 (Disciples Literal Translation) Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the compassions of God, to present your bodies as a living holy sacrifice pleasing to God, as your spiritual worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may be approving what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

 

[Jamdoc]

I agree that there was a submission of the Son to the Father because Jesus always obeyed all of the Father’s commands.
Jesus also was not sitting at the right hand of the Father (During His earthly ministry) (Granted, Jesus was in Heaven, though; See “side note” below). So Jesus did give up some level authority in the Incarnation (i.e., coming to Earth in human flesh).

I guess one of the things I'm attempting to point out in the thread is that God the Father is the supreme will even when Jesus is in Heaven sitting at His right hand. In Genesis 1 I am arguing that Jesus, the Word of God, obeyed the will of God the Father in creation. Jesus said that the Father was greater than He, and also...

1 Corinthians 15

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So even after the second coming, Jesus delivers the Kingdom to God the Father (after the millennium) and Jesus Himself is subject to God the Father. So it is the Father that is the ultimate supreme sovereign, even within the Godhead. "That God may be all in all" There is unity, but there is also deference.

I believe Jesus still had authority (During His earthly ministry).
For He held together all things by the word of His power even while on the cross according to Hebrews.
In fact, it was not ultimately the nails that held Jesus upon the cross (Although they did hold them there in a physical way).
At any moment, Jesus could have stopped and said, “I am outta of here.”
So it was not the nails that truly kept Him on the cross, but it was Lord’s love for you and me that was truly holding Him upon the cross.

In fact on 3 other occasions that people tried to kill Jesus twice by stoning once by throwing off a cliff (basically before the appointed time and not by the appointed method, so it wouldn't be fulfilling prophecy) Jesus actually DID "I am outta here" and escaped, and Luke 4, John 8, and John 10.. he "passed through the midst of them". Like, how does a man just walk through the middle of an angry mob clamoring to kill him?

 

[setst777]

So even after the second coming, Jesus delivers the Kingdom to God the Father (after the millennium) and Jesus Himself is subject to God the Father. So it is the Father that is the ultimate supreme sovereign, even within the Godhead. "That God may be all in all" There is unity, but there is also deference.

Lord Jesus, as God's servant, hands all things back to the Father so that God may be all in all; and yet, we know that Lord Jesus will rule forever and ever (Luke 1:30-33; Daniel 7:13-14; Isaiah 9:6-8).

Therefore, I believe this seeming contradiction is resolved in that, in the eternal state, Lord Jesus is no longer a servant of God, but will fully manifest the Father bodily in all His glory - God dwelling with His people forever sitting on His throne in the person of Lord Jesus - who is the Logos (Word) of God by whom all things are.

Psalms 132:11-14 (WEB) Yahweh has sworn to David in truth. He will not turn from it: “I will set the fruit of your body on your throne. [Acts 2:30] 12 If your children will keep my covenant, my testimony that I will teach them, their children also will sit on your throne forever more.” 13 For Yahweh has chosen Zion. He has desired it for his habitation. 14 “This is my resting place forever. I will live here, for I have desired it.

Ezekiel 43:1-9 (WEB) 7 He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell among the children of Israel forever. The house of Israel will no more defile my holy name… Then I will dwell among them forever.

Revelation 21:3 (WEB) 3 … “Behold, God’s dwelling is with his people, and he will dwell (tabernacle) with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

Revelation 21:23 (KJV) 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof (Hebrews 1:3; Ezekiel 43:1-9).

2 Samuel 22:29 (WEB) 29 For you are my lamp, Yahweh. Yahweh will light up my darkness.

Revelation 22:5 (KJV) 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God will shine upon them: and they shall reign forever and ever.

John 1:5 (WEB) 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness hasn’t overcome it.

Isaiah 60:19 (WEB) 19 The sun will be no more your light by day; nor will the brightness of the moon give light to you, but Yahweh will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.

Hebrews 1:3 (WEB) 3 His Son is the Radiance/Shining Forth of his glory, the very Image of his substance.

Isaiah 40:5, 9 (WEB) Yahweh’s glory shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken it.” … You who tell good news to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with strength! Lift it up! Don’t be afraid! Say to the cities of Judah, “Behold, your God!”

Job 19:25-26 (WEB) 25 But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives. In the end, he will stand upon the earth.
26 After my skin is destroyed, then I will see God in my flesh

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I guess one of the things I'm attempting to point out in the thread is that God the Father is the supreme will even when Jesus is in Heaven sitting at His right hand. In Genesis 1 I am arguing that Jesus, the Word of God, obeyed the will of God the Father in creation. Jesus said that the Father was greater than He, and also...

So even after the second coming, Jesus delivers the Kingdom to God the Father (after the millennium) and Jesus Himself is subject to God the Father. So it is the Father that is the ultimate supreme sovereign, even within the Godhead. "That God may be all in all" There is unity, but there is also deference.

I am not in disagreement in the fact that the Father is the head in the hierarchy in the Godhead or Trinity.
Well stated.
But I think Jesus also needs His due, as well.
At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow to the glory of God the Father.
But they are bowing to Jesus.
Jesus is also the light on the New Earth, as well (Revelation 21:23).
So Jesus is magnified.
Jesus is also the One who went to the cross actually and not the Father.
This was the most loving action on the behalf of God in human history and Jesus did it.
While the Father did reside in Jesus, it was still actually the Son who did it.
The Father sent the Son. So Jesus is to be magnified and or glorified.
So Jesus deserves His due, as well.
All three persons of the Godhead or Trinity are important and essential to our lives, and they should all be worshiped as one God.

In fact on 3 other occasions that people tried to kill Jesus twice by stoning once by throwing off a cliff (basically before the appointed time and not by the appointed method, so it wouldn't be fulfilling prophecy) Jesus actually DID "I am outta here" and escaped, and Luke 4, John 8, and John 10.. he "passed through the midst of them". Like, how does a man just walk through the middle of an angry mob clamoring to kill him?

Uh, no. That’s not what I am talking about. You’re talking about an entirely different event within Christ’s life (that was not a key aspect of Christ redeeming us). Jesus going to the cross was to save mankind. If Jesus did not go to the cross, we would all be doomed. So when I say that Jesus could have said, “I am out of here” while on the cross, my point was to show that it was not the nails keeping Him on the cross but it was His love for you and me. The situation where Jesus escaped crowds that wanted to kill Him did not relate to His actually redeeming us directly (Which happened on the cross, and with His resurrection, and ascension). Yes, the Lord’s whole life was to show He was the spotless Lamb, but He needed to be sacrificed to actually redeem us. Just being the spotless Lamb would not have helped us if He later decided not to go to the cross (Which I don’t believe was a possibility because of God’s nature).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Regarding whether Lord Jesus worshipped God the Father while a humble man-servant of God the Father....

Firstly, for Lord Jesus to be that perfectly holy and righteous servant of God His Father, I believe that Lord Jesus gave complete worship to His Father with all His heart, mind, body, and soul.

Bowing down to someone is just an outward action of worship; but to actually sanctify our entire lives onto God in sacred service to him is the most genuine worship to God. Lord Jesus certainly lived his entire life in complete sanctification of His Life in all things to God the Father.

Romans 12:1-2 (Disciples Literal Translation) Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the compassions of God, to present your bodies as a living holy sacrifice pleasing to God, as your spiritual worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may be approving what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

Find a Scripture where God worships Himself and then I will consider. So far it is nonsense to suggest that God worships Himself. The essence of worship is based on the fact that one who is created adores, bows, devotes, etc. their Creator (Savior). This is not possible for Jesus to do with the Father because Jesus is not created. Jesus is the eternal second person of the Godhead or Trinity.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I agree that there was a submission of the Son to the Father because Jesus always obeyed all of the Father’s commands.
Jesus also was not sitting at the right hand of the Father (During His earthly ministry) (Granted, Jesus was in Heaven, though; See “side note” below). So Jesus did give up some level authority in the Incarnation (i.e., coming to Earth in human flesh).

As for Jesus saying, “my God, and your God” in John 20:17:

Well, I explain this in my thread here (if you did not see it):

Does God have a God? Explaining John 20:17 in Defense of the Trinity.

"Jesus saith unto her, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."" (John 20:17). Is Jesus (Who is God) really saying He has a God? In other words, does God have a God...

www.christianforums.com

I believe Jesus still had authority (During His earthly ministry).
For He held together all things by the word of His power even while on the cross according to Hebrews.
In fact, it was not ultimately the nails that held Jesus upon the cross (Although they did hold them there in a physical way).
At any moment, Jesus could have stopped and said, “I am outta of here.”
So it was not the nails that truly kept Him on the cross, but it was Lord’s love for you and me that was truly holding Him upon the cross.

Side Note:

In John 3:13: Jesus did declare to Nicodemus that He was in Heaven as they were having their conversation. This is only possible because Jesus was one with the Father. Jesus could say He was in Heaven because He is one with Him.

Side Note 2:

I do not agree with Carm’s view that Jesus worshiped God (see their article here). That to me is heretical.
God does not worship Himself.

The Bible Mini series also falsely teaches this. It has Jesus saying to the devil, “I worship the Lord my God...” (source). TLB (Living Bible) also falsely teaches this. It says, “We must worship God, and him alone.” (Luke 4:8) (TLB). This is false theology. The false view that Jesus worships God the Father.

Yes, I am aware of the verse in John 4:22. In this instance, I believe Jesus was speaking like a president would do involving his nation when it comes to certain things. What do I mean? Well, the president could make a public speech on TV and say that we gave aid to others in the State of Mississippi in hovercrafts, but that does not mean the president himself was actually on any hovercrafts. The president would only be speaking on behalf of his people (his nation) giving aid, and not himself in that instance.

I was agreed with you up to the side note 2.

How is it heretical for Jesus' human nature to worship God? (Not that I mean to defend CARM. I think this is the first time I've even seen one of their articles. I have heard of them before, and Matt Slick, but they don't represent me.) I mean, I think I get your point, that it would be logically Jesus worshiping himself, but I don't think that is necessarily so —at worst, perhaps, Jesus' Human nature worshiping his Divine nature, awkwardly though that sits.

To me, if the human —Jesus— had a God, then worship is due his God. However, I agree it doesn't sit nicely.

 

[setst777]

Find a Scripture where God worships Himself and then I will consider. So far it is nonsense to suggest that God worships Himself. The essence of worship is based on the fact that one who is created adores, bows, devotes, etc. their Creator (Savior). This is not possible for Jesus to do with the Father because Jesus is not created. Jesus is the eternal second person of the Godhead or Trinity.

You are using human reasoning.

Does God call God, "my God"? Yes, as a man, and humble servant, the Logos calls the Father "My God."

Revelation 3:12 (WEB) 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

Can someone call God "My God" who refuses to worship God?

Bowing down to someone is just an outward action of worship; but to actually sanctify our entire lives onto God in sacred service to him is the most genuine worship to God. Lord Jesus certainly lived his entire life in complete sanctification of His Life in all things to God the Father.

Romans 12:1-2 (Disciples Literal Translation) Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the compassions of God, to present your bodies as a living holy sacrifice pleasing to God, as your spiritual worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may be approving what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

 

[setst777]

Yes God has as One Being has one will and Christ being both human and Divine has 2 wills.

Lord Jesus stressed that every work he did, and everything he taught was from the Father. Lord Jesus stated that he and the Father are one. Lord Jesus is, by nature, God (Philippians 2:6) being all The Fullness of The Deity bodily (Colossians 2:9), the Radiance of God's Glory and God's very Image by whom all things are (Hebrews 1:2-3, 10) that are from, by, and for God (Romans 11:35-36).

Therefore, I do not get the impression that the incarnate Logos had "two wills;" but rather, as a man, Lord Jesus remained in very nature God, but took upon himself the nature of a servant, in the likeness and appearance of man (Philippians 2:6-8). His "will" always remained one with the Father in every way, and that is why Lord Jesus remains the actual shining forth of God's Glory, and His very Image (Hebrews 1:3).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are using human reasoning.

Reasoning is a part of Scripture.

Isaiah 1:18
”Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”

Does God call God, "my God"? Yes, as a man, and humble servant, the Logos calls the Father "My God."

Revelation 3:12 (WEB) 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

We have to be careful here. Jesus said, “Ye are gods” (John 10:34). Does that mean we are divine beings who always existed eternally and whereby we have power to create the universe, etcetera? Surely not. If you are suggesting that Jesus has a God (in the way we do), then we are falling into the dangerous realm of Tritheism, or worse yet, denying that Jesus is God (or That He is the second person of the Godhead or Trinity).

We are separate beings from God.
God is the Creator, and Savior of mankind.
Jesus is not created and He needs no Savior.
Jesus is the Creator and the Savior.
Jesus is God.
So to say that He has a God like we have a God is not exactly true.
Yes, I know. Jesus, said, “…and to my God, and your God.” (John 20:17).
Yes, I know. Jesus said, “my God” four times in Revelation 3:12.
But we have to take a step back and look at the whole counsel of God’s Word and truly seek out what He means by these words.
Surely Jesus would not contradict how He is revealed Himself in being the second person of the Godhead or Trinity in Scripture.
For example: When Jesus says, “my Father” does that mean the same thing like as our human father? Did Jesus come into existence as the second person of the Trinity? Is God the Father His parent that brought forth Jesus into existence out of nothing? Surely not. So we cannot take the reading of, “my Father” to mean it in the way we understand that when we speak of our own dad.

When I see Jesus say, “my God” as in reference to the Father, I see these words akin to be like a “head ruler” or “king” (Who is a part of Him), sort of like when Jesus refers to the Jews as gods (rulers) in John 10:34. This does not mean the Father is a higher being to Jesus. That would suggest Tritheism. Neither is Jesus suggesting that the Father is God whereas He is not God by saying, “my God.” Jesus is God, just as much as the Father is God.

Christians are monotheists. They believe in one God. So we must keep this in mind when Jesus makes these kinds of statements.
The Trinity would be fractured if Jesus had a God in the same sense that we would say, “my God.”
It’s different for us when we say, “my God.” because we also mean this to mean that He is our Creator and Savior (Along with being our ruler and king). But when Jesus says this, it must mean more akin to being like a ruler alone because Jesus was not created and He needs no Savior. Jesus does not reverence any Creator and Savior in the same way we do.

Can someone call God "My God" who refuses to worship God?

Bowing down to someone is just an outward action of worship; but to actually sanctify our entire lives onto God in sacred service to him is the most genuine worship to God. Lord Jesus certainly lived his entire life in complete sanctification of His Life in all things to God the Father.

Romans 12:1-2 (Disciples Literal Translation) Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the compassions of God, to present your bodies as a living holy sacrifice pleasing to God, as your spiritual worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may be approving what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

Yes, we do have to offer our bodies in sacrifice to God as a part of our spiritual worship. But when we do this… we are doing so with the view that HE is the Creator, and Savior and we are nothing but the creation who is in reverence to Him. This is just not possible for the Son of God because He is the second person who is in essence a part of the one true triune Godhead. Again, I challenge you to look to find a verse where the Bible says that God worships Himself. You just will not find such a verse or passage. Worship is always the creation worshiping the Creator or Savior.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Lord Jesus stressed that every work he did, and everything he taught was from the Father. Lord Jesus stated that he and the Father are one. Lord Jesus is, by nature, God (Philippians 2:6) being all The Fullness of The Deity bodily (Colossians 2:9), the Radiance of God's Glory and God's very Image by whom all things are (Hebrews 1:2-3, 10) that are from, by, and for God (Romans 11:35-36).

Therefore, I do not get the impression that the incarnate Logos had "two wills;" but rather, as a man, Lord Jesus remained in very nature God, but took upon himself the nature of a servant, in the likeness and appearance of man (Philippians 2:6-8). His "will" always remained one with the Father in every way, and that is why Lord Jesus remains the actual shining forth of God's Glory, and His very Image (Hebrews 1:3).

I would agree that Jesus did not have two wills.
This would suggest that Jesus had two minds if such were the case.
I believe Jesus’ Omniscience was suppressed during His earthly ministry and this set up our Lord in being limited in knowledge and relying upon the Father for guidance.

 

[setst777]

Yes, we do have to offer our bodies in sacrifice to God as a part of our spiritual worship. But when we do this… we are doing so with the view that HE is the Creator, and Savior and we are nothing but the creation who is in reverence to Him. This is just not possible for the Son of God because He is the second person who is in essence a part of the one true triune Godhead. Again, I challenge you to look to find a verse where the Bible says that God worships Himself. You just will not find such a verse or passage. Worship is always the creation worshiping the Creator or Savior.

Lord Jesus did give spiritual worship to God the Father with his entire being as a humble man-servant of God. Lord Jesus did not pretend that the Father was His God; rather, as a man, in every sense of the word "worship," Lord Jesus gave everything to God, and glorified the Father by his totally submissive life even onto death. Yes, he remained God in very nature, but he also took upon himself the very nature of a servant, as a man before God His Father in perfect obedience and love.

We have to be careful here. Jesus said, “Ye are gods” (John 10:34). Does that mean we are divine beings who always existed eternally and whereby we have power to create the universe, etcetera? Surely not. If you are suggesting that Jesus has a God (in the way we do), then we are falling into the dangerous realm of Tritheism, or worse yet, denying that Jesus is God (or That He is the second person of the Godhead or Trinity).

We are separate beings from God.
God is the Creator, and Savior of mankind.
Jesus is not created and He needs no Savior.
Jesus is the Creator and the Savior.
Jesus is God.
So to say that He has a God like we have a God is not exactly true.
Yes, I know. Jesus, said, “…and to my God, and your God.” (John 20:17).
Yes, I know. Jesus said, “my God” four times in Revelation 3:12.
But we have to take a step back and look at the whole counsel of God’s Word and truly seek out what He means by these words.
Surely Jesus would not contradict how He is revealed Himself in being the second person of the Godhead or Trinity in Scripture.
For example: When Jesus says, “my Father” does that mean the same thing like as our human father? Did Jesus come into existence as the second person of the Trinity? Is God the Father His parent that brought forth Jesus into existence out of nothing? Surely not. So we cannot take the reading of, “my Father” to mean it in the way we understand that when we speak of our own dad.

When I see Jesus say, “my God” as in reference to the Father, I see these words akin to be like a “head ruler” or “king” (Who is a part of Him), sort of like when Jesus refers to the Jews as gods (rulers) in John 10:34. This does not mean the Father is a higher being to Jesus. That would suggest Tritheism. Neither is Jesus suggesting that the Father is God whereas He is not God by saying, “my God.” Jesus is God, just as much as the Father is God.

Christians are monotheists. They believe in one God. So we must keep this in mind when Jesus makes these kinds of statements.
The Trinity would be fractured if Jesus had a God in the same sense that we would say, “my God.”
It’s different for us when we say, “my God.”


Yes, we do have to offer our bodies in sacrifice to God as a part of our spiritual worship. But when we do this… we are doing so with the view that HE is the Creator, and Savior and we are nothing but the creation who is in reverence to Him. This is just not possible for the Son of God because He is the second person who is in essence a part of the one true triune Godhead. Again, I challenge you to look to find a verse where the Bible says that God worships Himself. You just will not find such a verse or passage. Worship is always the creation worshiping the Creator or Savior.

One God, three persons - not one person. The Word of God (Revelation 19:13) The Logos (John 1:1) emptied himself and took upon himself the nature of a servant in human likeness, and humbled himself, as a man, before God the Father. As a man, Lord Jesus lived as a humble servant of God, His Father for the sake of the Gospel.

He had to become that perfect Adam, and accomplish what we were not able to do, and so become, as a man, that holy Mediator between God and Man. Lord Jesus, as a man definitely prayed to, obeyed, lived in submission to, and so worshipped God His Father in righteousness and love.

All the other stuff you wrote is a smokescreen for the obvious fact that Lord Jesus became that perfect man for us, and was crucified for our sins, so that those who believe and follow him may receive forgiveness, justification, and salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

One God, three persons - not one person.

No argument here. I don’t believe in Modalism.
I believe the Lord our God exists as three distinct persons and yet He also exists as one God.
Some groups believe the Trinity is three persons but they act in accord as one God (But what they really are saying is that He is not actually physically one God in substance).
This is false, and that would be more akin to Tritheism.
Christians are monotheists. We believe God literally is one God (Not in unity but in substance). There literally is only ONE God and yet this ONE God also exists as three distinct persons (i.e., the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost - 1 John 5:7).

To get a flavor of how Jesus is the second person of the Trinity always in substance is shown to us in John 3:13. Jesus says,

”And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
(John 3:13).

Did you catch it?
Jesus is telling Nicodemus that the Son of Man (Jesus) is in Heaven right now at the very moment He is talking to Nicodemus.
How is this so?
Well, Jesus is one with the Father.
Jesus said He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him.
When the disciples asked to see the Father, Jesus was telling them that they did see Him already because of Him.
This is because they are connected as one God in substance.

The Word of God (Revelation 19:13) The Logos (John 1:1) emptied himself

No. Jesus did not empty Himself. I believe that comes from an incorrect translation on Philippians 2:7.

How so?

Well, Jesus had power as God (During His earthly ministry):

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).​

#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.​

#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).​

#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).​

#5 Jesus had the power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).​

#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.​

#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).​

#8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).​

A more accurate translation on Philippians 2:7 says,

”But made himself of no reputation,​

and took upon him the form of a servant,​

and was made in the likeness of men:” (Philippians 2:7).​

He had to become that perfect Adam, and accomplish what were not able to do, and so become, as a man, that holy Mediator between God and Man. Lord Jesus, as a man definitely prayed to, obeyed, lived in submission to, and so worshipped God His Father in righteousness and love.

Jesus was also worshiped and He was said to be God. You cannot be God if you don’t have the power of God.
That would be like Superman giving up his powers and living his life as Clark Kent and then later claiming to be Superman with no powers as Superman. He is simply no longer Superman because he has no super abilities to back up that claim anymore.

All the other stuff you wrote is a smokescreen for the obvious fact that Lord Jesus became that perfect man for us, and was crucified for our sins, so that those who believe and follow him may receive forgiveness, justification, and salvation.

Jesus did not have to be perfect in every way we are perfectly human. If such was the case He would have to have a human father, and not be eternal, etcetera, etcetera. Yes, Jesus was physically human and He had real flesh and blood and bones just like we do. Jesus physical flesh and blood body can be traced all the way back to Adam (through Mary’s line). Jesus is God and so that breaks the mold that He had to be perfectly human as us in every precise way (Although he was human physically). For example: Jesus did not need a human father like us.