God's sovereignty and the role of the Trinity in Genesis 1

[Bible Highlighter]

Lord Jesus did give spiritual worship to God the Father with his entire being as a humble man-servant of God.

No, He didn’t. God does not worship Himself and there is no verse in Scripture that says such a thing.

Lord Jesus did not pretend that the Father was His God;

I believe the word is more akin to being a ruler and not in the way we would say, “God” when we think of the one true God.
Jesus again was not created and He needed no Savior.

rather, as a man, in every sense of the word "worship," Lord Jesus gave everything to God, and glorified the Father by his totally submissive life even onto death.

Again, if this is the case, you need to make a biblical case that is rock solid that Jesus clearly worshiped God the Father. If this would be the case, then it would make sense that the Scriptures would support the idea that God worships Himself. But alas, you will not really find any such verses because it is totally illogical to make such a claim.

The created worships the Creator.
Those in need of a Savior worship the Savior God.

 

[setst777]

No, He didn’t. God does not worship Himself and there is no verse in Scripture that says such a thing.


I believe the word is more akin to being a ruler and not in the way we would say, “God” when we think of the one true God.
Jesus again was not created and He needed no Savior.

Again, if this is the case, you need to make a biblical case that is rock solid that Jesus clearly worshiped God the Father. If this would be the case, then it would make sense that the Scriptures would support the idea that God worships Himself. But alas, you will not really find any such verses because it is totally illogical to make such a claim.

The created worships the Creator.
Those in need of a Savior worship the Savior God.

Lord Jesus, as a humble man-servant of God, his entire life was worship to God the Father, having glorified the Father by his life. His life is an example of the true worship we are to give to the Father, and so, we are to follow in his footsteps to give that same worship to God. But you choose to believe total submission and obedience to God is not worship.

Sure, you say God does not really mean "God," and Lord Jesus total submissive and obedient life to God his Father is not really worship (Romans 12:1-2), but you have to reinterpret words and texts in Scripture to mean something else.

The Church teaches and recognizes what the Scriptures relay to us, that Lord Jesus is fully God and fully man. Not 30% or 40% man, he was man in every way, and was tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin.

I wish you would except what the Scriptures actually teach instead of reinterpreting it to make it fit into your belief system, but if wishes were fishes we would all have a fry. It is impossible to have a conversation about God's word if the person you are discussing doctrine with reinterprets the words of Scripture. So, I will bow out of any further conversation with you on this topic. I wish you well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Lord Jesus, as a humble man-servant of God,

Jesus is God and He also used His own natural power in being God during His earthly ministry.
Jesus said He could raise the dead just as the Father could.
So one has to look at the whole counsel of God’s Word here.

his entire life was worship to God the Father,

This is your claim and not what Scripture says, my friend (Unless of course your favoring just one verse that is falsely translated).

having glorified the Father by his life.

Yes, Jesus did glorify God the Father by taking on human flesh, and by obeying Him.
This is only natural and or possible because Jesus is God incarnate.

His life is an example of the true worship we are to give to the Father,

We are to follow Christ’s moral conduct, but Jesus did not worship God the Father as the sole Creator, and Savior of mankind.
That’s what worship is. Try looking up the word “worship” and look at its many occurrences in the Bible and see how it is used in context. While BlueLetterBible is a nice bible search site (and I use it to access the Strong’s), I do like PureBibleSearch for more deeper searches. For example: To search the word “worship” and its variations in the Bible, check out the following link below and click on the search button. Then type in the word “worship” and then add a * symbol after the word (Shift 8).

Example: worship*

King James Pure Bible Search WebChannel Server

It will show you all the variations of the word “worship” in the Bible like “worship, worshiped,“ etcetera.

If you were to do that, you would see that such a word is used primarily in context of men reverencing God (Which many times took place on their knees). Yes, I am not denying a person can vainly worship God by holding to false man made commands (Matthew 15:9), and I am not denying we can revere God as the Creator and Savior (i.e., worship) in our actions like in Colossians 3:17, but the point here is that the word “worship” is primarily used in reverencing God in who He is (In special times of devotion or kneeling before Him).

Webster’s says,

The act of paying divine honors to the Supreme Being; religious reverence and homage; adoration, or acts of reverence, paid to God, or a being viewed as God. The worship of God is an eminent part of religion, and prayer is a chief part of religious worship.

Source:

Worship | Definition of Worship by Webster's Online Dictionary

Looking for definition of Worship? Worship explanation. Define Worship by Webster's Dictionary, WordNet Lexical Database, Dictionary of Computing, Legal Dictionary, Medical Dictionary, Dream Dictionary.

webster-dictionary.org

and so, we are to follow in his footsteps to give that same worship to God. But you choose to believe total submission and obedience to God is not worship.

Sure, you say God does not really mean "God," and Lord Jesus total submissive and obedient life to God his Father is not really worship (Romans 12:1-2), but you have to reinterpret words and texts in Scripture to mean something else.

The Church teaches and recognizes what the Scriptures relay to us, that Lord Jesus is fully God and fully man. Not 30% or 40% man, he was man in every way, and was tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin.

I wish you would except what the Scriptures actually teach instead of reinterpreting it to make it fit into your belief system, but if wishes were fishes we would all have a fry. It is impossible to have a conversation about God's word if the person you are discussing doctrine with reinterprets the words of Scripture. So, I will bow out of any further conversation with you on this topic. I wish you well.

Certain translations mention the word “worship” in Romans 12:1. This is not a correct translation. While it is true we can revere God by our actions, this is not what this verse is saying. It says “reasonable service” (KJB), and not worship. Again, look at how that word is primarily used In the Bible. It is primarily about reverencing God and this would obviously be reverencing Him as the Creator and Savior (Which is not something Jesus is capable of doing because He IS the Creator and Savior).

While I have misunderstood Scripture myself before, the problem in our wrong way of thinking on Scripture comes about when we tend to just base our belief off just one or two verses (that could be translated wrong).

We have to look at the whole counsel of God’s Word on this matter and see how that word primarily is used.
Think. It does not make sense that God would worship Himself.
Only the creation worships the Creator.
Jesus sits at the right hand of God the Father, and it is not some kneeling area.

Anyways, we can agree to disagree in love and respect.
I wish you well, too.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you beyond all measure.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sure, you say God does not really mean "God," and Lord Jesus total submissive and obedient life to God his Father is not really worship (Romans 12:1-2), but you have to reinterpret words and texts in Scripture to mean something else.

The Church teaches and recognizes what the Scriptures relay to us, that Lord Jesus is fully God and fully man. Not 30% or 40% man, he was man in every way, and was tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin.

The Bible has homonyms within it. These are words that look and sound the same but they have different meanings based on the context.

An example of a homonym:

“The bark of the dog echoed up the tree at the squirrel​

who was hanging on the bark of the tree at the top near the branches.”​

The word "bark" is the same word in spelling and pronunciation, but they each have two different meanings. These homonyms exist both in our English bibles and in the original languages. So the word "God" (and its variations) can have multiple meanings in the Bible. The context determines it's use. For example: “sons of God” can refer to angels, and it can refer to believers. It depends on the context.

As I pointed out before, John 10:34 is a perfect example of the word “gods” meaning “rulers” and not “God” in the normal way we would understand that word. We understand the word “God” to mean the Creator, Savior, and the sole Ruler over all things. Jesus could not acknowledge God the Father as the only Creator because Jesus created everything. Jesus could not regard the Father as the sole Savior of mankind because Jesus was the One who became our Savior. Jesus could not regard God the Father as having all authority because Jesus Himself is given all power or authority (Matthew 28:18). Jesus held everything together by the word of His power when He was on the cross (Hebrews 1:3). Jesus has power. He is God. To say Jesus worships in the same way as man is a misrepresentation of His deity or natural state in being God Almighty (Second person of the Trinity or Godhead). Could I be wrong? Sure, but there would have to be some really good verses to convince me otherwise and it cannot be verses that render the text wrong (on the part of some misinformed translator).

 

[Jamdoc]

I am not in disagreement in the fact that the Father is the head in the hierarchy in the Godhead or Trinity.
Well stated.
But I think Jesus also needs His due, as well.
At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow to the glory of God the Father.
But they are bowing to Jesus.
Jesus is also the light on the New Earth, as well (Revelation 21:23).
So Jesus is magnified.
Jesus is also the One who went to the cross actually and not the Father.
This was the most loving action on the behalf of God in human history and Jesus did it.
While the Father did reside in Jesus, it was still actually the Son who did it.
The Father sent the Son. So Jesus is to be magnified and or glorified.
So Jesus deserves His due, as well.
All three persons of the Godhead or Trinity are important and essential to our lives, and they should all be worshiped as one God.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not saying that because Jesus obeys God the Father that it diminishes Jesus, it's Jesus that's going to be our King, the one that we directly see and interact with. It's through Jesus that all our blessings are given, He's the direct causative agent both in creation and in ruling eternity. God the Father made the decision, and God the Son executes the decision.

Maybe it's crude to term it like this but it's almost like the 3 branches of Government, now God's not an elected body, but the Father operates like a legislative branch in that He makes the decisions, He establishes the laws. God the Son is like the executive branch, He executes the decisions of the Father. That is what I'm seeing with Genesis 1, that is what I'm seeing with all the scripture identifying Jesus as being the person who did the acts of creation, that is what I'm seeing with Jesus' ministry on Earth (Him being the agent that atones for sin, but it was the Father's decision for that to happen). I'm not sure how to fit the Holy Spirit into this analogy, and again, I apologize for its crudeness but it's something I'm more familiar with so it's what I have the terminology for. I couldn't really say the Holy Spirit is like the supreme court, because all 3 are the Judge.

Uh, no. That’s not what I am talking about. You’re talking about an entirely different event within Christ’s life (that was not a key aspect of Christ redeeming us). Jesus going to the cross was to save mankind. If Jesus did not go to the cross, we would all be doomed. So when I say that Jesus could have said, “I am out of here” while on the cross, my point was to show that it was not the nails keeping Him on the cross but it was His love for you and me. The situation where Jesus escaped crowds that wanted to kill Him did not relate to His actually redeeming us directly (Which happened on the cross, and with His resurrection, and ascension). Yes, the Lord’s whole life was to show He was the spotless Lamb, but He needed to be sacrificed to actually redeem us. Just being the spotless Lamb would not have helped us if He later decided not to go to the cross (Which I don’t believe was a possibility because of God’s nature).

I was referring to those events to show that yes, Jesus was capable of getting off the cross and walking away from it all. Jesus obeyed the will of the Father to die on that day, in that way.
When other attempts on His life were made that were not in accordance with His Father's will, Jesus managed to get away, in a way that.. I'm not sure I understand. The text says He passed through their midst. So you have an angry mob picking up stones and He just.... walks right through them and avoids it, or an angry mob that cornered Him up on a high hill to throw Him off a cliff, and He just, passed through their midst and escaped. If I had an angry mob after me I couldn't just pass through their midst and escape while cornered on a cliff.

 

[Jamdoc]

Lord Jesus, as God's servant, hands all things back to the Father so that God may be all in all; and yet, we know that Lord Jesus will rule forever and ever (Luke 1:30-33; Daniel 7:13-14; Isaiah 9:6-8).

Therefore, I believe this seeming contradiction is resolved in that, in the eternal state, Lord Jesus is no longer a servant of God, but will fully manifest the Father bodily in all His glory - God dwelling with His people forever sitting on His throne in the person of Lord Jesus - who is the Logos (Word) of God by whom all things are.

Psalms 132:11-14 (WEB) Yahweh has sworn to David in truth. He will not turn from it: “I will set the fruit of your body on your throne. [Acts 2:30] 12 If your children will keep my covenant, my testimony that I will teach them, their children also will sit on your throne forever more.” 13 For Yahweh has chosen Zion. He has desired it for his habitation. 14 “This is my resting place forever. I will live here, for I have desired it.

Ezekiel 43:1-9 (WEB) 7 He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell among the children of Israel forever. The house of Israel will no more defile my holy name… Then I will dwell among them forever.

Revelation 21:3 (WEB) 3 … “Behold, God’s dwelling is with his people, and he will dwell (tabernacle) with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

Revelation 21:23 (KJV) 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof (Hebrews 1:3; Ezekiel 43:1-9).

2 Samuel 22:29 (WEB) 29 For you are my lamp, Yahweh. Yahweh will light up my darkness.

Revelation 22:5 (KJV) 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God will shine upon them: and they shall reign forever and ever.

John 1:5 (WEB) 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness hasn’t overcome it.

Isaiah 60:19 (WEB) 19 The sun will be no more your light by day; nor will the brightness of the moon give light to you, but Yahweh will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.

Hebrews 1:3 (WEB) 3 His Son is the Radiance/Shining Forth of his glory, the very Image of his substance.

Isaiah 40:5, 9 (WEB) Yahweh’s glory shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken it.” … You who tell good news to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with strength! Lift it up! Don’t be afraid! Say to the cities of Judah, “Behold, your God!”

Job 19:25-26 (WEB) 25 But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives. In the end, he will stand upon the earth.
26 After my skin is destroyed, then I will see God in my flesh

so you are believing that after the Eternal state that there are no longer 3 separate persons in the Godhead but it is simply one?

 

[Der Alte]

The Bible has homonyms within it. These are words that look and sound the same but they have different meanings based on the context.
An example of a homonym:

“The bark of the dog echoed up the tree at the squirrel​

who was hanging on the bark of the tree at the top near the branches.”​

The word "bark" is the same word in spelling and pronunciation, but they each have two different meanings. These homonyms exist both in our English bibles and in the original languages. So the word "God" (and its variations) can have multiple meanings in the Bible. The context determines it's use. For example: “sons of God” can refer to angels, and it can refer to believers. It depends on the context.
As I pointed out before, John 10:34 is a perfect example of the word “gods” meaning “rulers” and not “God” in the normal way we would understand that word. We understand the word “God” to mean the Creator, Savior, and the sole Ruler over all things. Jesus could not acknowledge God the Father as the only Creator because Jesus created everything. Jesus could not regard the Father as the sole Savior of mankind because Jesus was the One who became our Savior. Jesus could not regard God the Father as having all authority because Jesus Himself is given all power or authority (Matthew 28:18). Jesus held everything together by the word of His power when He was on the cross (Hebrews 1:3). Jesus has power. He is God. To say Jesus worships in the same way as man is a misrepresentation of His deity or natural state in being God Almighty (Second person of the Trinity or Godhead). Could I be wrong? Sure, but there would have to be some really good verses to convince me otherwise and it cannot be verses that render the text wrong (on the part of some misinformed translator).

A grammatical issue which is almost always ignored is that in both Psalm 82 and John 10 it does not say "You are gods." It is qualified, "I have said you are gods." God only said they were gods, He did not make them deities with godlike powers.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not saying that because Jesus obeys God the Father that it diminishes Jesus, it's Jesus that's going to be our King, the one that we directly see and interact with. It's through Jesus that all our blessings are given, He's the direct causative agent both in creation and in ruling eternity. God the Father made the decision, and God the Son executes the decision.

All authority or power is given to Jesus (Matthew 28:18).
Jesus held all things together by the word of HIS power when He was on the cross (Hebrews 1:3).
The Lamb becomes the light forever and there is no need for the sun anymore. There will be no more darkness and it will be the Lamb (Jesus). Yes, I do see the Father in this, as well. No doubt about it. But Jesus is uplifted greatly in Scripture and I believe He is worthy of His due. It’s not like we by-pass Jesus just to get to the Father. Both persons of the Godhead are worthy of our reverence.

Maybe it's crude to term it like this but it's almost like the 3 branches of Government, now God's not an elected body, but the Father operates like a legislative branch in that He makes the decisions, He establishes the laws. God the Son is like the executive branch, He executes the decisions of the Father. That is what I'm seeing with Genesis 1, that is what I'm seeing with all the scripture identifying Jesus as being the person who did the acts of creation, that is what I'm seeing with Jesus' ministry on Earth (Him being the agent that atones for sin, but it was the Father's decision for that to happen). I'm not sure how to fit the Holy Spirit into this analogy, and again, I apologize for its crudeness but it's something I'm more familiar with so it's what I have the terminology for. I couldn't really say the Holy Spirit is like the supreme court, because all 3 are the Judge.

I don’t think there is an earthly branch of government that truly captures the complexity of the Trinity or Godhead.

I was referring to those events to show that yes, Jesus was capable of getting off the cross and walking away from it all. Jesus obeyed the will of the Father to die on that day, in that way.
When other attempts on His life were made that were not in accordance with His Father's will, Jesus managed to get away, in a way that.. I'm not sure I understand. The text says He passed through their midst. So you have an angry mob picking up stones and He just.... walks right through them and avoids it, or an angry mob that cornered Him up on a high hill to throw Him off a cliff, and He just, passed through their midst and escaped. If I had an angry mob after me I couldn't just pass through their midst and escape while cornered on a cliff.

I understand that Jesus escaped angry mobs. That is not related to the point I made, my friend. The point was that Jesus did not escape the cross (even though that was within His power to do so - even while He was on the cross). There is a big difference between Jesus escaping angry mobs and His being on the cross. Jesus did not escape the cross. That’s the point I was making. It was not the nails that held them there ultimately (even though they did hold Him there on the cross on a physical level). It was Christ’s choice to remain there upon the cross because He had power to escape from off the cross if He so desired. But He did not do that because He loved us. Bringing up how Jesus escaped angry mobs does not relate in any way to my point because those events where not directly dealing with our salvation like with the cross.

Do you believe Jesus dying for our sins is related to our salvation?
Do you see Jesus escaping angry mobs as the same thing as the cross?
Not that such a thing would have ever happen, but do you believe that if He did not go to the cross, we would all be doomed?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A grammatical issue which is almost always ignored is that in both Psalm 82 and John 10 it does not say "You are gods." It is qualified, "I have said you are gods." God only said they were gods, He did not make them deities with godlike powers.

Right, my whole point was to show that Jesus was not referring to the Israelites as having godlike powers. He was merely quoting the Word that talked about the Israelites being rulers (which was a homonym for god, little “g”).

 

[setst777]

so you are believing that after the Eternal state that there are no longer 3 separate persons in the Godhead but it is simply one?

No, there are still three persons; however, the Logos of God, who is now Lord Jesus, will fully manifest God in bodily form forever dwelling with His people, because the Logos is the Image of the Invisible God and the Brightness of God's glory.

God the Father is Spirit, invisible, and fills all things (Jeremiah 23:24; Psalms 139:7-12; 1 Kings 8:27; Isaiah 66:1; Acts 17:28).
The Logos, is the Image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), the Shining Forth of God's Glory (Hebrews 1:3).
The Logos came forth from the Father (John 1:18; John 8:42) to manifest God bodily (Colossians 1:19; 2:9) and to work out all things that are from God the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6).

The invisible God who fills all things (Jeremiah 23:24; Psalms 139:7-12; 1 Kings 8:27; Isaiah 66:1; Acts 17:28), will forever dwell with His people in the New Jerusalem in the person of Lord Jesus (Psalms 132:13-14; Revelation 21:23-24; Revelation 22:5; Psalms 68:16-18/Ephesians 4:7-12; Isaiah 60:19-20; Ezekiel 43:1-9), the Word of God made flesh (John 1:14-18).

The Logos, who is made Son of David (Luke 1:30-35), still remains the brightness of God’s glory and God’s Image (Hebrews 1:3) whom also the OT saints heard and saw. He is all God’s fullness dwelling bodily (Colossians 1:19; 2:9) through whom all things are (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; 1 Corinthians 8:6) that are from, through, and for God (Romans 11:35-36).

 

[setst777]

Jesus is God and He also used His own natural power in being God during His earthly ministry.
Jesus said He could raise the dead just as the Father could.
So one has to look at the whole counsel of God’s Word here.



This is your claim and not what Scripture says, my friend (Unless of course your favoring just one verse that is falsely translated).



Yes, Jesus did glorify God the Father by taking on human flesh, and by obeying Him.
This is only natural and or possible because Jesus is God incarnate.



We are to follow Christ’s moral conduct, but Jesus did not worship God the Father as the sole Creator, and Savior of mankind.
That’s what worship is. Try looking up the word “worship” and look at its many occurrences in the Bible and see how it is used in context. While BlueLetterBible is a nice bible search site (and I use it to access the Strong’s), I do like PureBibleSearch for more deeper searches. For example: To search the word “worship” and its variations in the Bible, check out the following link below and click on the search button. Then type in the word “worship” and then add a * symbol after the word (Shift 8).

Example: worship*

King James Pure Bible Search WebChannel Server

It will show you all the variations of the word “worship” in the Bible like “worship, worshiped,“ etcetera.

If you were to do that, you would see that such a word is used primarily in context of men reverencing God (Which many times took place on their knees). Yes, I am not denying a person can vainly worship God by holding to false man made commands (Matthew 15:9), and I am not denying we can revere God as the Creator and Savior (i.e., worship) in our actions like in Colossians 3:17, but the point here is that the word “worship” is primarily used in reverencing God in who He is (In special times of devotion or kneeling before Him).

Webster’s says,

The act of paying divine honors to the Supreme Being; religious reverence and homage; adoration, or acts of reverence, paid to God, or a being viewed as God. The worship of God is an eminent part of religion, and prayer is a chief part of religious worship.

Source:

Worship | Definition of Worship by Webster's Online Dictionary

Looking for definition of Worship? Worship explanation. Define Worship by Webster's Dictionary, WordNet Lexical Database, Dictionary of Computing, Legal Dictionary, Medical Dictionary, Dream Dictionary.

webster-dictionary.org

Certain translations mention the word “worship” in Romans 12:1. This is not a correct translation. While it is true we can revere God by our actions, this is not what this verse is saying. It says “reasonable service” (KJB), and not worship. Again, look at how that word is primarily used In the Bible. It is primarily about reverencing God and this would obviously be reverencing Him as the Creator and Savior (Which is not something Jesus is capable of doing because He IS the Creator and Savior).

While I have misunderstood Scripture myself before, the problem in our wrong way of thinking on Scripture comes about when we tend to just base our belief off just one or two verses (that could be translated wrong).

We have to look at the whole counsel of God’s Word on this matter and see how that word primarily is used.
Think. It does not make sense that God would worship Himself.
Only the creation worships the Creator.
Jesus sits at the right hand of God the Father, and it is not some kneeling area.

Anyways, we can agree to disagree in love and respect.
I wish you well, too.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you beyond all measure.

Everything Lord Jesus said and did as a humble servant of God on earth was all from the Father.

Jesus was made Lord by the Father (Acts 2:36)

The Father gave Jesus to have life in himself:

John 5:26-27 (WEB) 26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself. 27 He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a Son of Man.

All things that Lord Jesus said and did was from the Father.

John 5:36 (WEB) 36 But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John, for the works which the Father gave me to accomplish, the very works that I do, testify about me, that the Father has sent me.

John 8:26 (WEB) 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you. However he who sent me is true; and the things which I heard from him, these I say to the world.”

John 12:49 (WEB) 49 For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak

John 8:28-29 (WEB) 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 8:42 (WEB) 42 Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven’t come of myself, but he sent me.

John 10:37 (WEB) 37 If I don’t do the works of my Father, don’t believe me. 38 But if I do them, though you don’t believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

 

[setst777]

Right, my whole point was to show that Jesus was not referring to the Israelites as have godlike powers. He was merely quoting the Word that talked about the Israelites being rulers (which was a homonym for god, little “g”).

Actually, your point was to show that God the Father was not really God the Father whom Lord Jesus submitted to in worship with his entire life as a real man, but was a play on words to mean godlike, as others were called gods, and that Jesus was not really a man because he was born of a virgin, in response to my post as follows:

setst777 said:
Sure, you say God does not really mean "God," and Lord Jesus total submissive and obedient life to God his Father is not really worship (Romans 12:1-2), but you have to reinterpret words and texts in Scripture to mean something else.

The Church teaches and recognizes what the Scriptures relay to us, that Lord Jesus is fully God and fully man. Not 30% or 40% man, he was man in every way, and was tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin.

 

[Jamdoc]

All authority or power is given to Jesus (Matthew 28:18).
Jesus held all things together by the word of HIS power when He was on the cross (Hebrews 1:3).
The Lamb becomes the light forever and there is no need for the sun anymore. There will be no more darkness and it will be the Lamb (Jesus). Yes, I do see the Father in this, as well. No doubt about it. But Jesus is uplifted greatly in Scripture and I believe He is worthy of His due. It’s not like we by-pass Jesus just to get to the Father. Both persons of the Godhead are worthy of our reverence.



I don’t think there is an earthly branch of government that truly captures the complexity of the Trinity or Godhead.


I understand that Jesus escaped angry mobs. That is not related to the point I made, my friend. The point was that Jesus did not escape the cross (even though that was within His power to do so - even while He was on the cross). There is a big difference between Jesus escaping angry mobs and His being on the cross. Jesus did not escape the cross. That’s the point I was making. It was not the nails that held them there ultimately (even though they did hold Him there on the cross on a physical level). It was Christ’s choice to remain there upon the cross because He had power to escape from off the cross if He so desired. But He did not do that because He loved us. Bringing up how Jesus escaped angry mobs does not relate in any way to my point because those events where not directly dealing with our salvation like with the cross.

Do you believe Jesus dying for our sins is related to our salvation?
Do you see Jesus escaping angry mobs as the same thing as the cross?
Not that such a thing would have ever happen, but do you believe that if He did not go to the cross, we would all be doomed?

I think you're missing my point which was agreeing that Jesus could have gotten off the cross and walked away from it, those other times were evidence that Jesus was capable of escaping any attempt on His life that He wanted to. On the cross He just chose not to, to obey the Father.

He had the ability to, but doing so would have been against His Father's will, so He chose to give up His life for sinners.
His life couldn't be taken
He had to give it up.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, there are still three persons; however, the Logos of God, who is now Lord Jesus, will fully manifest God in bodily form forever dwelling with His people, because the Logos is the Image of the Invisible God and the Brightness of God's glory.

God the Father is Spirit, invisible, and fills all things (Jeremiah 23:24; Psalms 139:7-12; 1 Kings 8:27; Isaiah 66:1; Acts 17:28).
The Logos, is the Image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), the Shining Forth of God's Glory (Hebrews 1:3).
The Logos came forth from the Father (John 1:18; John 8:42) to manifest God bodily (Colossians 1:19; 2:9) and to work out all things that are from God the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6).

The invisible God who fills all things (Jeremiah 23:24; Psalms 139:7-12; 1 Kings 8:27; Isaiah 66:1; Acts 17:28), will forever dwell with His people in the New Jerusalem in the person of Lord Jesus (Psalms 132:13-14; Revelation 21:23-24; Revelation 22:5; Psalms 68:16-18/Ephesians 4:7-12; Isaiah 60:19-20; Ezekiel 43:1-9), the Word of God made flesh (John 1:14-18).

The Logos, who is made Son of David (Luke 1:30-35), still remains the brightness of God’s glory and God’s Image (Hebrews 1:3) whom also the OT saints heard and saw. He is all God’s fullness dwelling bodily (Colossians 1:19; 2:9) through whom all things are (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; 1 Corinthians 8:6) that are from, through, and for God (Romans 11:35-36).

Do you believe the Trinity (Godhead) to be three distinct persons in unity only (kind of like a family unit)?
Or do you believe the Trinity (Godhead) to be defined as “He exists as three distinct persons and yet He is one God in substance (Meaning that He literally is one God, mathematically speaking)”?

Do you believe Jesus had ZERO divine powers of His own during His earthly ministry?
Meaning, do you believe Jesus only did miracles by the Father and Spirit only and He was totally incapable of doing a miracle Himself?

Do you believe Jesus still has ZERO divine powers of His own today?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think you're missing my point which was agreeing that Jesus could have gotten off the cross and walked away from it, those other times were evidence that Jesus was capable of escaping any attempt on His life that He wanted to. On the cross He just chose not to, to obey the Father.

He had the ability to, but doing so would have been against His Father's will, so He chose to give up His life for sinners.
His life couldn't be taken
He had to give it up.

Please do not take this the wrong way, my friend; But I believe you missed the point I was making. Your point (Which was not exactly relevant to the point I made): Referred to the possibility of whether Jesus would escape or not.

My primary point did not touch exactly upon your point on whether or not He would potentially do such a thing on the cross. That’s not the ultimate point I was making. Your point is about probability or chance if Jesus would have potentially escaped the cross or not.

But my major point was not about the probability if He would potentially leave or not exactly. My main point was more about what THING or THINGS were ULTIMATELY holding Jesus on the cross. I believe it was Jesus’ love (obedience) to the Father, and His love for you and me (In saving us). My point is that JESUS had divine power of His own to escape the cross (But He was bound by love). He was bound by His love for the Father, and for us. It was not solely the nails that was keeping Jesus on the cross. That’s the point I was making. I did not venture down the road of the point you were making on whether Jesus could have potentially escaped the cross or not. My major point was not about probabilities of His leaving or not. My main point was WHAT was ULTIMATELY keeping Jesus on the cross? It was His love, and not ultimately the nails (Although the nails did hold Him there physically on the cross).

Luke 23:39 says:
”And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.”

Jesus surely had the POWER to save Himself. BUT… it was His love (obedience) to the Father, and His love for you and me (in desiring to see us saved) which kept Him on the cross ultimately.

My main point was LOVE.
God’s love.
This is the THING that kept Him on the cross and not the nails ultimately.
Don’t miss my point.
It’s big. It’s God’s love; Not possibilties.

Your first reply to me sounded like you disagreed with my point, and you brought up an unrelated point that I was not making.
I say this all in love of course.

May God bless you (even if you still don’t see where I am coming from).

Side Note:

As to answer your point on whether Jesus could have potentially decided to stop enduring the cross: Well, I do not think there was ever really a chance Jesus could have failed in His mission or in failing to do what His Father desired. Jesus is GOD. GOD does not fail. GOD does not make mistakes (even if His Omniscience was suppressed during His earthly ministry). It’s just that simple.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Everything Lord Jesus said and did as a humble servant of God on earth was all from the Father.

Jesus was made Lord by the Father (Acts 2:36)

The Father gave Jesus to have life in himself:

John 5:26-27 (WEB) 26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself. 27 He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a Son of Man.

All things that Lord Jesus said and did was from the Father.

John 5:36 (WEB) 36 But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John, for the works which the Father gave me to accomplish, the very works that I do, testify about me, that the Father has sent me.

John 8:26 (WEB) 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you. However he who sent me is true; and the things which I heard from him, these I say to the world.”

John 12:49 (WEB) 49 For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak

John 8:28-29 (WEB) 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 8:42 (WEB) 42 Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven’t come of myself, but he sent me.

John 10:37 (WEB) 37 If I don’t do the works of my Father, don’t believe me. 38 But if I do them, though you don’t believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

I am not in disagreement with what you said here.

Update: See my post here to see my explanation on your incorrect interpretation of John 5:26.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually, your point was to show that God the Father was not really God the Father

Well, you would be wrong, dear sir. I don’t believe that. I believe God the Father truly is God the Father. He is always God even from eternity’s past. God the Father is the head of in the hierarchy in the Godhead or Trinity. I believe the Father is distinct from the Son, and distinct from the Holy Spirit and yet they are all three one God in substance (mathematically speaking).

whom Lord Jesus submitted to in worship with his entire life as a real man,

First, what do you think “worship” means in the majority of the times it appears in the Bible?
Please look up the word “worship” and look at how it is placed in context.
Please take note on the many times how that word appears and see how it is primarily used.
Does the many occurrences of the word “worship” in the Bible fit with your understanding on that word?

Second, the only verse that is suggestive of Jesus worshiping God is in John 4:22. But this could also be equally read as Jesus referring to “We the people” and not Himself. Granted, if Jesus did worship the Father, it would not be anything like the same kind of worship or reverence we would have in regards to God (Please see my questions to you at the end of this post to learn more).

but was a play on words to mean godlike, as others were called gods, and that Jesus was not really a man because he was born of a virgin, in response to my post as follows:

Okay. Please stop saying things I don’t believe. I believe Jesus was born of a virgin. I believe Jesus is 100% human and was in the line of Adam. Jesus had physical flesh, blood, and bones. Jesus had to be physically like us in order to carry our sins in His body so as to die in our place and be our substitute (So that way He could offer mankind the gift of salvation).

Let me ask you a few questions:

Do you believe others worshiped Jesus?

If this is so, does that mean we can be worshiped like Jesus was?
So this breaks the mold that He had to be 100% exactly like us in every aspect in way.
Humans cannot be worshiped.
Only God can be worshiped.

Also, do you believe Jesus was referring to the Israelites as having god like powers in John 10:34 when he referred to them as gods according to Scripture? Or was Jesus referring to them only as rulers instead?

When Jesus called the Father, “My God” are you saying He meant these words in the same exact way we do? Meaning, when we say, ”My God” we understand that to mean that we revere God as being the sole Creator, sole Savior, and sole Ruler with us not being these things.

In other words, how exactly was the Father qualified as being “My God” when Jesus said these words?
Was it because the Father is the sole Creator and Jesus recognizes that He is not the Creator?
Was it because the Father is the sole Savior, and Jesus recognizes He is not the Savior?
Was it because the Father is the sole Ruler, and Jesus recognizes He is not ruler of anything by His own power or ability?

Please answer these questions.

 

[setst777]

First, what do you think “worship” means in the majority of the times it appears in the Bible?
Please look up the word “worship” and look at how it is placed in context.
Please take note on the many times how that word appears and see how it is primarily used.
Does the many occurrences of the word “worship” in the Bible fit with your understanding on that word?

Second, the only verse that is suggestive of Jesus worshiping God is in John 4:22. But this could also be equally read as Jesus referring to “We the people” and not Himself. Granted, if Jesus did worship the Father, it would not be anything like the same kind of worship or reverence we would have in regards to God (Please see my questions to you at the end of this post to learn more).

All true worshipers must worship God in "spirit and in truth," and that includes Lord Jesus as a man - the humble servant His God and Father.

John 4:22 (WEB) You worship that which you don’t know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.

John 4:23-24 (WEB) 23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to be his worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Therefore, true worship takes place on the inside, in the heart or spirit of the worshiper, and is to reverence and love God, obeying him in all things. Worship pleasing to God comes from a humble and pure heart.

Psalms 24:3-4 (WEB) 3 Who may ascend to Yahweh’s hill? Who may stand in his holy place? 4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart; who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood, and has not sworn deceitfully.

​

Okay. Please stop saying things I don’t believe. I believe Jesus was born of a virgin. I believe Jesus is 100% human and was in the line of Adam. Jesus had physical flesh, blood, and bones. Jesus had to be physically like us in order to carry our sins in His body so as to die in our place and be our substitute (So that way He could offer mankind the gift of salvation).

setst777 said:
Lord Jesus did not pretend that the Father was His God;

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe the word is more akin to being a ruler and not in the way we would say, “God” when we think of the one true God.

setst777 said:
Sure, you say God does not really mean "God," and Lord Jesus total submissive and obedient life to God his Father is not really worship (Romans 12:1-2), but you have to reinterpret words and texts in Scripture to mean something else.

The Church teaches and recognizes what the Scriptures relay to us, that Lord Jesus is fully God and fully man. Not 30% or 40% man, he was man in every way, and was tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin.

Bible Highlighter said:
The Bible has homonyms within it. These are words that look and sound the same but they have different meanings based on the context.

An example of a homonym:

“The bark of the dog echoed up the tree at the squirrel
who was hanging on the bark of the tree at the top near the branches.”

The word "bark" is the same word in spelling and pronunciation, but they each have two different meanings. These homonyms exist both in our English bibles and in the original languages. So the word "God" (and its variations) can have multiple meanings in the Bible. The context determines it's use. For example: “sons of God” can refer to angels, and it can refer to believers. It depends on the context.

As I pointed out before, John 10:34 is a perfect example of the word “gods” meaning “rulers” and not “God” in the normal way we would understand that word. . . .

Let me ask you a few questions:

Do you believe others worshiped Jesus?

If this is so, does that mean we can be worshiped like Jesus was?

Those who worshipped Jesus, while he was on earth, did not express any belief that Jesus himself was Creator and God, and Lord Jesus had not yet revealed that to them who worshipped him. By their own words, they believed Jesus was either the prophet, or Messiah, so someone who was sent from God.

Even the demons did not address Lord Jesus as "God;" but rather as the "Holy One" of God.

So this breaks the mold that He had to be 100% exactly like us in every aspect in way.
Humans cannot be worshiped.
Only God can be worshiped.

Christians will be worshipped (Revelation 3:9) and honored (Matthew 10:40-42) as representatives of Lord Jesus – but not that anyone, is “The one God, the Father.” The Son also prayed to and depended on for the one God the Father all things while a man on earth, and perfectly represented God the Father, the only God, while on earth.

John 17:3 (WEB) 3 This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (WEB) 5 For though there are things that are called “gods”, whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords”; 6 yet {{{to us}}} there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.

King David and others were worshipped. [See: 1 Samuel 24:8; 1 Samuel 25:23; 1 Samuel 25:41; 2 Samuel 1:2; 2 Samuel 9:6; 2 Samuel 14:22; 2 Samuel 14:33 2 Samuel 16:4; 2 Samuel 18:28; 2 Samuel 24:20; 1 kings 1:16, 1 Kings 1:23; 2 Kings 2:15; 1 Chronicles 21:21; Isaiah 60:14; Ruth 2:10.]

Also, do you believe Jesus was referring to the Israelites as having god like powers in John 10:34 when he referred to them as gods according to Scripture? Or was Jesus referring to them only as rulers instead?

You are refuting yourself by bringing up John 10:34, and I am not sure why you keep bringing that up. Only the Father is the one God. The Word of God (the Logos) was made to be a man-servant of the only true God the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (WEB) 5 For though there are things that are called “gods”, whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords”; 6 yet {{{to us}}} there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.

John 17:3 (WEB) 3 This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:5 (WEB) 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

When Jesus called the Father, “My God” are you saying He meant these words in the same exact way we do? Meaning, when we say, ”My God” we understand that to mean that we revere God as being the sole Creator, sole Savior, and sole Ruler with us not being these things.

As a man, the Father was his one true God, who is the Father.

John 17:3 (WEB) 3 This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

John 17:11 (WEB) Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

In "Revelation 3:12," the actual Greek shows that Lord Jesus is calling the Father "the God of me."

Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God [tou: of the Theou: God mou: of me],
and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God [tou: of the Theou: God mou: of me] and the name of the city of my God [tou: of the Theou: God mou: of me], the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God [tou: of the Theou: God mou: of me], and my own new name.

In other words, how exactly was the Father qualified as being “My God” when Jesus said these words?

Lord Jesus answers your question:

John 17:3 (WEB) 3 This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

Was it because the Father is the sole Creator and Jesus recognizes that He is not the Creator?

As a man on earth, Lord Jesus was that perfect humble man-servant of God His Father. That is the teaching of Scripture.

Philippians 2:6-7 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be held onto [grasped: Gk: harpagmon]; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.

Was it because the Father is the sole Savior, and Jesus recognizes He is not the Savior?

The Father is Redeemer and Savior that he accomplishes through the Son. And that is why Lord Jesus is Savior of the world.

Was it because the Father is the sole Ruler, and Jesus recognizes He is not ruler of anything by His own power or ability?

Lord Jesus was appointed, given, inherited the right to rule as man - the Son of David.

• As a man, Lord Jesus inherits a better name (Hebrews 1:4; Philippians 2:9-11),
• As a man, is made to be Christ and Lord over all (Acts 2:36),
• As a man, he is given eternal life as the Son of David (Luke 1:30-35; John 5:26),
• As a man, he is given, by the Father, rulership over all things on David’s throne forever as a man (Luke 1:30-35; Psalms 89:34-37; Acts 2:29-36; Isaiah 9:6-7; Psalms 132:11).
• As a man-servant of God his Father, Lord Jesus depended on the Father for everything – the words he spoke (John 14:10), the miracles and works he did (John 5:36), the things he knew (John 8:28), are all from the Father to his man-servant and son Lord Jesus - as a man.

I every way, Lord Jesus is that obedient servant of God the Father - the only true God.

John 17:3 (WEB) 3 This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (WEB) 5 For though there are things that are called “gods”, whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords”; 6 yet {{{to us}}} there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.

In Summary: The incarnate Word, Lord Jesus, lived as a humble servant of God his Father. Lord Jesus by his obedient and submissive life to God his Father, he expressed the purist form of worship that any man could ever give God the Father.

To say that the pure devotion, obedient, and total submission Lord Jesus gave to his Father is not worship when he does it, but is only worship when we do it, is hypocritical.

 

[Jamdoc]

Please do not take this the wrong way, my friend; But I believe you missed the point I was making. Your point (Which was not exactly relevant to the point I made): Referred to the possibility of whether Jesus would escape or not.

My primary point did not touch exactly upon your point on whether or not He would potentially do such a thing on the cross. That’s not the ultimate point I was making. Your point is about probability or chance if Jesus would have potentially escaped the cross or not.

But my major point was not about the probability if He would potentially leave or not exactly. My main point was more about what THING or THINGS were ULTIMATELY holding Jesus on the cross. I believe it was Jesus’ love (obedience) to the Father, and His love for you and me (In saving us). My point is that JESUS had divine power of His own to escape the cross (But He was bound by love). He was bound by His love for the Father, and for us. It was not solely the nails that was keeping Jesus on the cross. That’s the point I was making. I did not venture down the road of the point you were making on whether Jesus could have potentially escaped the cross or not. My major point was not about probabilities of His leaving or not. My main point was WHAT was ULTIMATELY keeping Jesus on the cross? It was His love, and not ultimately the nails (Although the nails did hold Him there physically on the cross).

Luke 23:39 says:
”And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.”

Jesus surely had the POWER to save Himself. BUT… it was His love (obedience) to the Father, and His love for you and me (in desiring to see us saved) which kept Him on the cross ultimately.

My main point was LOVE.
God’s love.
This is the THING that kept Him on the cross and not the nails ultimately.
Don’t miss my point.
It’s big. It’s God’s love; Not possibilties.

Your first reply to me sounded like you disagreed with my point, and you brought up an unrelated point that I was not making.
I say this all in love of course.

May God bless you (even if you still don’t see where I am coming from).

Side Note:

As to answer your point on whether Jesus could have potentially decided to stop enduring the cross: Well, I do not think there was ever really a chance Jesus could have failed in His mission or in failing to do what His Father desired. Jesus is GOD. GOD does not fail. GOD does not make mistakes (even if His Omniscience was suppressed during His earthly ministry). It’s just that simple.

I'm not even disagreeing with you, I was just in agreement with you actually that Jesus did maintain power as God on Earth, but possibly not omniscience.

 

[setst777]

I am not in disagreement with what you said here.

You wrote that in response to my message as follows:

<<<
setst777 said:
Everything Lord Jesus said and did as a humble servant of God on earth was all from the Father.

Jesus was made Lord by the Father (Acts 2:36)

The Father gave Jesus to have life in himself:

John 5:26-27 (WEB) 26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself. 27 He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a Son of Man.

All things that Lord Jesus said and did was from the Father.

John 5:36 (WEB) 36 But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John, for the works which the Father gave me to accomplish, the very works that I do, testify about me, that the Father has sent me.

John 8:26 (WEB) 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you. However he who sent me is true; and the things which I heard from him, these I say to the world.”

John 12:49 (WEB) 49 For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak

John 8:28-29 (WEB) 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 8:42 (WEB) 42 Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven’t come of myself, but he sent me.

John 10:37 (WEB) 37 If I don’t do the works of my Father, don’t believe me. 38 But if I do them, though you don’t believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
>>>

That is quite an admission from you, especially after saying that Lord Jesus had his own authority and powers that he demonstrated.

You did write as follows:

Do you believe Jesus had ZERO divine powers of His own during His earthly ministry?
Meaning, do you believe Jesus only did miracles by the Father and Spirit only and He was totally incapable of doing a miracle Himself?