God's Order of Salvation

[KevinT]

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Go here Did Men Really Walk On The Moon?
and here
why do people think the moon landing was fake?
and here
Another look at the moon landing.

Sigh... that is what I was afraid of.

KT

 

[d taylor]

I think we're talking about two different things here. The type of faith your talking about is the type a child has for his father while he's learning to walk. The child has faith that his father won't let go of his hand and cause him to fall, that's a temporal carnal faith which animals have as well. It's the faith everyone has in what they can see.

I'm talking about a faith in the things which are not seen, to put your faith in the promises of God is to believe in things that are not seen as they are in the spiritual realm. God is a Spirit, ,and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit. That's very different to the faith you described.

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Jesus was seen alive and in a physical body walking around doing miracles, etc.. The Bible states that.

 

[Dan1988]

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Nope there is only one type of faith. A person boards an airplane they have faith that they will arrive at their destination safely. Because that is an exercise of faith. As many people have not arrived safely and have actually died, but they boarded the air plane, believing just like others that they would arrive safety.

A person either believes in a person, a promised, a stated information, etc.. or they do not. When person is convinced information is true they will exercise faith and believe it.

A child is taught in school at an early age the earth is a globe, they exercise faith and either believe what their teacher says or they do not. But there is no way for the child to go out and see for themselves if this is true or not.

None of those examples address saving faith. All of the examples you gave are still based on logic, but saving faith is not logical and it's considered foolish by all of the worlds greatest scientific minds.

The preaching of the gospel is foolishness to those ho are perishing, therefor only Gods elect will believe the gospel.

All of hose other faiths you mentioned have nothing to do with salvation, so they can't be compared to saving faith in God.

 

[Dan1988]

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Jesus was seen alive and in a physical body walking around doing miracles, etc.. The Bible states that.

That's true many thousands saw Jesus perform miracles, but it was impossible for them to have faith in Christ because God didn't give them the gift of faith.
This just proves that no amount of evidence can convince anyone to have faith, unless they first receive the gift of faith. The scriptures says "salvation is by grace through faith", both of these are gifts which God gives His elect. Apart from God giving them to the individual, there's no other way to attain them.

 

[d taylor]

That's true many thousands saw Jesus perform miracles, but it was impossible for them to have faith in Christ because God didn't give them the gift of faith.
This just proves that no amount of evidence can convince anyone to have faith, unless they first receive the gift of faith. The scriptures says "salvation is by grace through faith", both of these are gifts which God gives His elect. Apart from God giving them to the individual, there's no other way to attain them.

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The ones who did not believe. Did not believe because Jesus did not match up to the promised Messiah they had created in their minds. Not because God did not give them faith. They used their faith to fashion a Messiah that was going to over throw Rome , etc... and not come as a humble child and suffering servant.

 

[d taylor]

None of those examples address saving faith. All of the examples you gave are still based on logic, but saving faith is not logical and it's considered foolish by all of the worlds greatest scientific minds.

The preaching of the gospel is foolishness to those ho are perishing, therefor only Gods elect will believe the gospel.

All of hose other faiths you mentioned have nothing to do with salvation, so they can't be compared to saving faith in God.

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Saving faith is not a special faith God gives. Saving faith only saves because of the object the faith is placed in, which is Jesus. People who do not believe, does not mean they do not have the ability to exercise faith and believe. Other wise satan would not have to blind people to the message of life.

If a person did not have the ability to use their faith to believe in Jesus, satan would not have to blind them.

As the parable of the soils state.
Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

 

[d taylor]

None of those examples address saving faith. All of the examples you gave are still based on logic, but saving faith is not logical and it's considered foolish by all of the worlds greatest scientific minds.

The preaching of the gospel is foolishness to those ho are perishing, therefor only Gods elect will believe the gospel.

All of hose other faiths you mentioned have nothing to do with salvation, so they can't be compared to saving faith in God.

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So you believe there is a special faith called saving faith. Define this special faith Biblically and if this faith actually exist. Show an example of a person receiving this special faith in The Bible from God and them using it to believe in Jesus.

 

[Dan1988]

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The ones who did not believe. Did not believe because Jesus did not match up to the promised Messiah they had created in their minds. Not because God did not give them faith. They used their faith to fashion a Messiah that was going to over throw Rome , etc... and not come as a humble child and suffering servant.

With all due respect, I must disagree with your view again. It's all well and good to say the unbelievers didn't believe in Jesus because they were expecting a war lord to give them an earthly kingdom, and not a heavenly kingdom.

Be that as it may, the underlying cause of their disbelief was their carnal sin nature. No carnal natural man can believe spiritual things, because they are spiritually discerned and they are foolishness to the natural man.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

We can't apply this biblical description of "faith" to that of those you described, who fashioned a messiah to overthrow Rome. The biblical faith is described as an "assurance", it's not wishful thinking as that of the natural man (unbeliever). True faith doesn't have any doubt that God will fulfill His promise.

 

[Dan1988]

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Saving faith is not a special faith God gives. Saving faith only saves because of the object the faith is placed in, which is Jesus. People who do not believe, does not mean they do not have the ability to exercise faith and believe. Other wise satan would not have to blind people to the message of life.

If a person did not have the ability to use their faith to believe in Jesus, satan would not have to blind them.

As the parable of the soils state.
Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

You didn't take into account a couple of very important factors, before you drew to your conclusions.

First of all God said that it's impossible for Satan to deceive/blind His elect., so that cancels out your view right there.

Mtt 24:24 New King James Version. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

As you can see by that verse, it's impossible to deceive Gods elect. God gave us the gift of faith and discernment and a sound mind.

As for the seed that fell by the wayside, well they never had the gift of grace and faith. So they never stood a chance to begin with.

 

[Dan1988]

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So you believe there is a special faith called saving faith. Define this special faith Biblically and if this faith actually exist. Show an example of a person receiving this special faith in The Bible from God and them using it to believe in Jesus.

Saving faith is the one which remains with the believer to the end of the race, it's not the type you have today and lose tomorrow. So, only those who endure to the end shall be saved, all those who made a false profession of faith fall away and they don't finish the race to claim the prize.

A faith that is derived from a fallen carnal nature, is doomed to fail because it's fundamentally flawed.

The faith that God gives His elect can never fail, because the Holy Spirit Himself keeps us from losing faith and falling away.

Philippians 1:6 says, “being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

Eph 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I'm sure you would agree that the verse is saying that faith is a gift and it's not of ourselves.

 

[d taylor]

Saving faith is the one which remains with the believer to the end of the race, it's not the type you have today and lose tomorrow. So, only those who endure to the end shall be saved, all those who made a false profession of faith fall away and they don't finish the race to claim the prize.

A faith that is derived from a fallen carnal nature, is doomed to fail because it's fundamentally flawed.

The faith that God gives His elect can never fail, because the Holy Spirit Himself keeps us from losing faith and falling away.

Philippians 1:6 says, “being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

Eph 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I'm sure you would agree that the verse is saying that faith is a gift and it's not of ourselves.

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No i do not agree, the gift is salvation, Romans chapters 5 and 6 show that it is eternal life salvation that is the free gift.

 

[d taylor]

Saving faith is the one which remains with the believer to the end of the race, it's not the type you have today and lose tomorrow. So, only those who endure to the end shall be saved, all those who made a false profession of faith fall away and they don't finish the race to claim the prize.

A faith that is derived from a fallen carnal nature, is doomed to fail because it's fundamentally flawed.

The faith that God gives His elect can never fail, because the Holy Spirit Himself keeps us from losing faith and falling away.

Philippians 1:6 says, “being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

Eph 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I'm sure you would agree that the verse is saying that faith is a gift and it's not of ourselves.

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Now, it is coming to the surface. So you will say believers can lose their eternal life salvation.

So the standard calvinist position, if a person stops believing they were never a true believer to began with.

In other words the faith definition of faith, you believe in is defined as faith=obedience.

So if one, as you say truly believes they will remain obedient their whole life.

So to you belief/faith is not the conviction that God's promise is true. But that God gives you obedience or faith as you would say. So you will be obedient till the end of your life, so anyone who falls away. Like the 2nd and 3rd soils you say were never true believers.

Which is not Biblically supported.

 

[d taylor]

You didn't take into account a couple of very important factors, before you drew to your conclusions.

First of all God said that it's impossible for Satan to deceive/blind His elect., so that cancels out your view right there.

Mtt 24:24 New King James Version. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

As you can see by that verse, it's impossible to deceive Gods elect. God gave us the gift of faith and discernment and a sound mind.

As for the seed that fell by the wayside, well they never had the gift of grace and faith. So they never stood a chance to begin with.

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Matthew 24:24 is speaking about believing Jews. The Jews are God's chosen people or God's elect people.

 

[d taylor]

With all due respect, I must disagree with your view again. It's all well and good to say the unbelievers didn't believe in Jesus because they were expecting a war lord to give them an earthly kingdom, and not a heavenly kingdom.

Be that as it may, the underlying cause of their disbelief was their carnal sin nature. No carnal natural man can believe spiritual things, because they are spiritually discerned and they are foolishness to the natural man.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

We can't apply this biblical description of "faith" to that of those you described, who fashioned a messiah to overthrow Rome. The biblical faith is described as an "assurance", it's not wishful thinking as that of the natural man (unbeliever). True faith doesn't have any doubt that God will fulfill His promise.

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If you have God given faith, why do you not perfectly understand all of The Bible.

 

[All Becomes New]

Paul speaks of those foreknown by God as being predestined.

Not all Christians are predestined. Only those who have a special calling on their life.

 

[Richard T]

I wasn't able to agree with any of the points you made. It's true faith does come by hearing and hearing by the word of God, but only those who God gives the gift of faith will believe.
As you know two people can hear the same word of God, and one rejects it, because he has not been given the gift of faith, while the other receives it because God chose to give him the gift of faith.

Your Arminian theology, doesn't have any answers as to why some reject the gospel while other embrace it.

Those three "evangelists" you wrote about were all false prophets who sold the gospel like a consumer product. This resulted in a 99.9% fail rate, where the vast majority of those who were coaxed into making a profession of faith, were victims of hi pressure snake oil salesmen.

You can't sell salvation like a consumer product, God doesn't come to the party when you use those deceptive tactics.

In my Church, we never have alter calls, and if somebody wants to join our Church, they have to go through a long procedure before they are accepted into our Church. This procedure takes many months and the Church can still reject their application, if they don't pass every single test that we put them through. We have hi standards, while Arminian Churches accept anyone, even drug addicts and prostitutes.

You can pray and preach as much as you like, but if God hasn't chosen to save that person then they will never become believers.

I saw the fruits of both Osborn personally and Bonnke's impact in Africa as I was in the same nation when he held a crusade. Jesus accepted all who came. I sure am glad no one refused water to the Ethiopian. I admit too that some charismatic types are off the hook. Part of the reason I believe as i do too is that when you see God reacting to fasting on several lives almost immediately, then the correlation is undeniable. I respect your beliefs though. It is between you and God and pray he blesses your efforts.

 

[d taylor]

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There is no verse or group of verses stating that God is electing certain people to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. And not electing people to not receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

God chooses and elects people to service example John The Baptist as even before he was born John was full of The Holy Spirit.
For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

But John even had to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life and even after baptizing Jesus and seeing what he saw heaven open , etc... He still lacked faith at times
And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”
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And John, calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to Jesus, saying, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?”

Or that God choose Mary to bring forth The Messiah into the world.

 

[All Becomes New]

There is no verse or group of verses stating that God is electing certain people to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

False.

Ephesians 1:5
"He predestined us to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ for himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

 

[d taylor]

False.

Ephesians 1:5
"He predestined us to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ for himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

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The verse is stating that God predestined all who believe in Jesus, to be adopted as sons. It is not saying God has predestined certain people to become believers.

God brings people to Himself, but the person must believe. Does God know who will believe and who will not believe, yes being omniscient God knows. But that still does not mean God is selecting certain people to believe. God draws all people to Himself, it is up to the individual person to believe when God draws.

As God may draw a person at a specific time in a persons life, if they do not take advantage of God's drawing at that time. God may not draw that person again.

 

[All Becomes New]

The verse is stating that God predestined all who believe in Jesus, to be adopted as sons. It is not saying God has predestined certain people to become believers.

Nope. Seperate group of people. Not the Ephesians as it says in 1:13 "In Him you also." Paul is speaking of the Apostles in 1:3-12.