God's Ability To Save

[msortwell]

We have spent much time and energy discussing the ability (or inability) of man (regenerate and unregenerate) to believe unto salvation. I would like to ask a related question.

Is GOD ABLE to justify/save whosoever He chooses to justify/save?

 

[depthdeception]

Is GOD ABLE to justify/save whosoever He chooses to justify/save?

You've loaded the question. After all, as all the reformed protagonists around here will claim, that which God "chooses" is that which God brings about. THerefore, if you pose the question as you have above, the obvious answer--under the presumptions of reformed thinking--is that yes, God is not only able, but moreover constrained to justify/save whomever God chooses to justify/save. However, such a way of wording the question does not really move the discussion in a different direction than the other discussions to which you referred.

Instead of asking if God is able to do something, perhaps you should ask if God chooses to do that which God is able to do.

 

[msortwell]

You've loaded the question. After all, as all the reformed protagonists around here will claim, that which God "chooses" is that which God brings about. THerefore, if you pose the question as you have above, the obvious answer--under the presumptions of reformed thinking--is that yes, God is not only able, but moreover constrained to justify/save whomever God chooses to justify/save. However, such a way of wording the question does not really move the discussion in a different direction than the other discussions to which you referred.

Instead of asking if God is able to do something, perhaps you should ask if God chooses to do that which God is able to do.

Your point is well taken. It is not my desire to slant the question. I am reading a book that repeatedly expresses dismay at the Reformed view that God chooses to sovereignly save some but chooses not to save others - others that he could save in the same sovereign manner.

What I am trying to determine is if persons holding such concerns believe that God is unable to save some people.

Blessings,

Mike

 

[Van]

God does as He pleases and He is all powerful, therefore the answer is obvious, God could if He chose, influence a person such that they trust in Christ, and then spiritually baptize the person into Christ, such that they are saved now and forever.

So the issue is what is God's purpose and plan. Not what God is capable of doing. Just because God could have given me the correct understanding of Soterielogy does not suggest in the slightest that He actually did.

Romans 4:5 says God credits the faith of those who believe God justifies the ungodly as righteousness. Therefore, we are not given our faith, because if our faith was from God it would not need to be credited as righteousness. James 2:5 says God chooses those rich in faith unto salvation, teaching God keeps His promises to those who love Him. John 1:12-13 says that after we receive the gospel, then God gives us the right to become sons of God. Paul says in Acts 16:30-31, that the thing we need to do to be saved in believe in our Lord Jesus Christ. John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[nobdysfool]

Your point is well taken. It is not my desire to slant the question. I am reading a book that repeatedly expresses dismay at the Reformed view that God chooses to sovereignly save some but chooses not to save others - others that he could save in the same sovereign manner.

What I am trying to determine is if persons holding such concerns believe that God is unable to save some people.

Blessings,

Mike

No Reformed person would say that God is unable to save anyone. To believe that God is unable in any way to save anyone carries within it the implicit idea that salvation is in some measure the work, or at least within the power, of the one being saved. Scripture does not support such a view, the non-Reformed and Arminians notwithstanding.

What book are you reading? If they express dismay that the Reformed view states that God chooses to save some and chooses not to save others, they do so at odds with scripture. Usually, underlying such thinking is an implicit belief that men deserve to be saved, or that for God to choose to save some and not save others is "unfair". They believe that Justice is served when men are saved, when it is Mercy that saves men, Mercy conferred by Grace. Justice demands nothing more than the damnation of all sinners. Since all men ARE sinners, Justice would be served in their damnation, not their salvation.

It is purely God's Mercy and Grace that any are saved, and God is under no obligation to any man to save him.

 

[ghs1994]

God has used in the past folks against their will. For who can resist His will? By that, I mean if God wants to use you, He'll create circumstances in a person's life that they have no choice but to obey or their life will just plain out suck. This is one example of His Sovereignty. This doesn't mean God is a bully, but He can do whatever He wants with those that are His.

At the same time, we still have a will. Otherwise, we wouldn't do the stupid stuff we do to disobey God. He still gives us a choice. But I do believe if He has an agenda, it will get done irregardless of whether we want it to happen or not. We still have the will to disobey even if He brings circumstances into our lives that make our lives miserable.

Take anyone in scripture and look at how they were called by God. God's will shall be done. If it isn't accomplished thru our obedience, He'll use someone else and we'll be held accountable. We still have a will to obey or disobey.

With that said, God can save anyone who comes to Him by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God can create circumstances in a person's life that convict them, but either way, God won't save someone who continues to reject Him. Can He? Sure, I believe God can make a person's life so miserable that they have no choice but to obey and believe. How could they not? Why would anyone desire to live a life of hell? But ya know what, they do it all the time. But I do believe there are those who have hardened their hearts until the end.

 

[msortwell]

God has used in the past folks against their will. For who can resist His will? By that, I mean if God wants to use you, He'll create circumstances in a person's life that they have no choice but to obey or their life will just plain out suck. This is one example of His Sovereignty. This doesn't mean God is a bully, but He can do whatever He wants with those that are His.

At the same time, we still have a will. Otherwise, we wouldn't do the stupid stuff we do to disobey God. He still gives us a choice. But I do believe if He has an agenda, it will get done irregardless of whether we want it to happen or not. We still have the will to disobey even if He brings circumstances into our lives that make our lives miserable.

Take anyone in scripture and look at how they were called by God. God's will shall be done. If it isn't accomplished thru our obedience, He'll use someone else and we'll be held accountable. We still have a will to obey or disobey.

With that said, God can save anyone who comes to Him by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God can create circumstances in a person's life that convict them, but either way, God won't save someone who continues to reject Him. Can He? Sure, I believe God can make a person's life so miserable that they have no choice but to obey and believe. How could they not? Why would anyone desire to live a life of hell? But ya know what, they do it all the time. But I do believe there are those who have hardened their hearts until the end.

So, it seems unanimous. All (that is all without exception, not simply all without distinction) agree that God could save whosoever He chooses to save. It also seems unanimous (at least thus far) that God chooses not to save some, based upon the criteria that He established.

So . . . For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Still . . . God CHOOSES to NOT do EVERYTHING he COULD do to save some of the inhabitants of the world, the (direct or indirect) result of that choice is that some of those inhabitants end up in hell for eternity.

Are there any nay sayers?

Mike

 

[depthdeception]

So, it seems unanimous. All (that is all without exception, not simply all without distinction) agree that God could save whosoever He chooses to save. It also seems unanimous (at least thus far) that God chooses not to save some, based upon the criteria that He established.

So . . . For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Still . . . God CHOOSES to NOT do EVERYTHING he COULD do to save some of the inhabitants of the world, the (direct or indirect) result of that choice is that some of those inhabitants end up in hell for eternity.

Are there any nay sayers?

Mike

Sure. I do not agree that God "chooses" to save some and not save others. As I said in response to the original OP, to phrase the question in terms of "choice" is to determine the outcome before the answer is even given.

 

[nobdysfool]

Sure. I do not agree that God "chooses" to save some and not save others. As I said in response to the original OP, to phrase the question in terms of "choice" is to determine the outcome before the answer is even given.

If God does not "choose" either to save or not save, then He is totally passive with regard to salvation. If that is so, then it is a false statement to say that "Salvation is of the Lord", since His choice is not involved. You make salvation wholly man's doing, which is unscriptural.

You may say that He has provided the means for salvation, but it is up to man to choose it. But that flies in the face of Grace, without which no man will see God. Since God gives Grace to whom He wills, and whom He wills, He hardens, it cannot be said that God does not choose to save some and not save others, since Grace is involved in salvation, and Grace always and only comes from God. Hardening them involves withholding saving Grace from them.

So, yes, God DOES choose to save some, and not others. You may not like it, but them's the facts.

 

[msortwell]

Sure. I do not agree that God "chooses" to save some and not save others. As I said in response to the original OP, to phrase the question in terms of "choice" is to determine the outcome before the answer is even given.

Would the question be better asked as, "Are there some people that God is unable to save"? Or are you saying that man's salvation is not contingent upon or related to any choice(s) made by God?

 

[ghs1994]

God is Sovereign. Man is responsible.

Man is responsible from Adam to now. All the inbetween is simply examples of man's disobedience and rebellion against God. Man has the will to reject or accept God. This doesn't make God weak, but it makes Him God. Folks think that if man has a choice in it, it takes away from the Sovereignty of God. This is just simply not true.

There are many examples of God using folks against their will, using folks by their will, etc

 

[msortwell]

God is Sovereign. Man is responsible.

Man is responsible from Adam to now. All the inbetween is simply examples of man's disobedience and rebellion against God. Man has the will to reject or accept God. This doesn't make God weak, but it makes Him God. Folks think that if man has a choice in it, it takes away from the Sovereignty of God. This is just simply not true.

There are many examples of God using folks against their will, using folks by their will, etc

So, your answer to the question would be . . . ?

 

[ghs1994]

So, your answer to the question would be . . . ?

God does what He wants.

 

[andy153]

We have spent much time and energy discussing the ability (or inability) of man (regenerate and unregenerate) to believe unto salvation. I would like to ask a related question.

Is GOD ABLE to justify/save whosoever He chooses to justify/save?

Salvation comes through


Jesus
Faith
Blood
Grace
Mercy

If these are not present then even God cannot save/justify a single soul.

with love and respect, andy153

 

[msortwell]

Salvation comes through


Jesus
Faith
Blood
Grace
Mercy

If these are not present then even God cannot save/justify a single soul.

with love and respect, andy153

Is your answer then that God cannot save whosoever he chooses to save . . . In other words at least one of the five necessary elements that you listed is beyond God's control?

Just to clarify . . . Which one (or more) of them do you consider to be outside of God's control?

Mike

 

[depthdeception]

If God does not "choose" either to save or not save, then He is totally passive with regard to salvation.

This is only necessary if salvation is exclusively contingent upon God's "choice" of who is and isn't saved. I see no compelling philosophical reason, however, why the lack of God's "choice" in salvation necessarily equates to divine passivity.

If that is so, then it is a false statement to say that "Salvation is of the Lord", since His choice is not involved. You make salvation wholly man's doing, which is unscriptural.

You are making assumptions about my belief without actually understanding what I believe. Once again, you are making a category error by making the non-choice of God equivalent and indistinguishable from "salvation being wholly man's doing."

You may say that He has provided the means for salvation, but it is up to man to choose it.

No, I probably would not say that. Perhaps you could engage with what I am saying rather than what you would like me to say.

Since God gives Grace to whom He wills, and whom He wills, He hardens, it cannot be said that God does not choose to save some and not save others, since Grace is involved in salvation, and Grace always and only comes from God. Hardening them involves withholding saving Grace from them.

Purely unsubstantiated philosophical conjecture. Such a position indicates that you have an exhuastive understanding of the mechanisms of grace, which is humanly impossible.

So, yes, God DOES choose to save some, and not others. You may not like it, but them's the facts.

What I like is irrelevant, as much as your saying "them's the facts" is constitutive of actual philosophical evidence for the claims you are attempting to make.

 

[depthdeception]

Would the question be better asked as, "Are there some people that God is unable to save"? Or are you saying that man's salvation is not contingent upon or related to any choice(s) made by God?

I think the primal question must be "Does God's 'ability' have anything to do with salvation?"

I think the line of questioning assumes a lot about God that may or may not be pertinent to the issues involved. I really don't think God's "ability" has anything to do with salvation. If it did, the impetus of salvation would be that of power, not of grace.

 

[msortwell]

I think the primal question must be "Does God's 'ability' have anything to do with salvation?"

I think the line of questioning assumes a lot about God that may or may not be pertinent to the issues involved. I really don't think God's "ability" has anything to do with salvation. If it did, the impetus of salvation would be that of power, not of grace.

Is grace something that God bestows upon all equally?

 

[depthdeception]

Is grace something that God bestows upon all equally?

Are you really trying to ask, "Is grace something that God chooses to bestow upon all equally?

 

[msortwell]

Are you really trying to ask, "Is grace something that God chooses to bestow upon all equally?

No . . . in your case, I am trying to ascertain your view of God exercising his grace without attributing to God a choice regarding the matter.

So?