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Featured Godfire - a Word Study

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Lazarus Short, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Isaiah 59:21
    “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.
     
  2. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    Yes, it is a present action not future. It is not eternal.

    If they continue in the way Isaiah explains through chp. 59 it will become eternal.

    As we read on to vs. 18 we read,

    according to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, fury to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies, to the Islands he will repay recompense.

    The wages of sin is death, we know what happened to these people.

    It was an eternal turning away in the end.
     
  3. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Those who hate Christ are those most in need of the hope of Christ/ Yeshua/ His Salvation. Hello?

    God makes His enemies His footstools, meaning we who were once far are brought near, and every knee will bow every tongue confess.

    Why is the mere possibility that God might actually deliver on the angel's glad tidings of good news for all so distasteful to you?
     
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  4. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    I love these little arbitrary grammatical devices that just pop into existence, and by which the fate of nations are sealed. Beware the leaven of Pharisees, the banality of evil.
     
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  5. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    A victory lap for the glory of God indeed! Great stuff.

    Just a couple of minor tweaks you might like to consider:

    Point 2 - God not only saw His creation as good, but as VERY good. Creation was exceedingly good, a superlative job, even by divine standards!

    Point 8 - the exception being the LOF. To be fair, the nations all get the Godfire treatment in Rev 20:9 when they come to besiege Jerusalem. Some compare this with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is ok because the nations do reappear to worship God in Rev 21:24, having been made anew/ born again.

    Point 12 - Hell would be bad news for all, both directly for the many, and indirectly for the elect, as they/we would all have some loved one who didn't 'make the cut'.

    Generally, don't know whether the contradiction of ECT with God's nature of love and the divine attributes of truth, goodness, grace, mercy, justice and wisdom is worth consolidating into its own point. Not like you haven't already made a pretty solid case there lol.

    I take it you're planning to publish said book?
     
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    You are assuming the outcome based on flawed doctrine. What does the last verse in the chapter say?

    Isaiah 59:21
    “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.
     
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    So you agree that your proof-text was out-of-context. Thank you.

    Here's a thought.
    Sometimes a text says what it says despite the context.
    But those who disagree will use the "argument" of context to deny what it plainly says.
    Or, will broaden the "context" until they find something to use against it.

    It happens all the time, all day long on the forum.
    Everyone lines up on either side of their preconceived notions and argues their side.
    No one is buying, everyone is selling. (exaggeration to make a point)
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I've heard arguments on both sides of this one.
    And though you are correct in saying the passage refers to the man, the king of Tyre, look what it says about him in verses 12-19. Were these things true of the king of Tyre? (bold emphasis mine)

    Ezekiel 28:12-19 New International Version (NIV)
    12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
    “‘You were the seal of perfection,
    full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 You were in Eden,
    the garden of God;
    every precious stone adorned you:
    carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
    topaz, onyx and jasper,
    lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
    Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
    on the day you were created they were prepared.
    14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
    for so I ordained you.
    You were on the holy mount of God;
    you walked among the fiery stones.
    15 You were blameless in your ways
    from the day you were created
    till wickedness was found in you
    .
    16 Through your widespread trade
    you were filled with violence,
    and you sinned.
    So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
    and I expelled you, guardian cherub
    ,
    from among the fiery stones.
    17 Your heart became proud
    on account of your beauty,
    and you corrupted your wisdom
    because of your splendor.
    So I threw you to the earth;
    I made a spectacle of you before kings.
    18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
    you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
    So I made a fire come out from you,
    and it consumed you,
    and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
    in the sight of all who were watching.
    19 All the nations who knew you
    are appalled at you;
    you have come to a horrible end
    and will be no more.’”
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    But what is the reality?
    Is there an afterlife for everyone? At what point does it end?

    Luke 20:37-38
    But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
     
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    This is an interesting point.
    It seems that hell is something the Damnationists tacked onto the gospel to give it "teeth". The threat of hell to make the conversion. Similar to the sales tactic to create urgency. "Offer expires on..."
     
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear young Charles: there is a limit with how far your youth and inexperiece will factor into your lack of the knowledge of our wonderful Father.

    Aidios is not aionios !
     
  12. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Point 2 - I looked at the chapter in interlinear form, and "very" was not in the Hebrew, so I'll leave it as is.

    Point 8 - Advice taken.

    Point 12 - Since our lives here will not be spoken of or brought to mind in the new earth, what you suggest is moot.

    Yes, I would like to get the book published some day. I know I've put enough hours into it.
     
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  13. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    As far as Eden, I found that Eden was mentioned in the previous chapter as just another country among other countries that Tyre traded with. As far as the other things you bolded, I just don't know - but given that he was specifically ID'd as "just a man," I'll stick to my assessment.
     
  14. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Man's point of view: Dead.

    God's point of view: Dead for a little while, but alive forever more!
     
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  15. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Yes: to keep the pews and offering plates full.
     
  16. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    Sorry, that is a perverted delivery of the Gospel.

    Charlie will have no part of it. It's a false hope!

    One can only enter the gate while their is life.
     
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  17. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    I wish I was young and I wish I was knowledgeable.

    But by the grace of God I am what I am.

    Eternal really does mean eternal!
     
  18. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    I knew the contents of Isa. 59, I have read it many times.

    I knew the turning away in vs.1 resulted in an eternal turning away.

    I assume others did also!

    The present action in vs.1 is a past action as we speak. It is now an eternal action.

    That's why I referred to it an eternal turning away.
     
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Charles: You have clearly enunciated the scope of your knowledge of our Heavenly Father. You are indeed what you are, and like all of us blind and deaf sinners in dire need of ephphatha.

    Aidios = eternal: aionios = everlasting.
     
  20. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    My knowledge of the Father's Word is at best below average.

    There was a period of some 20 years where I didn't grow in His knowledge.

    Yes, I am a sinner saved by grace, I am totally dependent on Him.
     
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