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Saint Steven

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Isaiah 59:21
“As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.
 
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Charlie24

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You are missing the point.
This is about your out-of-context claim that the "separation" in Is.59:2 was eternal.

Saint Steven said:
That chapter is about ultimate redemption. Restoration. (see chapter heading below)
The separation is NOT eternal.

Isaiah 59:1-2 (NIV)
Sin, Confession and Redemption
1 Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.
Yes, it is a present action not future. It is not eternal.

If they continue in the way Isaiah explains through chp. 59 it will become eternal.

As we read on to vs. 18 we read,

according to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, fury to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies, to the Islands he will repay recompense.

The wages of sin is death, we know what happened to these people.

It was an eternal turning away in the end.
 
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One of us will have a BIG surprise when we meet the Almighty.

If I'm wrong, no big deal. If you are wrong, it's a really big deal!

You will have given hope of salvation in the end to those who hate Christ.

Those who hate Christ are those most in need of the hope of Christ/ Yeshua/ His Salvation. Hello?

God makes His enemies His footstools, meaning we who were once far are brought near, and every knee will bow every tongue confess.

Why is the mere possibility that God might actually deliver on the angel's glad tidings of good news for all so distasteful to you?
 
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Yes, it is a present action not future. It is not eternal.

I love these little arbitrary grammatical devices that just pop into existence, and by which the fate of nations are sealed. Beware the leaven of Pharisees, the banality of evil.
 
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You're correct: enough is enough. Here's my victory lap, and are you honest enough to look of the Scripture references? You did say that you keep your thoughts/study directly on the Word of God.

A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS ABOUT HEL, HELL AND THE KJV



1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apparently uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. To back that up, the Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

3. The Creation as described in Genesis is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life aurely also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.

8. Nearly all the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4. The only exception is the banishment of the unrighteous to the Lake of Fire – but that is for their ultimate salvation, otherwise Death cannot be defeated and God cannot become All in all, as we read in I Corinthians 15.

9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the marginal or center-column reference.

10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. It is clearly pagan.

12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.

13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.

14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in Eternal Conscious Torment, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.

16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.

21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.

22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

A victory lap for the glory of God indeed! Great stuff.

Just a couple of minor tweaks you might like to consider:

Point 2 - God not only saw His creation as good, but as VERY good. Creation was exceedingly good, a superlative job, even by divine standards!

Point 8 - the exception being the LOF. To be fair, the nations all get the Godfire treatment in Rev 20:9 when they come to besiege Jerusalem. Some compare this with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is ok because the nations do reappear to worship God in Rev 21:24, having been made anew/ born again.

Point 12 - Hell would be bad news for all, both directly for the many, and indirectly for the elect, as they/we would all have some loved one who didn't 'make the cut'.

Generally, don't know whether the contradiction of ECT with God's nature of love and the divine attributes of truth, goodness, grace, mercy, justice and wisdom is worth consolidating into its own point. Not like you haven't already made a pretty solid case there lol.

I take it you're planning to publish said book?
 
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Saint Steven

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Yes, it is a present action not future. It is not eternal.

If they continue in the way Isaiah explains through chp. 59 it will become eternal.

As we read on to vs. 18 we read,

according to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, fury to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies, to the Islands he will repay recompense.

The wages of sin is death, we know what happened to these people.

It was an eternal turning away in the end.
You are assuming the outcome based on flawed doctrine. What does the last verse in the chapter say?

Isaiah 59:21
“As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.
 
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Saint Steven

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Yes, it is a present action not future. It is not eternal.
So you agree that your proof-text was out-of-context. Thank you.

Here's a thought.
Sometimes a text says what it says despite the context.
But those who disagree will use the "argument" of context to deny what it plainly says.
Or, will broaden the "context" until they find something to use against it.

It happens all the time, all day long on the forum.
Everyone lines up on either side of their preconceived notions and argues their side.
No one is buying, everyone is selling. (exaggeration to make a point)
 
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Saint Steven

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6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.
I've heard arguments on both sides of this one.
And though you are correct in saying the passage refers to the man, the king of Tyre, look what it says about him in verses 12-19. Were these things true of the king of Tyre? (bold emphasis mine)

Ezekiel 28:12-19 New International Version (NIV)
12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you
.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub
,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”
 
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Saint Steven

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11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. It is clearly pagan.
But what is the reality?
Is there an afterlife for everyone? At what point does it end?

Luke 20:37-38
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
 
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Saint Steven

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12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.
This is an interesting point.
It seems that hell is something the Damnationists tacked onto the gospel to give it "teeth". The threat of hell to make the conversion. Similar to the sales tactic to create urgency. "Offer expires on..."
 
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It was an eternal turning away in the end.

Dear young Charles: there is a limit with how far your youth and inexperiece will factor into your lack of the knowledge of our wonderful Father.

Aidios is not aionios !
 
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Lazarus Short

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A victory lap for the glory of God indeed! Great stuff.

Just a couple of minor tweaks you might like to consider:

Point 2 - God not only saw His creation as good, but as VERY good. Creation was exceedingly good, a superlative job, even by divine standards!

Point 8 - the exception being the LOF. To be fair, the nations all get the Godfire treatment in Rev 20:9 when they come to besiege Jerusalem. Some compare this with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is ok because the nations do reappear to worship God in Rev 21:24, having been made anew/ born again.

Point 12 - Hell would be bad news for all, both directly for the many, and indirectly for the elect, as they/we would all have some loved one who didn't 'make the cut'.

Generally, don't know whether the contradiction of ECT with God's nature of love and the divine attributes of truth, goodness, grace, mercy, justice and wisdom is worth consolidating into its own point. Not like you haven't already made a pretty solid case there lol.

I take it you're planning to publish said book?

Point 2 - I looked at the chapter in interlinear form, and "very" was not in the Hebrew, so I'll leave it as is.

Point 8 - Advice taken.

Point 12 - Since our lives here will not be spoken of or brought to mind in the new earth, what you suggest is moot.

Yes, I would like to get the book published some day. I know I've put enough hours into it.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I've heard arguments on both sides of this one.
And though you are correct in saying the passage refers to the man, the king of Tyre, look what it says about him in verses 12-19. Were these things true of the king of Tyre? (bold emphasis mine)

Ezekiel 28:12-19 New International Version (NIV)
12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you
.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub
,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”

As far as Eden, I found that Eden was mentioned in the previous chapter as just another country among other countries that Tyre traded with. As far as the other things you bolded, I just don't know - but given that he was specifically ID'd as "just a man," I'll stick to my assessment.
 
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Lazarus Short

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But what is the reality?
Is there an afterlife for everyone? At what point does it end?

Luke 20:37-38
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Man's point of view: Dead.

God's point of view: Dead for a little while, but alive forever more!
 
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Lazarus Short

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This is an interesting point.
It seems that hell is something the Damnationists tacked onto the gospel to give it "teeth". The threat of hell to make the conversion. Similar to the sales tactic to create urgency. "Offer expires on..."

Yes: to keep the pews and offering plates full.
 
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Charlie24

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Those who hate Christ are those most in need of the hope of Christ/ Yeshua/ His Salvation. Hello?

God makes His enemies His footstools, meaning we who were once far are brought near, and every knee will bow every tongue confess.

Why is the mere possibility that God might actually deliver on the angel's glad tidings of good news for all so distasteful to you?
Sorry, that is a perverted delivery of the Gospel.

Charlie will have no part of it. It's a false hope!

One can only enter the gate while their is life.
 
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Charlie24

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Dear young Charles: there is a limit with how far your youth and inexperiece will factor into your lack of the knowledge of our wonderful Father.

Aidios is not aionios !

I wish I was young and I wish I was knowledgeable.

But by the grace of God I am what I am.

Eternal really does mean eternal!
 
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Charlie24

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So you agree that your proof-text was out-of-context. Thank you.

Here's a thought.
Sometimes a text says what it says despite the context.
But those who disagree will use the "argument" of context to deny what it plainly says.
Or, will broaden the "context" until they find something to use against it.

It happens all the time, all day long on the forum.
Everyone lines up on either side of their preconceived notions and argues their side.
No one is buying, everyone is selling. (exaggeration to make a point)
I knew the contents of Isa. 59, I have read it many times.

I knew the turning away in vs.1 resulted in an eternal turning away.

I assume others did also!

The present action in vs.1 is a past action as we speak. It is now an eternal action.

That's why I referred to it an eternal turning away.
 
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I wish I was young and I wish I was knowledgeable.

But by the grace of God I am what I am.

Eternal really does mean eternal!

Dear Charles: You have clearly enunciated the scope of your knowledge of our Heavenly Father. You are indeed what you are, and like all of us blind and deaf sinners in dire need of ephphatha.

Aidios = eternal: aionios = everlasting.
 
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Charlie24

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Dear Charles: You have clearly enunciated the scope of your knowledge of our Heavenly Father. You are indeed what you are, and like all of us blind and deaf sinners in dire need of ephphatha.

Aidios = eternal: aionios = everlasting.
My knowledge of the Father's Word is at best below average.

There was a period of some 20 years where I didn't grow in His knowledge.

Yes, I am a sinner saved by grace, I am totally dependent on Him.
 
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