Godfire - a Word Study

[Charlie24]

Here's a shocker.
Even eternal life isn't eternal. (ouch)

Explain!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Explain!

It is. New wine in new wineskins.

 

[FineLinen]

When Jesus spoke of God’s judgment upon the wicked, He did so with words that implied a limited, corrective punishment. Specifically, He referred to divine judgment as aionios kolasis, meaning age-long chastisement. The idea was that a person who turns away from God and lives a life of evil will have to face justice — a purgatorial period in the afterlife — before enjoying eventual harmonious reunion with God.

Jesus explicitly prophesied that after his death on the cross and resurrection, he will “draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32). This hopeful promise was echoed by the teaching of the Apostles who founded the Christian ecclesia (church community). For example, St. Peter taught that Jesus visits sinners in hell to help them become redeemed (1 Pet. 3:18-20, 4:6).

I will draw/ drag off in power/ impel all mankind unto Me.

 

[Charlie24]

It is. New wine in new wineskins.

I'll send this one to the Pope. This may be more to his understanding.

Meanwhile I'll wait for Steven to explain it. Curious as t why eternal doesn't mean eternal.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'll send this one to the Pope. This may be more to his understanding.

Meanwhile I'll wait for Steven to explain it. Curious as t why eternal doesn't mean eternal.

In an effort to go the extra mile and bridge the void between the bosom of Abraham and the other place, I'd refer you to the variety of interpretations of the word 'Aion' and its derivatives in scripture. The word is a bit of a chameleon, so for example Gal 1:4 this present evil aion. Now you couldn't translate that as 'eternity' could you?

Aion literally means eon, which is an age, meaning it comes to an end eventually. But sometimes interpreted as 'age', 'world', 'eternity'. It's generally referring to the 'otherworldly', the spiritual age/ state. There have been many extensive word studies done.

But this thread is on 'Godfire', which is eternal, because it's of/ from God, as the OP so abundantly demonstrates.

 

[Charlie24]

When Jesus spoke of God’s judgment upon the wicked, He did so with words that implied a limited, corrective punishment. Specifically, He referred to divine judgment as aionios kolasis, meaning age-long chastisement. The idea was that a person who turns away from God and lives a life of evil will have to face justice — a purgatorial period in the afterlife — before enjoying eventual harmonious reunion with God.

Jesus explicitly prophesied that after his death on the cross and resurrection, he will “draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32). This hopeful promise was echoed by the teaching of the Apostles who founded the Christian ecclesia (church community). For example, St. Peter taught that Jesus visits sinners in hell to help them become redeemed (1 Pet. 3:18-20, 4:6).

I will draw/ drag off in power/ impel all mankind unto Me.

Can't let you by with this FL!

You can take scripture out of context and that I'll bring to your attention and let it go.

But I will not give you a pass on changing the definition of a word to fit your agenda.

Eternal does not mean (a purgatorial period in the afterlife).

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Eternal does not mean (a purgatorial period in the afterlife).

Aionios kolasis. Kolasis means correction. It has an end, a goal, a telos ie to get corrected. So the adjective takes its meaning from the noun. In this case, either 'an eon' or 'in the next age'. Or if you need it to be 'eternal', then 'corrected forever' ie fixed good and proper.

 

[Charlie24]

Aionios kolasis. Kolasis means correction. It has an end, a goal, a telos ie to get corrected. So the adjective takes its meaning from the noun. In this case, either 'an eon' or 'in the next age'. Or if you need it to be 'eternal', then 'corrected forever' ie fixed good and proper.

This is your opinion, by no means a fact.

It's a play on a word without considering context.

It has been twisted to mean what you desire it to mean.

Let's don't get into this argument, you have no ground to stand!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This is your opinion, by no means a fact.

It's a play on a word without considering context.

It has been twisted to mean what you desire it to mean.

Let's don't get into this argument, you have no ground to stand!

Not my opinion. It's definitional. Take it up with Mr and Mrs Strong:
Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

This was the subject of early Church writings. Clement of Alexandria, for example, remarked in the early 3rd century that the NT Greek always uses 'kolasis' (correction) rather than 'timoreisis' (retribution).

So my friend, the twisting is the other way. The original and proper meaning is as I've shown you.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This is your opinion, by no means a fact.

It's a play on a word without considering context.

It has been twisted to mean what you desire it to mean.

Let's don't get into this argument, you have no ground to stand!

Brother, I feel your pain. You have a certain view of the atonement, the result of which requires you to accept eternal damnation. But what if you're not seeing the spiritual dimension because you've been taught carnal doctrine?

 

[Charlie24]

Aionios kolasis. Kolasis means correction. It has an end, a goal, a telos ie to get corrected. So the adjective takes its meaning from the noun. In this case, either 'an eon' or 'in the next age'. Or if you need it to be 'eternal', then 'corrected forever' ie fixed good and proper.

Some Universalists do not argue that aionios means specifically “for a limited age”. They argue that the meaning is simply “pertaining to an age” and that the more precise meaning is determined by the context. This argument continues to make the error of deriving the meaning of an adjective directly and simply from the noun it comes from. However, here the error is mainly one of vagueness.

It would be like saying that fortunately means pertaining to fortune or that humane means pertaining to human or that fishy means pertaining to fish. Such definitions are so vague as to not really be definitions at all. When an adjective is formed from a noun, of course there is some type of relationship between the two. But the adjective takes on its own distinct meaning and does not merely mean pertaing to X. The meaning is determined by examing the actual usage of the word in sentences. When this is done, we see that the meaning of aionios, when looking towards the future, is eternal.

 

[Charlie24]

Some Universalists do not argue that aionios means specifically “for a limited age”. They argue that the meaning is simply “pertaining to an age” and that the more precise meaning is determined by the context. This argument continues to make the error of deriving the meaning of an adjective directly and simply from the noun it comes from. However, here the error is mainly one of vagueness.

It would be like saying that fortunately means pertaining to fortune or that humane means pertaining to human or that fishy means pertaining to fish. Such definitions are so vague as to not really be definitions at all. When an adjective is formed from a noun, of course there is some type of relationship between the two. But the adjective takes on its own distinct meaning and does not merely mean pertaing to X. The meaning is determined by examing the actual usage of the word in sentences. When this is done, we see that the meaning of aionios, when looking towards the future, is eternal.

In part 2 of this series on the meaning of aionios we have examined one Universalist argument against aionios meaning “eternal”. This popular argument commits the etymological fallacy by insisting that since aion means “an age”, aionios means “lasting for an age” (or something similar). Not only is it wrong to determine the meaning of an adjective from the noun it comes from, we also saw that even IF one used that method, based on data from the New Testament, the most likely meaning of aionios would still be “eternal”.

Let’s remember why this is important. If all the widely used English Bible translations are correct in translating aionios as “eternal” or “everlasting”, then the following two verses are fatal to belief in Universalism:

CSB Matthew 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

CSB 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength

 

[Charlie24]

Brother, I feel your pain. You have a certain view of the atonement, the result of which requires you to accept eternal damnation. But what if you're not seeing the spiritual dimension because you've been taught carnal doctrine?

I feel your pain also brother.

I said I didn't want to get into this argument but you insisted.

There's more to come!

 

[Lazarus Short]

This is your opinion, by no means a fact.

It's a play on a word without considering context.

It has been twisted to mean what you desire it to mean.

Let's don't get into this argument, you have no ground to stand!

If it looks like twisting, it is either:

1. Twisting.

or

2. Untwisting.

I have seen the word "sheol" rendered as "hell" when the context allowed. That means when the word was not obviously set in the real world. When the KJV translators saw it tied to the real world, they left it as "grave" or "pit." The same game was played with other words rendered as "hell," "eternal" and "damnation."

I can see how our untwisting of previous twisting can look like primary twisting. There may be no better route for you to follow than digging into your KJV with the aid of Strong's Concordance, interlinear texts (assy on biblehub) and the Oxford English Dictionary. It would serve you better than endless (eternal?) discussion here.

 

[Charlie24]

If it looks like twisting, it is either:

1. Twisting.

or

2. Untwisting.

I have seen the word "sheol" rendered as "hell" when the context allowed. That means when the word was not obviously set in the real world. When the KJV translators saw it tied to the real world, they left it as "grave" or "pit." The same game was played with other words rendered as "hell," "eternal" and "damnation."

I can see how our untwisting of previous twisting can look like primary twisting. There may be no better route for you to follow than digging into your KJV with the aid of Strong's Concordance, interlinear texts (assy on biblehub) and the Oxford English Dictionary. It would serve you better than endless (eternal?) discussion here.

What do you think of this Laz.

New Testament verses where aionios is looking forward in time.

ESV Rom. 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal (aionios) life;

In this example aionios life is seen to be equivalent to immortality. Since immortality means never dying, aionios life is life that never ends. Here we see one common meaning:

aionios: that which continues in time without ever ending, eternal

There are other verses where this definition is equally clear:

ESV Jn. 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal (aionios) life.


Because having aionios life is the opposite of perishing, it stands to reason that this means life which never ends.

ESV 2 Cor. 4:18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal (aionios).

Here aionios is seen to be the opposite of transient. The Greek word translated “transient” is proskairos and means “of what continues for a limited time” (from the Friberg Greek Lexicon). So, aionios refers to things which do not continue only for a limited time.

We are truly blessed to have such clear examples of the meaning of aionios when looking forward in time in the New Testament. Aionios life is immortal life, it is the life of one who does not perish, and aionios is the opposite of something lasting for a limited time. In other words, all those Bible translation teams for all the various translations used widely by Christians got it right. Aionios does in fact mean eternal.

 

[Lazarus Short]

What do you think of this Laz.

New Testament verses where aionios is looking forward in time.

ESV Rom. 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal (aionios) life;

In this example aionios life is seen to be equivalent to immortality. Since immortality means never dying, aionios life is life that never ends. Here we see one common meaning:

aionios: that which continues in time without ever ending, eternal

There are other verses where this definition is equally clear:

ESV Jn. 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal (aionios) life.


Because having aionios life is the opposite of perishing, it stands to reason that this means life which never ends.

ESV 2 Cor. 4:18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal (aionios).

Here aionios is seen to be the opposite of transient. The Greek word translated “transient” is proskairos and means “of what continues for a limited time” (from the Friberg Greek Lexicon). So, aionios refers to things which do not continue only for a limited time.

We are truly blessed to have such clear examples of the meaning of aionios when looking forward in time in the New Testament. Aionios life is immortal life, it is the life of one who does not perish, and aionios is the opposite of something lasting for a limited time. In other words, all those Bible translation teams for all the various translations used widely by Christians got it right. Aionios does in fact mean eternal.

For all your arguing, no, "aionios" does NOT mean "eternal," because even if we live forever, we had a beginning, so we are not, and never will be eternal. God is eternal simply because He has no beginning and no end. Putting all your text in bold does not help, btw.

Again, you are seeing things twisted. Most Bibles are to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[Charlie24]

For all your arguing, no, "aionios" does NOT mean "eternal," because even if we live forever, we had a beginning, so we are not, and never will be eternal. God is eternal simply because He has no beginning and no end. Putting all your text in bold does not help, btw.

Again, you are seeing things twisted. Most Bibles are to a greater or lesser degree.

Wouldn't say that "aionios" not meaning eternal is a matter of your opinion and not fact?

Would anyone have reason not to believe your opinion from this information?

Or is your opinion the inspired Word of the Almighty God?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Wouldn't say that "aionios" not meaning eternal is a matter of your opinion and not fact?

Would anyone have reason not to believe your opinion from this information?

Or is your opinion the inspired Word of the Almighty God?

There seems to be two camps on this question...and they are quite polarized. I fall in one camp and you in the other. Sobeit.

 

[Charlie24]

There seems to be two camps on this question...and they are quite polarized. I fall in one camp and you in the other. Sobeit.

So you admit you cannot prove your doctrine, you can only make a case for it?

 

[Lazarus Short]

So you admit you cannot prove your doctrine, you can only make a case for it?

I think I can both prove and make a case for "my doctrine," but what good is arguing if you reject everything I, and others, say?

Conversely, why do you keep posting on this thread and others, trying to convince others who have seen past the doctrines of churches?

I am currently reading a little book titled "Fossilized Customs." It is all about habits, customs, and holidays within Christianity...which trace back to paganism. It is stunning. It does not seem to be the main focus of the book, but I see Hell in the same light - a pagan belief that got into Christianity. Years ago, my quest for Truth in this area began when I saw a picture of the Tibetan Buddhist version of Hell, and realized that the only thing that separated it from the Christian Hell....was artistic style.

EDIT: I happen to have written a book on the subject of Hell, demonstrating how the UR view is a better doctrinal fit to the text of the Bible. It runs to over 240 pages now that I have added the chapter that makes up the first several posts of this thread. It would prove me case, but it is just not practical to post the whole thing here. OTOH, have you seen my "Condensation of Conclusions"?