God vs. Satan - if God is all-powerful, why does He not just kill Satan?

CrystalDragon · Jun 22, 2017

ChristopherK said:
God doesn't destroy those who disagree with Him. He provides for them the free grace of Jesus Christ as a means of salvation so that man is without excuse. If they do not repent, He sentences them to eternal judgment in Hell which is a place completely devoid of God's grace, mercy, peace, and love.

I think a good number of people struggle with the correlation to our free will, and God's omnipotence. The fact remains though that we are all creations who are given life by the mercy of God to bear His glory. Creations are always created by a creator to be used how the he/she sees fit (Rom. 9:14-24). In the case of God, while He is The Creator of all things, He is also Perfectly Good, and Loving so while we do not know the complete manifold wisdom of God, we can still take comfort in His will being done, and being done for our good (Rom. 8:28).

"Perfectly good" and "loving" are incompatible with hell.

Not to mention if God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and everything happens according to his plan, then free will doesn't exist. We just like to think it does because the alternative is too uncomfortable for us. And trying to counter it by saying "God doesn't want robots" doesn't work, because that's how we justify it ourselves. We only want to think that God doesn't want robots, but if God knows everything we can't have free will by default.

ChristopherK · Jun 22, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
"Perfectly good" and "loving" are incompatible with hell.

Not to mention if God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and everything happens according to his plan, then free will doesn't exist. We just like to think it does because the alternative is too uncomfortable for us. And trying to counter it by saying "God doesn't want robots" doesn't work, because that's how we justify it ourselves. We only want to think that God doesn't want robots, but if God knows everything we can't have free will by default.

If God weren't perfectly good and didn't have Hell then He wouldn't be perfectly good, because He wouldn't be just. The uncomfortable part comes when we accept the truth of us all deserving Hell, but have been offered mercy by grace through Jesus Christ.

Obviously you have the will to write your opinion on this forum. You may not understand the compatability between God's sovereignty and your ability to choose, but just because you don't understand doesn't make it less true.

ToBeLoved · Jun 22, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
"Perfectly good" and "loving" are incompatible with hell.

Not to mention if God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and everything happens according to his plan, then free will doesn't exist. We just like to think it does because the alternative is too uncomfortable for us. And trying to counter it by saying "God doesn't want robots" doesn't work, because that's how we justify it ourselves. We only want to think that God doesn't want robots, but if God knows everything we can't have free will by default.

How do you or anyone really know what is true and just?

I don't think we should start saying what is true and just because we don't have the whole story. We never had. And it is part of faith to trust in God that He is just and knows what He's doing.

Bob Crowley · Jun 22, 2017

Ken Rank said:
Not sure I agree with the last sentence (could just be semantics, doesn't matter anyway) but I certainly agree with the rest. He has a function, God is using him... Satan is a tool.

I suppose I have to agree. I asked my old pastor once way back in my Protestant days "Why the hell did God make Satan?"

He sat and thought for a moment, sort of shrugged, and said "Oh, he's got a job to do I suppose."

It's a most unpleasant job, but it seems he's willing to do it. This could easily lead to a discussion on predestination and free will viz. would Satan have rebelled if he knew beforehand what his ultimate fate would be - the hideousness of Hell and the lake of fire after that? Who knows.

But if we cast our mind around, many of those creatures we think of as pests have a critical job. Cockroaches are not most people's favourite pets, but they have an important role I've posted a link with reference to the ecological significance of cockroaches.

What If There Were No Cockroaches? | Cockroach Elimination

They've got a place in creation and so has Satan, unlovely as he and his vocation are.

SkyWriting · Jun 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
To me it doesn't make sense that an all powerful God would give His creation free-will and then destroy all that don't agree with Him. That to me would not be just, although God "could" do it as He is all powerful, but that doesn't seem like God's way to me.

It's not as if there is "disagreement."
God is reality (I Am) and some reject reality and a Creator.

Adstar · Jun 22, 2017

Quasar92 said:
One of the mysteries of the Christian life is why God didn’t destroy Satan immediately after Satan sinned. We know that God will one day defeat Satan by throwing him into the Lake of Fire where he will be tortured day and night forever (Revelation 20:10), but sometimes we wonder why God has not destroyed Satan already. Perhaps we will never know God’s exact reasoning, but we do know certain things about His nature.

First, we know God is absolutely sovereign over all creation, and this includes Satan. Certainly, Satan and his demons wreak havoc in the world, but they are only allowed a certain amount of freedom. We also know that God has planned everything from the beginning of time to the end. Nothing can thwart His plans, and things are proceeding exactly on schedule. “The LORD of hosts has sworn: ‘As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand’” (Isaiah 14:24).

Second, “we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28). Whatever God has planned for Satan, that plan will be the best one possible. God’s perfect wrath and justice will be satisfied, and His perfect righteousness will be glorified. Those who love Him and who wait for His plan to be fulfilled will be thrilled to be part of that plan and will praise and glorify Him as they see it unfold.

Third, we know that to question God’s plan and its timing is to question God Himself, His judgment, His character and His very nature. It is not wise to question His right to do exactly as He pleases. The psalmist tells us, “As for God, His way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30). Whatever plan comes from the mind of the Almighty is the best plan possible. It is true that we can’t expect to understand that mind perfectly, as He reminds us, “‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,’ says the LORD. ‘For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts’” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, our responsibility to God is to obey Him, to trust Him, and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not. In the case of His timing for Satan’s demise, it has to be the best possible plan because it is God’s plan.

Quasar92

I believe Gods will is to show by demonstration to the Heavenly Host just why the satanic rebellion / challenge to God is false and faulty... If God simply Zapped satan when satan started his conspiracy against God then the Heavenly Host would have seen that God ruled by only His power and might.. Not because He was justified morally or He was perfect in His abilities to be the one and only God of all existence..

So I believe God set up a demonstration by Creating the universe with our planet earth and the human race to be used by God to demonstrate to the Heavenly Host just why God was the One and only Justifiable God of all existence and to also allow satan to demonstrate just why he was / is incapable of being a god. God also demonstrates why He shall be justified in casting satan into the eternal lake of fire where He shall be in torment for ever and ever..

Ken Rank · Jun 22, 2017

Bob Crowley said:
I suppose I have to agree. I asked my old pastor once way back in my Protestant days "Why the hell did God make Satan?"

He sat and thought for a moment, sort of shrugged, and said "Oh, he's got a job to do I suppose."

It's a most unpleasant job, but it seems he's willing to do it. This could easily lead to a discussion on predestination and free will viz. would Satan have rebelled if he knew beforehand what his ultimate fate would be - the hideousness of Hell and the lake of fire after that? Who knows.

But if we cast our mind around, many of those creatures we think of as pests have a critical job. Cockroaches are not most people's favourite pets, but they have an important role I've posted a link with reference to the ecological significance of cockroaches.

What If There Were No Cockroaches? | Cockroach Elimination

They've got a place in creation and so has Satan, unlovely as he and his vocation are.

In the age old debate over free will and predestination, if we are honest with is, we find that both sides are supported in Scripture. We see words like ordained, predestined, and so forth... and we see choice in verse that might say, "I have set before you life and death, therefore chose life." (paraphrased and shortened) Both exist... so we have to reconcile that fact rather than chose a side and pit our choice against anyone who chooses the other choice. And I reconcile this by understanding that I do indeed have free will and do not know what tomorrow holds, so I must chose the steps I take. On the other hand, while God didn't create us with those choices pre-programmed, existing outside of time He knew when He made us what our choices would become. So from our perspective we have free will, but since God knows what steps we will take, we are predestined.

I said all that to say that I don't believe Satan was created to fall and try to take us with him. But, as a being that exists outside of time and even creation if He chooses, God knew He would fall and used it to reveal His glory to us and the rest of creation.

If it helps to understand my point, think of Pharaoh. Where it states in English that God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart, the Hebrew word means "strengthened" which would indicate God enhanced a heart condition that was already opposed to the character and authority of the true God.

PeaceJoyLove · Jun 22, 2017

Ken Rank said:
Agreed but I want to share a thought. This isn't directed at you, it is just a general statement for all of us to consider.

Long ago people who were part of the Zoroastrian religion converted to Christianity. Zoroastrianism has two gods, essentially a god of "good" and a god of "evil." They are equal in power but opposites in the sense of righteousness and unrighteousness.

When these people converted, they accepted the messiah and the basic tenets of the faith but their paradigm.... the lens they were raised to see through, was Zoroastrian. So, it was easy for them to view "haSatan" (The Adversary) as God's evil equal. We have a slight undertone of this within Christianity today. To hear some people talk it is almost as if Satan is a God in his own right, just opposite of the true God. Usually when I point out what I am about to say, they answer with, "Oh, of course I know that!" Yet, they way they talk stands opposed to that confession.

Satan is a created being who is not omnipotent. He cannot be "making me do it" (whatever "it" is ) and influencing you at the same time. God can, literally, speak a word and Satan would be gone... if that was God's desire. And there is "nothing" Satan can do about that. Even in the book of Job we see the Sons of God (angels) standing before God with Satan there with them... petitioning for Job. They had to ask, they are still, no matter how great and powerful we make them sound, subservient to God. They are created beings who chose against God and their final demise is written and will come to pass and again, they have no power to change that.

When YHWH said in Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil" He was speaking to a follower of Zoroastrianism and was simply stating, "there aren't two gods, I am it." Satan is literally a tool, nothing more.

Blessings all.
Ken

When bitten by a serpent, the antidote is needed. Moses' pole in the wildereness is like Jesus Christ on the cross, high and lifted up. In our garden, a Truth cast down becomes a serpent...an adversary.

PeaceJoyLove · Jun 22, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
"Perfectly good" and "loving" are incompatible with hell.

Not to mention if God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and everything happens according to his plan, then free will doesn't exist. We just like to think it does because the alternative is too uncomfortable for us. And trying to counter it by saying "God doesn't want robots" doesn't work, because that's how we justify it ourselves. We only want to think that God doesn't want robots, but if God knows everything we can't have free will by default.

We choose to obey God or not...that is the free will. If we don't, there are consequences...we get bit by a serpent. The children of Israel in scripture and their blessing or curses from God are an example of our journey of process taking place within us. Our own mind/soul chooses to satisfy itself, or we choose His spirit of Truth. A truth cast down becomes a serpent and leaves us a wandering in the desert, parched and dry. When that Truth is high and lifted up, our land/soul becomes a bubbling spring.

JackRT · Jun 22, 2017

Ken Rank said:
Long ago people who were part of the Zoroastrian religion converted to Christianity. Zoroastrianism has two gods, essentially a god of "good" and a god of "evil." They are equal in power but opposites in the sense of righteousness and unrighteousness.

When these people converted, they accepted the messiah and the basic tenets of the faith but their paradigm.... the lens they were raised to see through, was Zoroastrian. So, it was easy for them to view "haSatan" (The Adversary) as God's evil equal. We have a slight undertone of this within Christianity today. To hear some people talk it is almost as if Satan is a God in his own right, just opposite of the true God. Usually when I point out what I am about to say, they answer with, "Oh, of course I know that!" Yet, they way they talk stands opposed to that confession.

In my research the encounter with Zoroastrianism occurred much earlier during the Babylonian Exile. From that time forward Hebrew/Jewish scripture no longer attributes evil to God but to Satan. However, this was not fully processed in Jewish thought even at the time of Jesus. It is entirely possible that the Zoroastrian connection was re-enforced in Christian times as per your post.

James Honigman · Jun 22, 2017

Quasar92 said:
One of the mysteries of the Christian life is why God didn’t destroy Satan immediately after Satan sinned. We know that God will one day defeat Satan by throwing him into the Lake of Fire where he will be tortured day and night forever (Revelation 20:10), but sometimes we wonder why God has not destroyed Satan already. Perhaps we will never know God’s exact reasoning, but we do know certain things about His nature.

First, we know God is absolutely sovereign over all creation, and this includes Satan. Certainly, Satan and his demons wreak havoc in the world, but they are only allowed a certain amount of freedom. We also know that God has planned everything from the beginning of time to the end. Nothing can thwart His plans, and things are proceeding exactly on schedule. “The LORD of hosts has sworn: ‘As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand’” (Isaiah 14:24).

Second, “we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28). Whatever God has planned for Satan, that plan will be the best one possible. God’s perfect wrath and justice will be satisfied, and His perfect righteousness will be glorified. Those who love Him and who wait for His plan to be fulfilled will be thrilled to be part of that plan and will praise and glorify Him as they see it unfold.

Third, we know that to question God’s plan and its timing is to question God Himself, His judgment, His character and His very nature. It is not wise to question His right to do exactly as He pleases. The psalmist tells us, “As for God, His way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30). Whatever plan comes from the mind of the Almighty is the best plan possible. It is true that we can’t expect to understand that mind perfectly, as He reminds us, “‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,’ says the LORD. ‘For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts’” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, our responsibility to God is to obey Him, to trust Him, and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not. In the case of His timing for Satan’s demise, it has to be the best possible plan because it is God’s plan.

Quasar92

If our Heavenly Father forced all of His children to love Him, what would be the point of this flesh age? All souls before us have been tested and we are being tested right now. As the Holy Bible tells us in numerous places, we will be judged, "whether we have done good or bad." To this point, Father uses Satan to tempt and try us. Have you read Job? Satan is the accuser, and he is busy. In the end, Satan will die and we will be judged worthy to inherit the new kingdom of heaven on earth, or not.

Ken Rank · Jun 22, 2017

JackRT said:
In my research the encounter with Zoroastrianism occurred much earlier during the Babylonian Exile. From that time forward Hebrew/Jewish scripture no longer attributes evil to God but to Satan. However, this was not fully processed in Jewish thought even at the time of Jesus. It is entirely possible that the Zoroastrian connection was re-enforced in Christian times as per your post.

Cyrus, I believe, was Zoroastrian. I think when Persia conquered Babylon (we always say Judah came out of Babylon when technically they came out of Persia) that was the introduction of that religion into the mix. So I agree with you that any major influences were early on... but there are still a few hundred thousand people that claim that religion "today." It never died out... it remained strong until the Muslim reign began to grow in the 7th century. So we do still have a decent window (600 +/- years) where this religion was strong enough to have had an influence on early Christianity.

Hawkins · Jun 22, 2017

Quasar92 said:
One of the mysteries of the Christian life is why God didn’t destroy Satan immediately after Satan sinned. We know that God will one day defeat Satan by throwing him into the Lake of Fire where he will be tortured day and night forever (Revelation 20:10), but sometimes we wonder why God has not destroyed Satan already. Perhaps we will never know God’s exact reasoning, but we do know certain things about His nature.

The legitimacy is God's every creature, including Satan, will be finally separated after the Judgment Day. it's all about Law, and Law allows it to occur only after everyone's final judgment.

God doesn't do thing at will all the times. If He does things at will without the related legitimacy, then God's realm is no longer a lawful realm. It is like you have an all powerful mayor in town who sentence anyone to jail, or release anyone from it at will. Then your town is now a lawless town.

DennisTate · Jun 22, 2017

Ken Rank said:
Because He allows satan to exist to reveal His own glory.

True.... and the potential repentance of a fallen angel named Azazel... that may divide the kingdom of Satan and cause it to fall... is another reason........

This would fit in with...."of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end."

A government that increases eventually moves into even the realm of the lost.

Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!

but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel.(Leviticus 16:10RSV)

In a nutshell I have came to strongly suspect that Azazel is the fallen angel who will be somewhat like General Abner who brought the ten tribes over to King David or to Rav Shaul/Paul who repented of persecuting Christians and followers of God.

I suspect that when the fallen angel Azazel returns to the God of Abraham with his whole heart...when Yom Kippur is completely fulfilled....then a major step will have been taken toward the ushering in of a truly new era of worldwide peace where even the eating habits of wild animals like lions will be altered!

Matthew 12)

ToBeLoved · Jun 22, 2017

PeaceJoyLove said:
We choose to obey God or not...that is the free will. If we don't, there are consequences...we get bit by a serpent. The children of Israel in scripture and their blessing or curses from God are an example of our journey of process taking place within us. Our own mind/soul chooses to satisfy itself, or we choose His spirit of Truth. A truth cast down becomes a serpent and leaves us a wandering in the desert, parched and dry. When that Truth is high and lifted up, our land/soul becomes a bubbling spring.

What is this truth cast down is a serpent and leaves us wandering in the desert stuff about?

ToBeLoved · Jun 22, 2017

DennisTate said:
True.... and the potential repentance of a fallen angel named Azazel... that may divide the kingdom of Satan and cause it to fall... is another reason........

This would fit in with...."of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end."

A government that increases eventually moves into even the realm of the lost.

Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!

but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel.(Leviticus 16:10RSV)

In a nutshell I have came to strongly suspect that Azazel is the fallen angel who will be somewhat like General Abner who brought the ten tribes over to King David or to Rav Shaul/Paul who repented of persecuting Christians and followers of God.

I suspect that when the fallen angel Azazel returns to the God of Abraham with his whole heart...when Yom Kippur is completely fulfilled....then a major step will have been taken toward the ushering in of a truly new era of worldwide peace where even the eating habits of wild animals like lions will be altered!

Matthew 12)

What is this about Jewish people and fallen angels?

Are you talking about sacrificial sheep in the OT

PeaceJoyLove · Jun 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
What is this truth cast down is a serpent and leaves us wandering in the desert stuff about?

When we disobey God by following our own mind, that is Truth not being upheld...not obeying the spirit but the flesh/first Adam. We form our own thought and follow it instead of God...same thing that happened in the garden. Then, we have a serpent to deal with...adversary...not God's favour...as we are opposing God.

Just as Israel was called out of Egypt in the O.T. wandered in the desert 40 years because of disobedience, this is a picture of what we go through as a son...our soul/land going through the process within coming to know who we are through/ IN Christ.

In the desert, Moses had a serpent up on a pole as the antidote for the Israelites bitten by snakes. This is a type of what Christ is for us. He became sin and was nailed to a tree, high and lifted up. If we walk in disobedience, that cross is no longer high and lifted up, but cast to the ground...a serpent that bites...We must carry our cross...Moses rod, when it was raised high, Israel had victory over their enemy. When the rod was thrown on the ground, Israel's enemies had the victory. Israel is a picture of our process of soul.

ToBeLoved · Jun 22, 2017

PeaceJoyLove said:
When we disobey God by following our own mind, that is Truth not being upheld...not obeying the spirit but the flesh/first Adam. We form our own thought and follow it instead of God...same thing that happened in the garden. Then, we have a serpent to deal with...adversary...not God's favour...as we are opposing God.

Just as Israel was called out of Egypt in the O.T. wandered in the desert 40 years because of disobedience, this is a picture of what we go through as a son...our soul/land going through the process within coming to know who we are through/ IN Christ.

In the desert, Moses had a serpent up on a pole as the antidote for the Israelites bitten by snakes. This is a type of what Christ is for us. He became sin and was nailed to a tree, high and lifted up. If we walk in disobedience, that cross is no longer high and lifted up, but cast to the ground...a serpent that bites...We must carry our cross...Moses rod, when it was raised high, Israel had victory over their enemy. When the rod was thrown on the ground, Israel's enemies had the victory. Israel is a picture of our process of soul.

Well thank you for responding. I'm not sure about all that, but the Old Testament is not my most knowledgeable Testament so I'll let others reply.

DennisTate · Jun 23, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
What is this about Jewish people and fallen angels?

Are you talking about sacrificial sheep in the OT

No...... goats........ a lamb was sacrificed at Passover.... a Spring Jewish festival... but Yom Kippur occurs in the Autumn.

ToBeLoved · Jun 23, 2017

DennisTate said:
No...... goats........ a lamb was sacrificed at Passover.... a Spring Jewish festival... but Yom Kippur occurs in the Autumn.

What does Yom Kippur have to do with fallen angels?

God vs. Satan - if God is all-powerful, why does He not just kill Satan?

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