God said: Remember the Sabbath day (Ex 20:8) - but from which past event?

[BobRyan]

In Ex 20:8 God said "REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it holy"
The "Sabbath Commandment" in Ex 20:8-11 is not the "making" of it - rather it is the call to REMEMBER it.. So it was made BEFORE that.

Jesus says the Sabbath was MADE for "mankind". Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND"

The Sabbath commandment is part of the TEN Commandments which Deut 5:22 says that God spoke "the Ten Commandments to the people... and He added no more" (Only the TEN were spoken directly to the people)

So this is the only set of commandments spoken directly by God to the people from the mountain , written on stone and kept inside the ark. (not that the TEN are the only commandments in the moral law of God - of course)

But "Remember" the Sabbath - from WHAT past event?

If it is FROM - Gen 2:1-3 when both mankind and Sabbath were made - then it is FOR mankind and was established as such in Gen 2 even before sin.

So then:

Is it from the Ex 16 event?
In Ex 16 God said this -
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord: (KJV)
26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
28 And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

OR is it from the Gen 2 event?
In Gen 2:1-3 God said this
Gen 2:
Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

==========================

QUESTION: ??So in Ex 20:8 when God said "REMEMBER the Sabbath" - which event is He primarily wanting them to REMEMBER?

Does God tell us which event is the focus to be remembered IN THE ACTUAL Commandment - of those two past events?

Ex 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. ("Sanctified" it)

hmm vs 11 of Ex 20 points us not to the Ex 16 past event... but rather to the Gen 2:1-3 past event as we can see in its quote of Gen 2.

That answers the question "remember the Sabbath -- from what past event?" IN the actual commandment.

The focus in the Sabbath commandment is not on the manna event of Ex 16... it is on the "making of mankind and of the seventh-day as a sanctified holy day" in Gen 2:1-3.

=================================
Question -- does Christ ALSO link the making of the Sabbath with the making of mankind (Gen 2) - and show the relationship that they have two each other?


Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE for man (mankind) and not man (mankind) MADE for the Sabbath" - as Christ said. Where once again we see the "making" of the Sabbath and the "making" of mankind associated together. -- just as we do in Gen 2. No wonder the Sabbath commandment itself point to that Gen 2 "making" event.

BTW in Matt 4 Jesus points back to the book of Deuteronomy saying "MAN shall not live by bread alone - but by every word that comes from the mouth of God". Once again that same term for MAN - is - MANKIND.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

 

[BobRyan]

The TEN are sometimes called the Law of the Covenant etc and on stone they are the stone tablets of the covenant at Sinai.

But as we see in the OP the Sabbath came before the LAW of the covenant made with Israel at Sinai.
Deut 5:22 "He spoke the TEN from the mountain to the people...and He added no more"

This does not mean that it was not a "sin" to take God's name in vain in Genesis 2 however.

The moral law of God ever binds all humanity as almost all denominations on planet Earth affirm
All have sinned - which means all need the Gospel. The Gospel does not free us to start "taking God's name in vain" or to break any of the moral law of God -- so that also means not breaking the ten.
James 2 "he who breaks one - breaks them all"

Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul
[*]many others as well..

So affirming the TEN is not where they differ with those who affirm the unedited unit of TEN with its "Bible Sabbath".

Where the Sabbath affirming groups differ with the Sabbath-edit group is that the first group is careful not edit the Sabbath using man-made-tradition. Rather they stand firmly on a "thus says the Lord" for their view of "The Commandments of God"

 

[pasifika]

In Ex 20:8 God said "REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it holy"

This is part of the TEN Commandments which Deut 5:22 says that God spoke "the Ten Commandments to the people... and He added no more"

So this is the only set of commandments spoken directly by God to the people from the mountain , written on stone and kept inside the ark. (not that the TEN are the only commandments in the moral law of God - of course)

But "Remember" the Sabbath - from WHAT event?

In Ex 16 God said this -
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord: (KJV)
26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
28 And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

In Gen 2:1-3 God said this
Gen 2:
Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

==========================

QUESTION: ??So in Ex 20:8 when God said "REMEMBER the Sabbath" - which event is He primarily wanting them to REMEMBER?

Does God tell us which event is the focus to be remembered IN THE ACTUAL Commandment - of those two past events?

Ex 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. ("Sanctified" it)

hmm vs 11 of Ex 20 points us not to the Ex 16 past event... but rather to the Gen 2:1-3 past event

That answers the question "remember the Sabbath -- from what past event?" IN the actual commandment.

The focus in the Sabbath commandment is not on the manna event of Ex 16... it is on the "making of mankind and of the seventh-day as a sanctified holy day" in Gen 2:1-3.

=================================
Question -- does Christ ALSO link the making of the Sabbath with the making of mankind (Gen 2) - and show the relationship that they have two each other?


Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE for man (mankind) and not man (mankind) MADE for the Sabbath" - as Christ said. Where once again we see the "making" of the Sabbath and the "making" of mankind associated together. -- just as we do in Gen 2. No wonder the Sabbath commandment itself point to that Gen 2 "making" event.

BTW in Matt 4 Jesus points back to the book of Deuteronomy saying "MAN shall not live by bread alone - but by every word that comes from the mouth of God". Once again that same term for MAN - is - MANKIND.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

From your first question, who is "them" you referring to in which the sabbath commandment was given?

 

[BobRyan]

From your first question, who is "them" you referring to in which the sabbath commandment was given?

Jesus says it is "mankind".

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND"

Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.

Is 66:23 "All mankind" specifically identified for Sabbath keeping "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

 

[pasifika]

Jesus says it is "mankind".

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND"

Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.

Is 66:23 "All mankind" specifically identified for Sabbath keeping "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Was God speaking to mankind in Exodus 20:8? In your first question in OP.

 

[DamianWarS]

The focus in the Sabbath commandment is not on the manna event of Ex 16... it is on the "making of mankind and of the seventh-day as a sanctified holy day" in Gen 2:1-3.

indeed but I've never heard of anyone claiming the former. You seem to be pointing out something already well-established in mainstream theology. What's new with the 4th commandment is the commandment part which prior to Ex 16/4th commandment it's absent from scripture. these events are about 2500 years after creation. Reading Gen 2:1-3 makes no mention of a commandment, the only commandment in creation is to be fruitful and multiply. We are forced to conclude the commandment part is first introduced and is defined within the Mosaic covenant only.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

The focus in the Sabbath commandment is not on the manna event of Ex 16... it is on the "making of mankind and of the seventh-day as a sanctified holy day" in Gen 2:1-3.

indeed but I've never heard of anyone claiming the former.

I have. I just saw a video last week of a Baptist pastor doing that very thing.

You seem to be pointing out something already well-established in mainstream theology.

I would certainly hope so.

What's new with the 4th commandment is the commandment part which prior to Ex 16/4th commandment it's absent from scripture.

There is no "do not take God's name in vain" prior to Ex 20. Some say "its absent from scripture" -- but that is nonsense when it comes to the TEN. It was always a sin to take God's name in vain even though the phrase "do not take God's name " is not found before Exodus 20.

And in Gen 2 Sabbath IS set apart for holy use (explicitly) in Gen 2:1-3 - just as Ex 20:8-11 points to Gen 2 for the origin of the Sabbath

Ex 16 shows the command to keep the Sabbath -- and that IS before Ex 20.
Ex 20 explicitly shows Gen 2 as the start point, creation point, binding argument for the Sabbath. "For IN" is the argument used in Ex 20:8-11 that is used to establish the binding nature of the command. And it points directly at Gen 2 - as you just admitted all Christians affirm.

these events are about 2500 years after creation. Reading Gen 2:1-3 makes no mention of a commandment

Ex 20:8-11 does mention the commandment and IT is the text that directs the reader to Gen 2. That alone ends your argument against that being the case.

 

[DamianWarS]

There is no "do not take God's name in vain" prior to Ex 20. Some say "its absent from scripture" -- but that is nonsense when it comes to the TEN. It was always a sin to take God's name in vain even though the phrase "do not take God's name " is not found before Exodus 20.

And in Gen 2 Sabbath IS set apart for holy use (explicitly) in Gen 2:1-3 - just as Ex 20:8-11 points to Gen 2 for the origin of the Sabbath

Ex 16 shows the command to keep the Sabbath -- and that IS before Ex 20.
Ex 20 explicitly shows Gen 2 as the start point, creation point, binding argument for the Sabbath. "For IN" is the argument used in Ex 20:8-11 that is used to establish the binding nature of the command. And it points directly at Gen 2 - as you just admitted all Christians affirm.

an implicit law of not taking your creator's name in vain is hardly much evidence for the 10 commandments being universal. The 10 have a starting point, most of the 10 are fairly clear between wrong and right and I'm sure the Hebrews weren't all that shocked but if Ex 16 shows us anything the 4th commandment was not clear and it had to be told for people to understand its meaning or to start following it. If the 4th commandment was imposed starting the events of Exodus, then this tells us the 4th is not a universal commandment which means the 10 are not universal regardless if you can pull out universal values from them or not. The Sabbath commandment is not in Genesis and when it first shows up is 2500 years after the event of creation. The 4th commandment is also not something we can say is implicit. Adam may know better not to curse at his creator, murder, steal or eat his kids, etc... but he would be ignorant of the 4th commandment unless he was told it and there is nothing to suggest he was told it nor does his Genesis peers show any understanding. He was given commandments but the 4th was not one of them.

But I'm not saying the 7th day is meaningless. the 4th inherits it's meaning from the 7th and the 7th is full of meaning, it is the antithesis to before creation which is a contrast of every other system that denies God. the 7th is light, pre-creation is darkness, the 7th is full where pre-creation is a void, the 7th is complete where pre-creation is unformed, etc.... This is a salvation metaphor and what the 7th points to is not the 4th commandment but instead to Christ who is the light of creation and turns us into a new creation (2 Cor 4:6, 2 Cor 5:17). the 4th points to the same. God ceases his work because the work is finished, and it is that rest we should be seeking, a ritual 7th day rest declares this but it in itself is a pseudo rest as the day alone can do nothing. it is only the completion brought on upon Christ that we can partake of this rest.

Ex 20:8-11 does mention the commandment and IT is the text that directs the reader to Gen 2. That alone ends your argument against that being the case.

the meaning is inherited by the 7th day which is explicted in the text and both have the same goal and declare the same thing. but the 4th introduces the commandment upon this day that is absent from the 7th. We can't just pretent it's inbetween the lines. it's not there and it's absent in the entire book of Genesis, it's absent for 2500 years. This may show the parts of the 4th that are inherited from the 7th are universal but the parts that not from the 7th are new and defined within the covenant which it is created in, and the 4th happens to be the poster commandment of the entire Moasic Covenant.

 

[Gary K]

an implicit law of not taking your creator's name in vain is hardly much evidence for the 10 commandments being universal. The 10 have a starting point, most of the 10 are fairly clear between wrong and right and I'm sure the Hebrews weren't all that shocked but if Ex 16 shows us anything the 4th commandment was not clear and it had to be told for people to understand its meaning or to start following it. If the 4th commandment was imposed starting the events of Exodus, then this tells us the 4th is not a universal commandment which means the 10 are not universal regardless if you can pull out universal values from them or not. The Sabbath commandment is not in Genesis and when it first shows up is 2500 years after the event of creation. The 4th commandment is also not something we can say is implicit. Adam may know better not to curse at his creator, murder, steal or eat his kids, etc... but he would be ignorant of the 4th commandment unless he was told it and there is nothing to suggest he was told it nor does his Genesis peers show any understanding. He was given commandments but the 4th was not one of them.

But I'm not saying the 7th day is meaningless. the 4th inherits it's meaning from the 7th and the 7th is full of meaning, it is the antithesis to before creation which is a contrast of every other system that denies God. the 7th is light, pre-creation is darkness, the 7th is full where pre-creation is a void, the 7th is complete where pre-creation is unformed, etc.... This is a salvation metaphor and what the 7th points to is not the 4th commandment but instead to Christ who is the light of creation and turns us into a new creation (2 Cor 4:6, 2 Cor 5:17). the 4th points to the same. God ceases his work because the work is finished, and it is that rest we should be seeking, a ritual 7th day rest declares this but it in itself is a pseudo rest as the day alone can do nothing. it is only the completion brought on upon Christ that we can partake of this rest.



the meaning is inherited by the 7th day which is explicted in the text and both have the same goal and declare the same thing. but the 4th introduces the commandment upon this day that is absent from the 7th. We can't just pretent it's inbetween the lines. it's not there and it's absent in the entire book of Genesis, it's absent for 2500 years. This may show the parts of the 4th that are inherited from the 7th are universal but the parts that not from the 7th are new and defined within the covenant which it is created in, and the 4th happens to be the poster commandment of the entire Moasic Covenant.

The Bible tells us:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So why were Adam and Eve kicked our of the Garden of Eden? There is certainly no law in the Bible about eating a piece of fruit.

 

[DamianWarS]

The Bible tells us:



So why were Adam and Eve kicked our of the Garden of Eden? There is certainly no law in the Bible about eating a piece of fruit.

Adam and Eve were told not to eat the fruit direct by God and this is called the edenic law/covenant. So there is a law in the Bible not to eat a piece of fruit and to not even touch it so I'm not sure the issue with that.

The goal of the law points to Christ and is counter-sin and pro-righteousness. (The edenic law points to Christ too) The law can't accomplish righteousness, thus the need for Christ, but restored relationship with God by way of righteousness is what it's focus is, which just need Christ to accomplished that goal and the law is not focused on sin which separates us from God.

When we commit sin go against the focus of the law, thus transgress it. But the reverse is true as well. If all sin transgresses the law, all righteousness keeps the law. Jesus tells us similar remarks telling us it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. In building to this he gives examples of breaking the Sabbath but because the work is good it is lawful. This is a heuristic approach to keeping the law over a list of commandments.

"good" needs some unpacking but we can at least establish that doing it keeps the law and the inverse should be true as well, that doing "bad" breaks the law which is essentially what 1 Jn 3:4 is saying. So with Jesus example pulling sheep out of pits is good/lawful and we can infer leaving sheep in pits bad/transgresses the law

Another example I may not steal from my neighbouror or lie to them, I may not covet their things or murder them or have an affair with their wife. By not doing those things I keep the letter of the law, but this does not address the heart. I may in fact hate my neighbour and ingore any needs they have. Although I keep the letter of the law my heart violates it.

When I love my neighbour I look out for their needs and makes sure they are cared for. The product of which is I also don't steal or lie, covet, murder, etc... But I also do a whole lot more because of my love for them, like cutting their grass, inviting them out for a BBQ, helping them do their taxes, etc...

Both examples may keep the letter of the law but it is the example of love that truly upholds it, so love established the acts lawful, and hate breaks the law. We can use this as our approach to living, serve God and love your neighbour and this keeps the law. Jesus of course says the same thing

 

[Gary K]

Adam and Eve were told not to eat the fruit direct by God and this is called the edenic law/covenant. So there is a law in the Bible not to eat a piece of fruit and to not even touch it so I'm not sure the issue with that.

The goal of the law points to Christ and is counter-sin and pro-righteousness. (The edenic law points to Christ too) The law can't accomplish righteousness, thus the need for Christ, but restored relationship with God by way of righteousness is what it's focus is, which just need Christ to accomplished that goal and the law is not focused on sin which separates us from God.

When we commit sin go against the focus of the law, thus transgress it. But the reverse is true as well. If all sin transgresses the law, all righteousness keeps the law. Jesus tells us similar remarks telling us it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. In building to this he gives examples of breaking the Sabbath but because the work is good it is lawful. This is a heuristic approach to keeping the law over a list of commandments.

"good" needs some unpacking but we can at least establish that doing it keeps the law and the inverse should be true as well, that doing "bad" breaks the law which is essentially what 1 Jn 3:4 is saying. So with Jesus example pulling sheep out of pits is good/lawful and we can infer leaving sheep in pits bad/transgresses the law

Another example I may not steal from my neighbouror or lie to them, I may not covet their things or murder them or have an affair with their wife. By not doing those things I keep the letter of the law, but this does not address the heart. I may in fact hate my neighbour and ingore any needs they have. Although I keep the letter of the law my heart violates it.

When I love my neighbour I look out for their needs and makes sure they are cared for. The product of which is I also don't steal or lie, covet, murder, etc... But I also do a whole lot more because of my love for them, like cutting their grass, inviting them out for a BBQ, helping them do their taxes, etc...

Both examples may keep the letter of the law but it is the example of love that truly upholds it, so love established the acts lawful, and hate breaks the law. We can use this as our approach to living, serve God and love your neighbour and this keeps the law. Jesus of course says the same thing

I disagree once again. You don't seem to pay much attention to scripture.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[DamianWarS]

I disagree once again. You don't seem to pay much attention to scripture.

I have no idea what your motive here is, I'll suggest you start another thread if this is such an interest for you.

 

[Gary K]

I have no idea what your motive here is, I'll suggest you start another thread if this is such an interest for you.

Sorry this took so long to answer.

I said you ignore scripture because you do. The Bible says nothing about an Edenic covenant. The only moral law it contains are the 10 commandments. Plus the Bible says the transgression of the law, the 10 commandments, is sin.

 

[DamianWarS]

Sorry this took so long to answer.

I said you ignore scripture because you do. The Bible says nothing about an Edenic covenant. The only moral law it contains are the 10 commandments. Plus the Bible says the transgression of the law, the 10 commandments, is sin.

Do you know the bible doesn't speak of moral law either yet your position hinges upon this post-biblical classification. I still don't know what your point is, commandments are clearly given to Adam and Eve. Covenant is just a word that means an agreement and is implicit everytime an authority speaks by nature of being under that authority. Or do you also have a unconventional definition of covenant too?

 

[Gary K]

Do you know the bible doesn't speak of moral law either yet your position hinges upon this post-biblical classification. I still don't know what your point is, commandments are clearly given to Adam and Eve. Covenant is just a word that means an agreement and is implicit everytime an authority speaks by nature of being under that authority. Or do you also have a unconventional definition of covenant too?

So sin isn't a moral issue? That's apples and oranges different than the Bible not speaking to an Edenic covenant as the entire Bible is about morality.

 

[DamianWarS]

So sin isn't a moral issue? That's apples and oranges different than the Bible not speaking to an Edenic covenant as the entire Bible is about morality.

Sure, but that's not your meaning when you say "moral law", You've isolated a select few and called it moral law, the bible doesn't do that. Impliclty all obedience to God is moral and if your argument is the entire bible is about morality then the entire law is also moral law, laws like mixing grains and threads... those too are moral law in that vacuum. If you intent to isolate a select few and give it a special name then you need support for that.

 

[Gary K]

Sure, but that's not your meaning when you say "moral law", You've isolated a select few and called it moral law, the bible doesn't do that. Impliclty all obedience to God is moral and if your argument is the entire bible is about morality then the entire law is also moral law, laws like mixing grains and threads... those too are moral law in that vacuum. If you intent to isolate a select few and give it a special name then you need support for that.

No. The only law given in the Bible as a moral law is the 10 commandments. All the ceremonial laws pointed forward to Christ and thus are not moral laws even though because they pointed the Hebrews to Jesus as the solution to the world's moral problems they are only tangentially related to morality.

The ceremonial laws pointed to the coming Messiah and thus they had no meaning after the death of Jesus. Who is going to keep a law rhat no longer means anything? Not me and most likely not you either.

 

[DamianWarS]

No. The only law given in the Bible as a moral law is the 10 commandments. All the ceremonial laws pointed forward to Christ and thus are not moral laws even though because they pointed the Hebrews to Jesus as the solution to the world's moral problems they are only tangentially related to morality.

The ceremonial laws pointed to the coming Messiah and thus they had no meaning after the death of Jesus. Who is going to keep a law rhat no longer means anything? Not me and most likely not you either.

Source?

The entire law points to Christ and the 4th commandment and 7th day do it far more explicitly. Christ speaks of a higher moral code to the 4th in Mat 12 and speaks of the law of love that "the law and prophets hang on" which show that calling the 10 the only moral law is flawed. I may also keep the 10 while being immoral at the same time, Jesus addresses this in Mat 5.

 

[Gary K]

Source?

The entire law points to Christ and the 4th commandment and 7th day do it far more explicitly. Christ speaks of a higher moral code to the 4th in Mat 12 and speaks of the law of love that "the law and prophets hang on" which show that calling the 10 the only moral law is flawed. I may also keep the 10 while being immoral at the same time, Jesus addresses this in Mat 5.

Source? The writings of Moses. What I'm saying is implied all the way through Moses' writings. Implication is a very valid form of reasoning.

 

[DamianWarS]

Source? The writings of Moses. What I'm saying is implied all the way through Moses' writings. Implication is a very valid form of reasoning.

Where does Moses imply the 10 are the only moral law?

The 4th also fits your condition for ceremonial since it has a focus of the master giving rest to those without an authority to take rest. It's points to the master (Christ) who give us salvation which we are unable to take ourselves