God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

[Pythons]

All of this and you couldn't just say "Yes, Christ had the freedom of Choice." or "No, Christ did not have the freedom of choice".

Yes Jesus did the will of His Father, but that wasn't because He had no option, but because He delights to do it.

According to the Scripture He delights to do it "eternally" and because He always does the will of the Father...
...That PRECLUDES Him from ever doing ANYTHING against the will of the Father.
...This is the constant teaching of the Scriptures & Sacred Tradition - which is reflected in the Creeds.

 

[Pythons]

Stryder, here your view is not making sense.

I answered your question plainly. Did Jesus have free will? Yes.

Now answer my question. Did God know BEFORE JESUS WENT that Jesus would choose the right way and the plan would be successful?

Did God know what Jesus would choose?

If so then there was no risk. There was pain, there was difficulty but there was no risk because it was already known that it would be successful.

Risk is if you don't know if something will be successful but you undertake it anyway.

There was ZERO doubt on God's part that it would not be successful. Or else you admit God doesn't know the end from the beginning.

Tall73, do you know if Seventh-day Adventist theology and Biblical process...
...Maintains that Christ was a "free will moral agent" pre-Incarnation.
...Contrasted with "God" being unable to tell a lie, participate in iniquity, cease to exist, etc?

If there was something Ellen White said about Christ having a "choice" prior to Incarnation.....
...That would be a different entity from God as that time was prior to the Kenosis.
...Just realized this and am now I'm going to have to go dig into the G.C. archives.

 

[Stryder06]

According to the Scripture He delights to do it "eternally" and because He always does the will of the Father...
...That PRECLUDES Him from ever doing ANYTHING against the will of the Father.
...This is the constant teaching of the Scriptures...

Yeah, and I don't disagree with that whatsoever. But that doesn't answer my question. Did Christ have free choice when He was human? Yes or No?

 

[Stryder06]

Stryder, here your view is not making sense.

I answered your question plainly. Did Jesus have free will? Yes.

Now answer my question. Did God know BEFORE JESUS WENT that Jesus would choose the right way and the plan would be successful?

Did God know what Jesus would choose?

If so then there was no risk. There was pain, there was difficulty but there was no risk because it was already known that it would be successful.

Risk is if you don't know if something will be successful but you undertake it anyway.

There was ZERO doubt on God's part that it would not be successful. Or else you admit God doesn't know the end from the beginning.

I already answered your question several pages ago. God knows everything. And God knew that Christ would be successful. This doesn't change my stance at all however. Because He wouldn't doesn't mean that He couldn't. That's where the risk comes in. It's really simple. Either Christ's choices were set lock-stock-and barrel, or He had options. If He had options, then there was risk involved.

 

[Stryder06]

I wonder why Christ bothered praying this since it was a slam dunk:

39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

or this

46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

[tall73]

46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I see you are not reading the whole thread again. I will give you the same answer as DL

Because He felt forsaken. And because He was drawing their attention to the psalm they were even then fulfilling, the Psalm that predicted His death for us.

Here you prove the point. This was one hundred percent known to happen before Jesus was sent. It was recorded in psalm 22.


Psa 22:1 To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?

This same psalm records other info about the crucifixion:


Psa 22:7 All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
Psa 22:8 "He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"

Psa 22:16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet--
Psa 22:17 I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me;
Psa 22:18 they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.


It was known that this would happen. It was written before Jesus ever came. There was no doubt about how it would go.

And therefore there was no risk because it was clear before Jesus even went that it would be successful.

 

[Stryder06]

I see you are not reading the whole thread again. I will give you the same answer as DL

Because He felt forsaken. And because He was drawing their attention to the psalm they were even then fulfilling, the Psalm that predicted His death for us.


Here you prove the point. This was one hundred percent known to happen before Jesus was sent. It was recorded in psalm 22.


Psa 22:1 To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?

This same psalm records other info about the crucifixion:


Psa 22:7 All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
Psa 22:8 "He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"

Psa 22:16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet--
Psa 22:17 I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me;
Psa 22:18 they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.


It was known that this would happen. It was written before Jesus ever came. There was no doubt about how it would go.

And therefore there was no risk because it was clear before Jesus even went that it would be successful.

I know you already responded to DL when he stated this. Doesn't mean I agree with your explanation. Ever think that I was looking for someone else to put in their reasons? And you didn't explain the prayer for the cup to pass from Him.

I think the problem is that you see God seeing the future as God setting the events of the future in stone. I don't see it that way. God knowing doesn't change the factors that were involved. Everyone is given free choice. The reason why it's choice is because it involves risk. If there is no risk, there is no choice.

 

[OntheDL]

I did not duck it at all. I already responded to it.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7629290-3/#post59714818

It does not redirect to your post.

 

[OntheDL]

Your lottery ticket is a bad example.

God knew what would happen BEFORE He "bought the ticket". Or to put it another way, if God knows the winning lotto number in advance He is going to choose the winning lotto number.

If God knew in advance that a given course of action would fail He would not take it.

If He knew in advance that it would work, the where is the risk? Unless you believe God can be wrong of course.

It's a valid example because when you put the course in the hand of one who is also full human, there is always risk.

Looking back with the result, the odds didn't change during the process.

Again, God looks at the time dimension in the present tense. So your concept of the progression of the time does not apply to God.

 

[OntheDL]

No risk that it might not be sure? Huh?

It says the interpretation is sure.

 

[OntheDL]

Ah the old "balancing statement" explanation.

Ellen Whites two things that are opposite and it makes "balance" .

Her statements here are not the same as when she says there is risk in the other.

One shows God knows the future. The other says He does not.

'There is risk' doesn't mean God doesn't know the future. In plain English, she wrote, God knows the future.

The gospel writers wrote that Christ Himself feared the uncertainty.

 

[tall73]

I think the problem is that you see God seeing the future as God setting the events of the future in stone.

If it didn't happen the way He saw it then it would not be seeing the future, would it?

So yes, if God sees something as happening, it will happen.

 

[tall73]

It does not redirect to your post.

that is odd, it does for me.

 

[tall73]

It's a valid example because when you put the course in the hand of one who is also full human, there is always risk.

Looking back with the result, the odds didn't change during the process.

Again, God looks at the time dimension in the present tense. So your concept of the progression of the time does not apply to God.

Any direction God looked at it from Jesus' mission would be successful. Because it was successful and God knows the end from the beginning.

If I look at a car from any angle it is still a car.

 

[tall73]

'There is risk' doesn't mean God doesn't know the future. In plain English, she wrote, God knows the future.

In plain English if it was already known to be a success then there is not risk.

No one is doubting she said other places God knows the future. But as with other comments by EGW, saying two opposite things does not make both right.

If God knows it will be a success then it is not also a risk. The only way it can be a risk is if it can go opposite of what God has already seen.

Are you saying it could go opposite of what God saw?

 

[tall73]

The gospel writers wrote that Christ Himself feared the uncertainty.

Please state the specific text.

But also, you seem to be not taking into account an important distinction.

Jesus before the incarnation (where Ellen White talks of Him leaving heaven and risking by undertaking the plan) would have a different perspective than Jesus post incarnation.

If Jesus grew in knowledge and stature with God and man, and if He did not know the date of His second coming but only the Father did, then it is clear that one of the aspects He gave up was omniscience while on earth.

You can't grow in knowledge if you already know it all. So no, Jesus would not know every move that was going to happen in His earthly life. So ECR's earlier objection to Jesus just fulfilling a script is not completely accurate either.

However, before the incarnation God would have known. And it is there she places Jesus taking on this risk, at the very time when it would be plain there was no risk to the ultimate goal--though there would be pain getting there.

Jesus while on earth perceived the prophecies, but still had to go out and do what was spoken of Him. And without a doubt that would be challenging.

But before the incarnation it was plain what would happen.

And it was plain by the prophecies that it would happen. Or else God did not really know the future.

 

[tall73]

It's a valid example because when you put the course in the hand of one who is also full human, there is always risk.

Can any full human act other than God sees Him acting in His foreknowledge?

We have choice. God knows how we will choose.

 

[Stryder06]

If it didn't happen the way He saw it then it would not be seeing the future, would it?

So yes, if God sees something as happening, it will happen.

Yes it will happen. But that doesn't mean that God is forcing it to happen that way. Free choice involves risk. That's why it's called choice. If there's not risk involved, then there's no choice.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Yes it will happen. But that doesn't mean that God is forcing it to happen that way. Free choice involves risk. That's why it's called choice. If there's not risk involved, then there's no choice.

Personally I see it this way:

the book of life was written before the foundation of the world,

why write a book if the outcome of Jesus' mission is insecure?

in other words, writing that book means that everyone in heaven knows it will work out, or not?

 

[tall73]

Yes it will happen. But that doesn't mean that God is forcing it to happen that way.

Since no one said He was, why state this? He knows how it will happen.

Free choice involves risk. That's why it's called choice. If there's not risk involved, then there's no choice.

It involves risk for you, a mortal, who knows not how it will end and can certainly fail.

God already knew how it would end and knew He would not fail.