God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

[Stryder06]

It's like saying that Lucifer would have had to have at least a chance to defeat "God"...
...When there was "war in heaven".
...Otherwise the war in heaven was a mockery and farce.

Ever think it was a war of words?

It's more like saying "Lucifer had to rebel, because Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world and since that was the case, he had no choice but to sin and fall out of God's favor."

 

[OntheDL]

If God already knows before He sends Him that He will be successful then it cannot possibly be a risk. Or else He didn't really know.

I am saying if God had not known then you could say there was risk. Because at the point God send Him there would be doubt about what would happen. But God did know, AND tell us ahead of time, and there was no doubt about what would happen at the point He sent Him.

If you know something bad is going to happen ahead of time (God sending His Son not working) you won't do it (God wouldn't send Him).

Why did God test Abraham with the sacrifice of Isaac if He already knew what Abraham would choose?

Why did God send Isaiah to tell Hezekiah that he would die immediately if He knew 15 more years would be added to his life?

Why did God repeatedly appeal to the nation of Israel if he knew they would ultimately reject Him?

You make false assumptions about divine knowledge. God knowing the future does not determine it. His knowledge is not deterministic emanated from the past, rather is a knowledge exists in the present and the future actualized by human freewill.

You suggested Jesus lost his omniscience. But He seemed to demonstrated plenty of that attribute while on this earth. The incarnation cost him His omnipresence. What he had to learn (obedience) was to perfect his human character while being fully human.

While on the cross, Christ who is fully God feared the uncertainty and the eternal separation. There are always risks when involving human free will in the process. Christ while was/is fully God was/is also fully human.

Anyways, this topic has been discussed more than it is merited. And there never has been a consensus about God's omniscience among the theologians and scholars. You should learn to respect and accept others' opinions that differ from yours and know he who is convicted against his will is the same opinion still.

 

[Stryder06]

Why did God test Abraham with the sacrifice of Isaac if He already knew what Abraham would choose?

Why did God send Isaiah to tell Hezekiah that he would die immediately if He knew 15 more years would be added to his life?

Why did God repeatedly appeal to the nation of Israel if he knew they would ultimately reject Him?

You make false assumptions about divine knowledge. God knowing the future does not determine it. His knowledge is not deterministic emanated from the past, rather is a knowledge exists in the present and the future actualized by human freewill.

You suggested Jesus lost his omniscience. But He seemed to demonstrated plenty of that attribute while on this earth. The incarnation cost him His omnipresence. What he had to learn (obedience) was to perfect his human character while being fully human.

While on the cross, Christ who is fully God feared the uncertainty and the eternal separation. There are always risks when involving human free will in the process. Christ while was/is fully God was/is also fully human.

Anyways, this topic has been discussed more than it is merited. You should learn to respect and accept others' opinions that differ from yours and know he who is convicted against his will is the same opinion still.

/EndThread

 

[Kira Light]

The matter of the "choice" Jesus had strikes me as a little off. What were his choices?

Temporary pain vs failure, eternal loss, and the destruction of Heaven? You think there was an actual risk that Jesus would choose the latter? Is that really even a choice?

Think about it. He knows the future, He knows He will succeed on earth, and He knows exactly how everything will happen. You really think in light of this there was any chance or risk that He would instead choose failure, the destruction of Heaven, and the destruction of Himself? Temporary pain vs. the death and loss of all things for all eternity. You are saying there was a risk of that.

 

[tall73]

Why did God test Abraham with the sacrifice of Isaac if He already knew what Abraham would choose?

Why did God send Isaiah to tell Hezekiah that he would die immediately if He knew 15 more years would be added to his life?

Why did God repeatedly appeal to the nation of Israel if he knew they would ultimately reject Him?

He knew all of the above that would happen.

Or do you think He didn't?

You make false assumptions about divine knowledge. God knowing the future does not determine it. His knowledge is not deterministic emanated from the past, rather is a knowledge exists in the present and the future actualized by human freewill.

No one said it determined it. But it does know it.

He gives people tests for their benefit. And to illustrate realities. Abraham's test illustrated what God ALREADY KNEW would happen to His own Son. He was the Lamb that God would provide.

But if He knew from the beginning, the foundation of the world (and He did) that the plan of salvation would be successful, then it is not a risk.

You suggested Jesus lost his omniscience. But He seemed to demonstrated plenty of that attribute while on this earth. The incarnation cost him His omnipresence. What he had to learn (obedience) was to perfect his human character while being fully human.

Feel free to elaborate whether you think Jesus had omniscience on earth.

While on the cross, Christ who is fully God feared the uncertainty and the eternal separation. There are always risks when involving human free will in the process. Christ while was/is fully God was/is also fully human.

Anyways, this topic has been discussed more than it is merited. And there never has been a consensus about God's omniscience among the theologians and scholars. You should learn to respect and accept others' opinions that differ from yours and know he who is convicted against his will is the same opinion still.

But you have already said you believe God knows the end from the beginning. Or are you changing that now too?

Let's have it straight DL. Once God saw from before the foundation of the world that the plan of salvation in His Son would be successful, was there a chance He would be wrong?

Were the prophecies just a lucky forecast?

Now, we have not said, that God determines what you will do with your life. But you better know He knows what you will do with your life. You are no surprise to Him.

And He knew, and DEMONSTRATED He knew what His Son would do, and that He would succeed. Therefore sending His Son was not a risk.

 

[tall73]

You should learn to respect and accept others' opinions that differ from yours and know he who is convicted against his will is the same opinion still.

DL, some facts:

a. No one forced you to believe anything.

b. You freely choose whether or not to read threads or post in threads. Forum participation is not mandatory.

c. You can have any view you want. But in a discussion forum views will be discussed and compared.

 

[tall73]

The whole notion of risk is uncertainty about the future.

If God knows the future there is no uncertainty.

 

[tall73]

And there never has been a consensus about God's omniscience among the theologians and scholars.

Are you now advocating for open theism, following in the footsteps of fellow Adventist Richard Rice?

 

[JohnMarsten]

It's like saying that Lucifer would have had to have at least a chance to defeat "God"...
...When there was "war in heaven".
...Otherwise the war in heaven was a mockery and farce.

as you have seen everything in the sda is conditional...

 

[JohnMarsten]

Just tell me one ting: Was Jesus doing everything on His own,making own decisions all time long or was He led by the Holy Spirit? I am just wondering, what did ellen say?

 

[Stryder06]

The matter of the "choice" Jesus had strikes me as a little off. What were his choices?

Temporary pain vs failure, eternal loss, and the destruction of Heaven? You think there was an actual risk that Jesus would choose the latter? Is that really even a choice?

Think about it. He knows the future, He knows He will succeed on earth, and He knows exactly how everything will happen. You really think in light of this there was any chance or risk that He would instead choose failure, the destruction of Heaven, and the destruction of Himself? Temporary pain vs. the death and loss of all things for all eternity. You are saying there was a risk of that.

What I'm saying is that Jesus was fully human, and as such had the freedom of choice, just like we do. If you say He didn't then how can you say He was fully human?

 

[JohnMarsten]

What I'm saying is that Jesus was fully human, and as such had the freedom of choice, just like we do. If you say He didn't then how can you say He was fully human?

was Jesus also at risk to break one of His legs during childhood? I mean, that is not a question regarding the choices that He had, but an unfortunate accident can always happen. Could such accident have happened in His life?

 

[Stryder06]

was Jesus also at risk to break one of His legs during childhood? I mean, that is not a question regarding the choices that He had, but an unfortunate accident can always happen. Could such accident have happened in His life?

Honestly, I've always wondered how His childhood went. I know He was an unblemished sacrifice. I believe God took special care to protect Him from physical harm. I don't see how that applies to this situation though?

 

[JohnMarsten]

Honestly, I've always wondered how His childhood went. I know He was an unblemished sacrifice. I believe God took special care to protect Him from physical harm. I don't see how that applies to this situation though?

Maybe God led him to do the right thing at all times...

 

[OntheDL]

The whole notion of risk is uncertainty about the future.

If God knows the future there is no uncertainty.

That's based on your perception because your knowledge of the outcome is only based on the past.

If you had a choice to wear a white shirt or a blue shirt to work this morning, you picked the blue shirt. God already knew the outcome. Is God's knowledge based on your choice? Did you actually have a choice this morning or God predestined you to do so?

 

[OntheDL]

DL, some facts:

a. No one forced you to believe anything.

b. You freely choose whether or not to read threads or post in threads. Forum participation is not mandatory.

c. You can have any view you want. But in a discussion forum views will be discussed and compared.

Actually this is not a discussion forum. This is a fellowship forum. An allowable post is either a fellowship type post or a question. Your posts/threads are neither of the two. I'm sure you are familiar with the forum rules. If you are not, you can check with your wife who is an Admin on this site. I'm sure she can tell you if your posts are acceptable or not based on the rules.

 

[Pythons]

Actually this is not a discussion forum. This is a fellowship forum. An allowable post is either a fellowship type post or a question. Your posts/threads are neither of the two. I'm sure you are familiar with the forum rules. If you are not, you can check with your wife who is an Admin on this site. I'm sure she can tell you if your posts are acceptable or not based on the rules.

"God knows the end from the beginning...Or does He?"

Is a question.

 

[JohnMarsten]

That's based on your perception because your knowledge of the outcome is only based on the past.

If you had a choice to wear a white shirt or a blue shirt to work this morning, you picked the blue shirt. God already knew the outcome. Is God's knowledge based on your choice? Did you actually have a choice this morning or God predestined you to do so?

Are you implying that God simply forsaw what Jesus would be doing on earth? Like He saw it coming if He sent down His son He would die and thus save humanity? Is that the idea behind it?

 

[OntheDL]

Are you implying that God simply forsaw what Jesus would be doing on earth? Like He saw it coming if He sent down His son He would die and thus save humanity? Is that the idea behind it?

Not like foresee, more like post-see but in the present.

God knows the result because the result comes first. But God lives outside the time dimension, so he sees it in the present. So his knowledge is what actually happens.

 

[OntheDL]

"God knows the end from the beginning...Or does He?"

Is a question.

A rhetorical question and he then went on to debate which is not allowed by forum rules.