God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

[tall73]

This has nothing to do with "owning" the message. It only seems to be the agenda of ex-adventist to go and try to tear down the message. I don't see individuals who switch denominations outside of our church, going back and campaigning against their former affiliation.

This has the Devil's signature all over it. Despite what you might think.

You don't see former Catholics objecting to elements of Catholocism?

You don't see former Mormons objecting to elements of Mormonism?

etc.

I see those quite frequently.

In fact I know a church who even holds whole seminars on the evils of the Catholics and is overjoyed when former Catholics talk about the evils of Catholicism. In case you didn't know, that is your church.

Does your church's official attacking of other denominations have the signature of the Devil all over it?


Any church that takes the "one true church" stand will experience this. In fact on CF I have also seen converts from the Catholic faith to the Eastern Orthodox faith critique the shortcomings of their former denomination. Because both have a claim to be the true church.

Once you make that claim you will get responses.

 

[OntheDL]

I didn't coerce you into doing anything.

If you express doubt and that Ellen White could have been wrong on a couple statements, that is your conclusion.

People can read the threads from that period and decide.

Could be you are

You will defend even wrong statements of Ellen White such as ones that short-cut God's knowledge of the end from the beginning.

You continue to ignore the issues I raised to you.

Does the bible have apparent contradictions???

If yes, could they be:
1. result of our limited understanding
2. non-consequential and non-salvational

I apply the same rules to the spirit of prophecy.

 

[OntheDL]

Tall,

You are attempting to show EGW's writings say God does not know the end from the beginning.

I put a couple of key words (God knows end) in the White Estate search engine. It returned 83 matches. Here are some examples that contradict what you said.

'God knows the end from the beginning. He is acquainted with the hearts of all human beings. He reads every secret of the soul. He knows whether those for whom prayer is offered would be able to endure the trials that would come upon them should they live.' ---The Ministry of Health and Healing, p. 125.2

'The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning.... Therefore redemption was not an afterthought ... but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created.' --Gods Amazing Grace, p. 129.2

But does not God know? Is there not knowledge with the Most High? Our God sees our hearts in a different light from that in which we see them. He is acquainted with our secret thoughts. He searches into the hidden recesses of our nature. He sends answers to our prayers, when we are filled with uneasiness and distress. He gives ear to our inward groanings, and reveals to us the plague spots in our characters, that we may overcome defects, instead of being overcome by them. When unknown chapters in regard to ourselves are opened before us, the test and the trial come; and the question is, whether or not we will accept the reproof and the counsel of God. Will we cling to our own ideas and plans, and value ourselves more highly than we ought? God knows better than we do what is good for his children; and if they could see their real necessity as he does, they would say that the Lord had dealt most wisely with them. The ways of the Lord are obscure to him who desires to see things in a pleasing light to himself. God can discern the end of his purpose from the beginning; but because the Lord’s ways are not man’s ways, they appear dark, severe, and painful to our human natures. But God’s ways are ways of mercy, and their end is salvation and blessedness. -- RH July 3, 1888, par. 6

Peter saw the error into which he had fallen, and immediately set about repairing the evil that had been wrought, so far as was in his power. God, who knows the end from the beginning, permitted Peter to reveal this weakness of character in order that the tried apostle might see that there was nothing in himself whereof he might boast. Even the best of men, if left to themselves, will err in judgment. God also saw that in time to come some would be so deluded as to claim for Peter and his pretended successors the exalted prerogatives that belong to God alone. --The Acts of the Apostles, p. 198.1

You try to mud the water and misinterpret what she wrote. You are saying if you knew the result, there would be no risk. But God doesn't look at the time the way you do because He is not confined to the time dimension as you and I are and He does not perceive things the way a finite man does.

And in plain language, her writings are in harmony with the bible on this subject.

 

[OntheDL]

Those pesky Bible quotes! Quite the irritant.

I don't have problems with the bible. I love reading it.

Don't kid yourself. I haven't seen alot worse than you and you don't come with knives, guns and tanks. All you have done here in the past few years to reaffirm my faith in our message.

 

[OntheDL]

I asked you for Scriptures and you give this?

That isn't a Scripture.

We showed Scripture that God knows the end from the beginning. We showed Scripture that God predicted what would happen to His Son before His Son came.

Can you produce your Scripture that overrides that?

It's science. 1+1=2 is not in the bible but it's still universal truth that can not disproved.

You look at space with a point of reference. You look at time with a point of reference. God live outside these dimension and yet He is at every point of reference.

It's pointless to argue with you. I've shown you in my previous post EGW's writing glorify God as the one who knows the end from the beginning. That's all it matters what it clearly says not what's interpreted.

That's the old adage: don't tell me what it means, tell me what it says.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You continue to ignore the issues I raised to you.

Does the bible have apparent contradictions???

If yes, could they be:
1. result of our limited understanding
2. non-consequential and non-salvational

I apply the same rules to the spirit of prophecy.

I agree completely!

 

[Stryder06]

You don't see former Catholics objecting to elements of Catholocism?

I've not seen former catholic's campaign on the GT about the evil's of Catholicism.

You don't see former Mormons objecting to elements of Mormonism?

Don't see this too much either

In fact I know a church who even holds whole seminars on the evils of the Catholics and is overjoyed when former Catholics talk about the evils of Catholicism. In case you didn't know, that is your church.

Right, and we're not the only one. The Reformers of old pointed the finger square at the chest of the Roman power. Sadly that fire has died out as conformity and compromise has taken the place of truth. Someone should hold seminars and explain what the bible has stated. No one else seems to do it.

Does your church's official attacking of other denominations have the signature of the Devil all over it?

Who's attacking anyone? Does the bible point the finger at Rome or not? Given how you pretty much disagree with everything you once held as truth, I'm assuming you probably think it doesn't anymore. So sad.

Any church that takes the "one true church" stand will experience this. In fact on CF I have also seen converts from the Catholic faith to the Eastern Orthodox faith critique the shortcomings of their former denomination. Because both have a claim to be the true church.

Once you make that claim you will get responses.

And I have no problem answering those questions when they come and standing for what I believe. For some reason though, it seems to be thought that when someone stands for what they believe, they have to be able to convince others. That's not what we're called to do. We aren't called to convince, but to give a reason for the hope that is within us. That reason has been given time and time again. Are you trying to expose the evils in the Adventist church? Are you trying to save us from eternal hell where Ellen will surely be?

 

[Kira Light]

It's sad how this thread devolved into personal attacks. I was quite fascinated with the explanations for how God can say He is going to do something and then fail to come through. Honestly hadn't heard that before. Oh well. Carry on.

 

[Stryder06]

It's sad how this thread devolved into personal attacks. I was quite fascinated with the explanations for how God can say He is going to do something and then fail to come through. Honestly hadn't heard that before. Oh well. Carry on.

The question was asked and an explanation was given. Either you believe Christ had free choice or you don't. Somehow that portion of the discussion was just glanced over.

 

[Pythons]

OnTheDL,

If you could help me reconcile WHAT you are affirming ( that Ellen claimed God KNEW the end from the beginning )...
...With the following explicit statements.

Signs of the Times Prophetic weekly 1933, Volume 60 No. 4

TO RESTORE MEN
God's plan of salvation was to reclaim a lost, bewildered world. Sin had degraded
men, until vice had become a science and every type of evil was incorporated into the mind of man. When the heathen world had run its course of iniquity, when paganism and idolatry had engrossed the world, God sent forth His Son according to the plan, to restore men's rightful heritage as "sons of God." Jesus Christ took upon Himself the weakness, the tendencies, toward sin, that He might prove Himself a brother to His fellow men. His divine glory was hidden in humanity. "He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." Hebrews 2:16, 17. There was the danger of eternal loss in the plan. Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned and the human race been lost. For He was tempted. He could have sinned!​

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian to know that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."​

Why is it VITAL for Christians to KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT HAVE SINNED?
...Contrasted with what you said about this "not really being important", & I'm making a mountail out of an ant-hill?

Risk, "Might have", "danger" are all terms used in games of "CHANCE"...
...Such as one is able to play in Las Vegas, on the Strip.
...If God really knows the end from the beginning He could play "Roulette" and know exactly where the ball was going to HIT.
...PRIOR TO PLACING His bet - only with God it ISN'T a bet at all. It's a sure thing.

YET, you're affirming along with Ellen White that Christ being the Victor WASN'T a sure thing?
...You've not helped me understand the mechanics of this SDA prophetic schema.


Yet despite what you've said the fact remains that risk in the plan of salvation proves in SDA theology God really didn't kow for sure how things would end up.

Risk
Synonyms
1. venture, peril, jeopardy. 3. imperil, endanger, jeopardize. 4. chance.



These are ALL words used to describe a gamble - a game of chance.....
...I'm not seeing these types of descriptions used in application of God's promised Salvation in Scripture.
...I'm seeing those types of words used by Ellen White and her contemps - your publications are saturated with them.

If God says He will come and He WILL SAVE that is not the same thing as saying....
...That He will come and MIGHT SAVE so long as He doesn't deny Himself by sinning & eternally ceasing to exist.

 

[Pythons]

It's sad how this thread devolved into personal attacks. I was quite fascinated with the explanations for how God can say He is going to do something and then fail to come through. Honestly hadn't heard that before. Oh well. Carry on.

It would be nice if the thread continues in an effort to answer that question....
...How could God know the end from the beginning and not 100% know if Christ would make it?


Ellen White
It was here that the mysterious cup trembled in his hand. It was here the destiny of a lost world was hanging in the balance. Would his human nature bear the strain? Would the sins of an apostate world, since Adam’s transgression to the close of time, be laid upon him? Would he drink the cup? Or would he wipe the blood drops from his brow, and cast from his soul the guilt of a perishing world, which was placing him, all innocent, all undeserving, under the penalty of a just law? Would he refuse to become man’s substitute and surety, refuse to give him another trial, another probation? It was not yet too late to refuse to drink that awful cup of suffering, the wrath of his Father against transgression.

 

[Kira Light]

It would be nice if the thread continues in an effort to answer that question....
...How could God know the end from the beginning and not 100% know if Christ would make it?


Ellen White
It was here that the mysterious cup trembled in his hand. It was here the destiny of a lost world was hanging in the balance. Would his human nature bear the strain? Would the sins of an apostate world, since Adam’s transgression to the close of time, be laid upon him? Would he drink the cup? Or would he wipe the blood drops from his brow, and cast from his soul the guilt of a perishing world, which was placing him, all innocent, all undeserving, under the penalty of a just law? Would he refuse to become man’s substitute and surety, refuse to give him another trial, another probation? It was not yet too late to refuse to drink that awful cup of suffering, the wrath of his Father against transgression.

I'm still struggling with it. He says He is going to do it. He knows exactly how things are going to be in the end. Yet "free will" somehow trumps all of that creating the risk that He may not do what He already KNOWS He will do!

 

[Pythons]

I'm still struggling with it. He says He is going to do it. He knows exactly how things are going to be in the end. Yet "free will" somehow trumps all of that creating the risk that He may not do what He already KNOWS He will do!

Yes, that's how I understand the SDA rubrics as well....
...The question obviously becomes - WHAT was it that manifested in the flesh?
...Because there is NO CHANGING with God it obviously wasn't fully God but something else.
...Something that was only CONDITIONALLY God - something that could have had it's deity revoked.

Whatever this schema is - it is understood that the teaching of chance, risk & possible failure of Christ is VITAL for Christians to believe....
...And that equates to a FUNDAMENTAL Doctrine.

 

[OntheDL]

Knowing the result equals no risk?

Lets suppose you bought a lottery ticket yesterday. Then today you found out you didn't win.

What's the chance of winning for you before and at the time of purchase? Did the result make the chance of winning zero?

Absolutely not! If you had not brought the ticket, your chance of winning would have been zero. If you had brought all the tickets that covered every possible combination, your chance of winning would have been 100%.

But everything else is in between. The result has nothing to do with the probability in the process.

Furthermore, while we are doing the text proving, I'd like ask for the text where the bible says knowing the end from the beginning is the same as no risk.

Is there such a text?

 

[Stryder06]

It would be nice if the thread continues in an effort to answer that question....
...How could God know the end from the beginning and not 100% know if Christ would make it?

So you must believe Christ didn't have free choice? Can we get that out of the way? Yes or no.

 

[Stryder06]

I'm still struggling with it. He says He is going to do it. He knows exactly how things are going to be in the end. Yet "free will" somehow trumps all of that creating the risk that He may not do what He already KNOWS He will do!

Maybe this will help. From God's perspective, looking down the corridors of history, He sees the results of every choice that would ever be made. The risk of someone doing or not doing something does not change with God's proclimation of the end result. Can we agree to that?

 

[Pythons]

So you must believe Christ didn't have free choice? Can we get that out of the way? Yes or no.

Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow = there is no change in God...
...Jesus said He ALWAYS did the will of the Father.
...And unless something is twisted so that it's said Christ is always the same UNLESS He chooses to not be the same?

It appears to be the same type of question / reasoning used to validate....
....God knows the end from the beginning in everything except IF God would be able to complete His Salvic act?

Like I've aways said Stryder - as a Catholic Christian I believe that God can do ANYTHING....
...Except NOT BE GOD.

And from my perspective an eternally annihilated dead God isn't a God anyway....
...And according to what I'm reading in the Bible a conditional God isn't a God in the first place.

 

[Pythons]

Knowing the result equals no risk?

No, there is zero risk.

Lets suppose you bought a lottery ticket yesterday. Then today you found out you didn't win.

That, right there IS RISK, you indeed have the possibility of failing to win the lottery....
...You don't know for sure IF you will win the lottery.

What's the chance of winning for you before and at the time of purchase? Did the result make the chance of winning zero?

No, not for me, however I'm not God who indeed knows what the results of the lottery WILL be...
...For God, EVERY card is an Ace card.

Our Infinite God knows exactly how everything ends up in the wash...
...And when our Infinite God communicates to us how a specific thing will end up.
...The case is closed - that's the way it will be.

Daniel 2,24
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of THESE kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall NEVER be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what SHALL come to pass hereafter: AND the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Absolutely not! If you had not brought the ticket, your chance of winning would have been zero. If you had brought all the tickets that covered every possible combination, your chance of winning would have been 100%.

In case you missed it - God said He had already bought a lottery ticket back in Daniel 2....
...And God said that ticket was 100% the winning ticket.
...What sense would there be in questioning the Great God?

Furthermore, while we are doing the text proving, I'd like ask for the text where the bible says knowing the end from the beginning is the same as no risk.

Is there such a text?

Hmmm, "what shall come to pass" & "the dream is CERTAIN"....
....Survey says?

 

[OntheDL]

No, there is zero risk.

That, right there IS RISK, you indeed have the possibility of failing to win the lottery....
...You don't know for sure IF you will win the lottery.

No, not for me, however I'm not God who indeed knows what the results of the lottery WILL be...
...For God, EVERY card is an Ace card.

Our Infinite God knows exactly how everything ends up in the wash...
...And when our Infinite God communicates to us how a specific thing will end up.
...The case is closed - that's the way it will be.

Daniel 2,24
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of THESE kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall NEVER be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what SHALL come to pass hereafter: AND the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

In case you missed it - God said He had already bought a lottery ticket back in Daniel 2....
...And God said that ticket was 100% the winning ticket.
...What sense would there be in questioning the Great God?

Hmmm, "what shall come to pass" & "the dream is CERTAIN"....
....Survey says?

The probability is same, regardless of the result. Because it can only be certain if you cover all that odds. That's just simple Math101.

I don't disagree and EGW's writings agree with Daniel 2. But it says the end result and the interpretation is sure, but it doesn't say there is no risk.

 

[tall73]

I've not seen former catholic's campaign on the GT about the evil's of Catholicism.

and yet they do. Particularly those that convert to EO.

Don't see this too much either

It happens frequently in such places as CARM. I don't visit the section here where it might happen.

Right, and we're not the only one. The Reformers of old pointed the finger square at the chest of the Roman power. Sadly that fire has died out as conformity and compromise has taken the place of truth. Someone should hold seminars and explain what the bible has stated. No one else seems to do it.


Who's attacking anyone? Does the bible point the finger at Rome or not? Given how you pretty much disagree with everything you once held as truth, I'm assuming you probably think it doesn't anymore. So sad.

So you think you can judge other churches by the Bible but if we apply the same standard it is hate?

And I have no problem answering those questions when they come and standing for what I believe. For some reason though, it seems to be thought that when someone stands for what they believe, they have to be able to convince others. That's not what we're called to do. We aren't called to convince, but to give a reason for the hope that is within us. That reason has been given time and time again. Are you trying to expose the evils in the Adventist church? Are you trying to save us from eternal hell where Ellen will surely be?

Are you trying to save your Catholic friends?