God is more willing to save sinners than sinners are to be saved

[BBAS 64]

Not so clear....
and I asked you first.
It clearly means that God DRAWS,,, ATTRACTS to Himself...

It cannot mean TO PULL because that would make
John 12:32 mean that everyone will be saved.

Good Day, GG

You are mixing up contexts here that is why you are confused.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The context here is the type of death he would die... nothing to do with Salvation.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Has to do with the universal inability of man to come to Christ.... except God does something (draws)

In Him,

Bill

 

[GodsGrace101]

Why don’t you have that same problem if it mess attract?

Because it makes more sense Hammster.
I like to think logically when it comes to God because He seems to be a logical being.

John 6:44 means that God attracts all men to Himself....some will choose Him and some will not.
Those that choose Him in order to be saved the Father will give to Jesus because Jesus died for all mankind
1 John 2:2 Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

Those that do NOT choose to be saved will be lost because we are born lost.

John 12:32 must mean attract or everyone would be saved if draw meant anything else. Jesus attracts all to Himself because of His death and resurrection. HE is the good news.

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi Bill,,,,
But why is this so important?

Do you like Romance Languages?
They tend to agree with each other and are not affected by the beliefs of the translators.

So here are a few translations in a Romance Language:

44Gesù rispose:
44Nessuno può avvicinarsi a me con fede, se non lo attira il Padre che mi ha mandato. E io lo risusciterò nell’ultimo giorno.

source: Giovanni 6, Traduzione Interconfessionale in Lingua Corrente (ICL00) | The Bible App


Giovanni 6,44
44 Nessuno può venire a me, se non lo attira il Padre che mi ha mandato; e io lo risusciterò nell'ultimo giorno.

source: La Sacra Bibbia - Giovanni 6,44-51 (C.E.I).

Giovanni 6:44
«Nessuno può venire a me, se non lo attira il Padre che mi ha mandato; e io lo risusciterò nell’ultimo giorno.

source: Prima mossa - Gv 6, 44-51 - Giovani&Dehoniani

Giovanni 6:44 La Nuova Diodati (LND)
44 Nessuno può venire a me, se il Padre che mi ha mandato non lo attira, e io lo risusciterò nell'ultimo giorno.

source: Bible Gateway passage: Giovanni 6:44 - La Nuova Diodati


John 12:32 works out the same.
The word which is translated DRAW in English means
ATTRACT in both cases.

I'd like to add that one cannot really use a lexicon because, as you see, there are many meanings for the word DRAW and for the word ALL and any of those meanings can be used for either verse.

It's always good to go to a different source.

What exactly do you think DRAW means?
Do you think it means TO PULL?

1. In John 21:6 it means TO PULL.
In Acts 16:19 it means TO PULL
Acts 21:30 PULL
James 2:6 PULL

Also, just because you PULL something does not mean it will MOVE. It may not.

Good day, GG

Thanks but that would not be Greek Lexical evidence... I will stick with what text accurately says..

IN Him,

Bill

 

[Hammster]

Because it makes more sense Hammster.
I like to think logically when it comes to God because He seems to be a logical being.

John 6:44 means that God attracts all men to Himself....some will choose Him and some will not.
Those that choose Him in order to be saved the Father will give to Jesus because Jesus died for all mankind
1 John 2:2 Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

Those that do NOT choose to be saved will be lost because we are born lost.

John 12:32 must mean attract or everyone would be saved if draw meant anything else. Jesus attracts all to Himself because of His death and resurrection. HE is the good news.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
— John 6:44

Those drawn are raised up. So I see how this fixes anything.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Good Day, GG

You are mixing up contexts here that is why you are confused.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The context here is the type of death he would die... nothing to do with Salvation.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Has to do with the universal inability of man to come to Christ.... except God does something (draws)

In Him,

Bill

I'm not confused Bill.
In John 12:32 Jesus is predicting the kind of death He will have. Right.
But what does this have to do with Him saying that He will draw all men to Himself?
It's two different thoughts withing the same verse.

John 12:32
. 32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Lifted up from the earth .... manner of death.
Will draw all men to Myself....what this will accomplish.

Verse 31 states that the ruler of this world will be cast out....does this apply to everyone? No. Just those that will accept the drawing of Jesus...those that are attracted by His message of freedom from satan.


John 6:44
God draws ALL MEN to Himself,,,I've quoted
Romans 1:19-20 a few times....
And also, God wishes no man to be lost.
2 Timothy 2:4
But, not every man wishes to be saved...
Only those that accept and believe.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Good day, GG

Thanks but that would not be Greek Lexical evidence... I will stick with what text accurately says..

IN Him,

Bill

Lexicons do not a language make.
You cannot learn a language from a lexicon.

However, this is your priviledge.
No problem.

 

[GodsGrace101]

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
— John 6:44

Those drawn are raised up. So I see how this fixes anything.

God has always drawn mankind....
Not all accept.
Those that do not accept will not be raised..or rather, they will but will not be saved.

John 5:28
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

 

[Hammster]

God has always drawn mankind....
Not all accept.
Those that do not accept will not be raised..or rather, they will but will not be saved.

John 5:28
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Where do you see “accept” in either John 6 or John 12?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Where do you see “accept” in either John 6 or John 12?

Isn't accepting God as Savior the major theme of Christianity?

I didn't mean that the words were anywhere in those verses....I was just stating the logical conclusion.

God has to be logical to me.

 

[Hammster]

Isn't accepting God as Savior the major theme of Christianity?

I didn't mean that the words were anywhere in those verses....I was just stating the logical conclusion.

God has to be logical to me.

What you’ve done, though, is change the definition of one word, and then introduced something that’s not in either verse. Do you think that’s the best way to handle scripture?

 

[GodsGrace101]

What you’ve done, though, is change the definition of one word, and then introduced something that’s not in either verse. Do you think that’s the best way to handle scripture?

If post 147 was not explained,,,it would seem that
ALL MEN are saved and this is not so.

I said that God has always DRAWN men,,,but not all will accept. If I say that God has drawn all men...and give it the meaning of dragging...it would mean that all men are saved.

But, apparently, from John 5:28-29, not all men will be saved. Some will face life...and some will face judgement.

 

[JIMINZ]

..........

 

[JIMINZ]

Within the framework of of Christianity as we know it to be, how many different ways is a person able of being Raised unto LIFE, and Not JUDGMENT?

 

[Hammster]

If post 147 was not explained,,,it would seem that
ALL MEN are saved and this is not so.

I said that God has always DRAWN men,,,but not all will accept. If I say that God has drawn all men...and give it the meaning of dragging...it would mean that all men are saved.

But, apparently, from John 5:28-29, not all men will be saved. Some will face life...and some will face judgement.

It still stands that for you to get chapters 6 and 12 to mesh, at the very least you need to insert “accept” into them.

 

[GodsGrace101]

It still stands that for you to get chapters 6 and 12 to mesh, at the very least you need to insert “accept” into them.

I believe I have.

 

[Hammster]

I believe I have.

Right. And it doesn’t fit the text. It’s called eisegesis.

 

[JIMINZ]

God has always drawn mankind....
Not all accept.
Those that do not accept will not be raised..or rather, they will but will not be saved.

John 5:28
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

What you have said about these verses, is not what the verses say about themselves.


We have the Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, Confucian Religions, which also represent certain Nations as well.

These Religions are very old and well established in these Nations in particular.

How many MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people in these Nations which have practiced these specific Religions for only the last 2,000 yrs, have actively Rejected Jesus as Savior?

Were these peoples ever DRAWN, DRAGGED, or ATTRACTED, are they not Dead in their sins already, and will they be Raised unto LIFE, or JUDGMENT?

 

[GodsGrace101]

What you have said about these verses, is not what the verses say about themselves.


We have the Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, Confucian Religions, which also represent certain Nations as well.

These Religions are very old and well established in these Nations in particular.

How many MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people in these Nations which have practiced these specific Religions for only the last 2,000 yrs, have actively Rejected Jesus as Savior?

Were these peoples ever DRAWN, DRAGGED, or ATTRACTED, are they not Dead in their sins already, and will they be Raised unto LIFE, or JUDGMENT?

What do YOU believe John 5:28-29 states?
Does it not state that some will be raised to life and some will be raised to judgement?
My point is that some men will be saved and some will not. Do you not believe this?

The people you are referencing which are of different faiths may or may not believe in God. I leave it up to God to decide if they are raised to life or judgement.
That is not for me to know.

 

[JIMINZ]

What do YOU believe John 5:28-29 states?

I believe exactly what the verses say.

Does it not state that some will be raised to life and some will be raised to judgement?

Yes it surely does.

My point is that some men will be saved and some will not. Do you not believe this?

AHHHH, that is where your missing it, those verses do not say that, that is you interjecting what you think are saying, but it is not what is actually written.

It comes down to what Salvation is based on, and theses verses do not say it.

The people you are referencing which are of different faiths may or may not believe in God. I leave it up to God to decide if they are raised to life or judgement.
That is not for me to know.

That is a cop out, you say that God Draws Attracts all men unto himself, my question was, What about theses peoples of different Religions, what has happened to them for the last 2,000 yrs. were they Drawn or not make a judgment, guess, hypothesize, are all me ATTRACTED as you believe or are they not, what is the criteria for Salvation, and what will cause them to be Raised unto LIFE?

 

[charsan]

Yes or no.

Pertinent Scriptures Luke 14:15-24

I say yes.

I say yes too.