God Doesn't Want Me To Know Him

[StanJ]

You say "when" he created the universe, he created time? How is there a "when" before time? Do you see the logical contradiction you've created in trying to explain his existence?

Well it's not really a problem if you're not limited by your understanding of a human construct. Time is not all-encompassing as is obvious because time had a beginning and an end. God didn't. When you know this it's actually quite simple. Most science fiction writers have no problem at all with time travel or understanding the time is not the only dimension.

God always existed... for an eternity... then he suddenly decides to create a whole universe at a finite point in time, some 14 billion years ago. But he always existed before that.

Yes God has always existed but we have no idea how long because long is determined by time and God didn't exist in time and still doesn't. He created time and he can function within time but he's not subject to time. You see these are the things you learn when you understand God and these are very basic things, because I know them and I am nowhere within the largest power of 10 that you can imagine, to how great and powerful God is.

I could just as easily say the universe, just is. It would mean virtually the same exact thing except the universe doesn't concern itself with who anyone sleeps with and doesn't demand anything of us or condemn anyone.
We also have good evidence the universe exists. Why go any further?

Well of course anyone can say anything but the point is you wouldn't believe it if he said it and I do. That is what faith does for those of us who have it.

And yet, he's the one who created and wishes to have a relationship with us. He created us for his purposes and yet hides himself and makes us go looking into the dark to find him and if you don't find him, there's something wrong with you and in fact, you deserve to be punished.

That's right he does but he also doesn't hide himself from us because I found him and millions upon millions of others have to so what is the problem? Is it your spiritual acuity or mine? If you're looking in the dark for God but you're definitely looking in the wrong place. God is light and in him there is no darkness so I suggest you come out of the darkness and start looking for that light.

 

[StanJ]

Ok. A Creator with its complex psychology necessarily needs an explanation as well. How do you explain that?
Where do God's thoughts come from? Human thought comes from the human brain which you say demands a creator. Where do God's thoughts come from and how does that not demand its own creator?

Again it's not up to me to explain your concept of God. That's your problem. I have never tried explaining my God to myself or anyone else. The benefit about having a lot of faith, is that you just know, there's no explanation required. Do you really think that a God of unimaginable intellect and power could ever be ascertained or justified by the likes of us humans? A flea would have a better chance of understanding a human being, than you or I would of understanding God. Take a hint from the Borg, 'resistance is futile'!

 

[AllanV]

Ok. A Creator with its complex psychology necessarily needs an explanation as well. How do you explain that?

Where do God's thoughts come from? Human thought comes from the human brain which you say demands a creator. Where do God's thoughts come from and how does that not demand its own creator?

From experience the mind is drawn deeper and further than where usual thoughts come from. There is some power and the attention is some what focused because it is real. There is a barrier in the natural mind that usually stands in the way.
Inspired thoughts come into the mind as revelations which are whole complete concepts.
This could occur the same in any language and bring the same answers.
Of course there need to be created individuals for this to happen. Humans need psychology and develop this from experience.
God is Spirit.

 

[The Cadet]

It's an incredibly manipulative thing to imply that God does not want you to know Him because God is not submitting Himself to you and your self-centered, prideful demands.

There's nothing manipulative about it - if God wanted me to know him, he could reveal himself to me in such a way that I would believe. The fact that he hasn't clearly means he is either incapable or doesn't care that much, and that's a problem given what the punishment is.

But there's nothing self-centered or prideful about demanding that in a relationship, both parties be honest and up-front about their own existence! God has decided that the best way to go about this is to hide himself and only reveal his existence to us once we already believe in him. In what other relationship in your life would you accept this? Would you enter a contract with a bank you couldn't even establish existed? Would you start a romantic relationship with a woman if you couldn't tell if she even existed? It seems to me the only place where this absurd standard is kept is with God. Which just so happens to be the only relationship we need in order to avoid being tortured forever. That's messed up.

Especially when He actually did submit Himself for all of mankind when He died for the very manipulative, prideful sins of the world by dying on a cross so we can have access to Father God.

That was 2000 years ago, and nobody took a video of it. All that's left are second- and third-hand historical accounts of an event for which historical accounts simply are not enough. And it's not about submission. There's nothing submissive about revealing your existence to someone who you want to enter a relationship with. That's just basic common courtesy.

You're real problem is you don't recognize you've sinned against a holy God and will be held to an account eventually. When you recognize your need for a Savior, you will have the opportunity to meet God.

But that's exactly backwards. How can I recognize that I've sinned against a holy God who gives me no convincing evidence of his existence? And at that point, why would I need the evidence? I already believe! This is an incredibly stupid way for God to go about revealing his existence, and leaves people like me effectively SOL.

I, me, my. Apparently you seek to start a new religion wherein God worships you.

What a bizarre leap - "He wants God to present him with evidence that He exists - he must want God to worship him!" Um... No. I have no interest in being worshipped; all I'm asking for is that a being who wants a relationship with me reveal Himself to me.

My eternal life has already begun, by the way. And the only thing stopping anyone from embarking on that journey is pride. Humble yourself before God, and He will exalt you.

Again, it's backwards - I'm supposed to humble myself before someone who I don't even know exists, then he'll show me that he exists? In what other part of your life does this apply?

 

[Cearbhall]

You sound like an unsaved person.

Really? His profile says atheist. I never would have guessed.

The faith to believe in the cross, you responding to that faith and becoming born again is all the faith you will ever have until you respond to that. Only after salvation will He provide you with more faith and more evidence that He loves you.
There is no other way. At some point in your life The Father will lead you to His Son and give you faith by grace (meaning prior to salvation you do not deserve it) just big enough to repent, agree with Him that you cannot save yourself and that you need and want a Savior.

No, that doesn't happen to everyone. So what is the supposed stimulus to take that step towards faith in the Abrahamic God?

I think that cadet is talking about your god as a concept. This is the philosophy forum, after all.

It always surprises me that some people on here don't understand the concept of disliking an idea, even if you don't think it exists in a tangible form. Yet they rail against certain other religions and economic systems...

 

[FireDragon76]

I could flip this around as see it as a problem of undue cynicism and control issues. For a while I really struggled trying to understand how it could actually be good to be a secular humanist, and I can't see how in the end. It places way too much responsibility on the individual to do the right thing, to the point it betrays what we are. We are fundamentally interdependent in our existence. Carrying around crushing guilt and shame is not, in my estimation, worth the price of the freedom of being cynical and self-assured.

I don't think God is hidden so much as sin blinds us to God's reality. And the more people cling to their sins and vices, the more of a problem this will be.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

He created time and he can function within time but he's not subject to time. You see these are the things you learn when you understand God and these are very basic things, because I know them...

How do you "know" them?

 

[StanJ]

How do you "know" them?

Because I sought God and he answered me.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Because I sought God and he answered me.

Answered you how? As an auditory voice? Did others hear this voice as well?

 

[StanJ]

Answered you how? As an auditory voice? Did others hear this voice as well?

No, through his written word and His Holy Spirit. As to what the voice sounds like, well it sounds like me, because the Holy Spirit is now part of me as He dwells in me.

 

[The Cadet]

I don't think God is hidden so much as sin blinds us to God's reality.

This doesn't change the fact that God is hidden, and could in theory communicate with us if he wanted to - or was Jonah a perfect, sinless man when God spoke to him? This does nothing to resolve the issue.

 

[StanJ]

This doesn't change the fact that God is hidden, and could in theory communicate with us if he wanted to - or was Jonah a perfect, sinless man when God spoke to him? This does nothing to resolve the issue.

God is only hidden to those who don't know what they're looking for just like when you go out grouse hunting. If you don't know the signs and what you're looking for you'll never find them but if you know what you're looking for and how to hunt them you'll have success.

 

[The Cadet]

God is only hidden to those who don't know what they're looking for just like when you go out grouse hunting. If you don't know the signs and what you're looking for you'll never find them but if you know what you're looking for and how to hunt them you'll have success.

So what am I looking for?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

No, through his written word and His Holy Spirit. As to what the voice sounds like, well it sounds like me, because the Holy Spirit is now part of me as He dwells in me.

You can find people of every different religion saying that they hear the voice of their disparate god or gods in their head. They are all correct as well, right?

 

[StanJ]

You can find people of every different religion saying that they hear the voice of their disparate god or gods in their head. They are all correct as well, right?

About the voices that they hear or that it is their a god? Well as all of the gods are Satan in disguise, then yeah I guess they could be hearing Satan.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

About the voices that they hear or that it is their a god? Well as all of the gods are Satan in disguise, then yeah I guess they could be hearing Satan.

I mean correct in that they're actually hearing their god or gods. Not an entity from your religion.

 

[StanJ]

I mean correct in that they're actually hearing their god or gods. Not an entity from your religion.

There is only one reality. There is only one truth. There is only one God. All others are fakes.

 

[Locutus]

Avoiding falsehoods? Based upon your version of truth, of course.

most non-believers are thus because they wanted to be sure religion is/was a true thing. this is entirely different from the 'don't tell lies' which I suspect you're running with.

 

[StanJ]

So what am I looking for?

Confirmation that you're right?

 

[Locutus]

Well I would say the first thing you would want to do is read what Hebrews 11:6 says. You can find that in the following link in many English translations; https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews 11:6

The Bible doesn't lead people to God, God leads people to his son Jesus and once they accept Jesus as their personal savior then he leads them by the Holy Spirit into his word and into the truth. That's the way it works not the way you tried.
When you know the truth do you keep on looking for other answers or do you stick with what you know is the truth?

I've read the Bible. All of it.

And pardon me, but what you're suggesting is that in order to believe, I must first believe. That's patently absurd.

Also, it appears you ARE saying that 'neutral' is the wrong approach to religion. Why then, do you use that approach yourself? Did you go into Islam already believing, and Hinduism? In the same way you're recommending that I do?