God Doesn't Want Me To Know Him

[Hank77]

I'm not sure what evidence could convince me. But you know who does know for sure? And could provide that evidence within seconds? God. So the fact that he hasn't done so indicates that he either can't, or isn't interested in me believing.

OR God knows that no matter what He did you would choose to not believe. God gave you free will to believe or not believe.

 

[The Cadet]

There is no way these things (human body, the sun, etc.) came into existence through evolution.

Okay, let's assume for the moment that this is true (what evolution has to do with the sun I don't know; evolution describes the change and diversification of existing species)... Even then, this statement:

The creation was clearly designed by an intelligent designer.

Is a clear non-sequitur. If we do not have a viable explanation for something, "God did it" does not win by default. You need to actually justify your claim that God did it!

OR God knows that no matter what He did you would choose to not believe. God gave you free will to believe or not believe.

So in other words, God created me knowing that nothing he did could ever convince me, and that I was destined for hell? What a horrific monster.

Look, I can't choose my beliefs. I can't just decide to shut off my critical thinking and accept things I believe to be false. No matter what threats or bribes are offered, I will never believe that 2+2=5 or that the earth is flat without considerable evidence convincing me thereof! I need evidence. I'm not sure what form the necessary evidence takes, but it's not like an Atheist has never been converted.

It doesn't really matter though, because the thrust of my argument is this. Here's how this breaks down:
1. It's impossible for me to be convinced. In that case, God wished to see me suffer in hell for all eternity when he created me.
2. It's possible for me to be convinced, but god hasn't bothered. In that case, God has no problem seeing me suffer in hell for all eternity.
3. It's possible for me to be convinced, but there is no God.

It's not really possible to come out of this without God being a moral monster or non-existent.

 

[Hank77]

So in other words, God created me knowing that nothing he did could ever convince me, and that I was destined for hell? What a horrific monster.

God created two perfect human beings, with free will. Adam and Eve. That's it. The rest of us are a product of our parents.

EDIT: God told man to go forth and multiply, He didn't say He was going to do it.

 

[afishamongmany]

Hello philosophical thinkers and foolish faith-ers,
Ah why do we do we try to convince the unconvincable of the incomprehensible? Because our invisible God says, "Do it."
@Cadet - God is not a concept to be proved. He is The Person to be known and the The Judge of all. Our judgements of Him however foolish and offensive are of no matter to Him and of no help to us.
If puny human 'logic' has convinced you that "God (is either) a moral monster or non-existent.", then which ever you prefer, live with it (which is already the beginning of hell). Your previous postings seem to imply that you think you don't deserve to go to hell. The logic of my faith leads me to believe that we all deserve nothing less. God owes us nothing. We owe Him everything. There but for the grace of God go I.
But this place is for philosophical debate so words like, grace, faith, and spiritual understanding are deemed off topic.
I'm wondering why then you have put this up here?

because,
"faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
The Bible

"... in the interval of life given to men and nations, everything in nature and history and the human conscience is pointing (i.e. "leading") men to repentance and faith? God has not left himself without a witness and has not left man without an occasion to respond. No man will ever be able to say that God did not provide an opportunity for him to repent, nor that God did not give evidence that should have led him to do so."
John Piper

"O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, ..."
The Bible

While there is life there is hope. Grace only grace.
><>

 

[Locutus]

There is no way these things (human body, the sun, etc.) came into existence through evolution. The creation was clearly designed by an intelligent designer. Think about how complex your body is man. Come on man use your brain. Speaking of the brain how complex is that? And it's just one part of the amazing human body. God is an awesome architect.

Is this genuinely your reason for believing in a specific god, specific to a small area of the Middle East and a single point in history? It's problematic for more than just the following reason .... if a deity was responsible for making the stuff you don't understand, you'd have absolutely no way of ever knowing WHICH god. There is no test for that.

 

[Locutus]

Romans 1:20-21
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Other holy books say the same thing about you.

 

[Locutus]

If puny human 'logic' has convinced you that "God (is either) a moral monster or non-existent.", then which ever you prefer, live with it (which is already the beginning of hell).

So you used your puny human logic to convince yourself that your god exists, and is good. Interesting.

 

[The Cadet]

Your previous postings seem to imply that you think you don't deserve to go to hell. The logic of my faith leads me to believe that we all deserve nothing less.

What a depressingly self-deprecating view of oneself. Yes, you deserve nothing less than eternal torment, because...

...

...No, really, what, exactly, is the great crime that makes one worthy of this? That we exist? That we aren't perfect in a way that is explicitly designed to be impossible?

God owes us nothing.

I owe my neighbor's dog nothing, but if I strung it up in my basement and spent several days working it over with a skinning knife until it died, people would rightfully call me a monster.

"O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Clay can't think. It can't feel. It isn't sentient or sapient or capable of rational thought. It can't experience pain. It is a poor comparison to humans. If I were to craft a sentient being (say, for example, an AI program built as a 1:1 model copy of a human brain), this would not give me the right to torture it, and were I to actually create "android hell", you would be right to call me a monster for doing so.

Take a step back and you see how absurd all of this becomes. Simply by means of existing and not holding up to an impossible standard you think you deserve to be tortured forever. You believe that might makes right, or that creating a being gives you the right to torment it. That's absurd.

 

[Locutus]

Then there is the famous case of Lourdes and the French atheist/writer/philosopher, Emile Zola.

.

So this deity was so determined to convince one rich and privileged Frenchman that he exists, that it was prepared to alter the course of the universe to do so.

Yet, it watches innumerable kids being raped or starving to death and does nothing.

 

[The Cadet]

@Cadet - God is not a concept to be proved. He is The Person to be known

And that's the whole point of the thread, isn't it? I've sought out God and found nothing. It's like... imagine your friend starts talking about his awesome girlfriend from Canada who you've totally got to meet. But she's not on facebook or skype, has no phone, and all the letters from her, the only method of communication your friend can produce, are written in his handwriting. It's a little like that, except that God isn't from Canada. He's everywhere. So there's really no reason why he couldn't pop in and say hello.

 

[Locutus]

What a depressingly self-deprecating view of oneself. Yes, you deserve nothing less than eternal torment, because...

...

...No, really, what, exactly, is the great crime that makes one worthy of this? That we exist? That we aren't perfect in a way that is explicitly designed to be impossible?


I owe my neighbor's dog nothing, but if I strung it up in my basement and spent several days working it over with a skinning knife until it died, people would rightfully call me a monster.



Clay can't think. It can't feel. It isn't sentient or sapient or capable of rational thought. It can't experience pain. It is a poor comparison to humans. If I were to craft a sentient being (say, for example, an AI program built as a 1:1 model copy of a human brain), this would not give me the right to torture it, and were I to actually create "android hell", you would be right to call me a monster for doing so.

Take a step back and you see how absurd all of this becomes. Simply by means of existing and not holding up to an impossible standard you think you deserve to be tortured forever. You believe that might makes right, or that creating a being gives you the right to torment it. That's absurd.

Wonderful post. I take my hat off to you.

You may even have shed a little light into the darkness, with that one.

 

[AllanV]

I have not been presented with convincing evidence that a god exists.

Any omniscient, omnipotent god would know exactly what would be necessary to convince me, and would be easily able to make that happen.

Ergo, assuming that God exists, God necessarily has no interest in whether or not I am convinced of his existence.

Now, if we assume a literal hell, wouldn't this be a horrific moral oversight on God's end?

This question can be answered by understanding the workings of the human mind from an outside perspective.

The mind tends to be predatory in the sense that it needs to protect its own self belief and it is better to make the first move. People say the best form of defense is attack.
This shapes the way all interactions occur. The mental strength required produces a hardness of the mind.
Speaking and the emphasis on the words reflects the state of the inner working of the mind.

When people are listened to for some time their impurity is absorbed in the mind and tends to produce attachments and fixtures within it. A politician, university lecturer, teacher or a preacher produces the same problem.

The thoughts then are a product of a type of hypnotic suggestion occurring continuously. When words are spoken from the mind with its thoughts that are a bit off, a self confirmation is obvious as well.

An overall need to know the results of good and evil as part of an experiential and experimental life are passed on in behavioral patterns. For instance one will fire a missile and another picks up the pieces.
This is also obvious in a compromised emotional state.

An individual needs to make the first step towards unraveling a congestion of the thought processes.

It is not a case of over intellectualizing but more of quietening the mind down. In view of how interacting with associates hold the mind in an unchanging state then some separation from the old life is probably best.

 

[StanJ]

God is so complex, there is no way he did not have an intelligent designer.

Really? You don't understand the god of the Bible yet you want to assert that somebody designed him?

 

[StanJ]

"Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe – a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must seem humble." -Albert Einstein

Although he really didn't believe in a God that was personal or interested in our day-to-day lives or well-being.

 

[Nithavela]

Really? You don't understand the god of the Bible yet you want to assert that somebody designed him?

You missed his point by a mile.

 

[StanJ]

You missed his point by a mile.

Well as I wasn't addressing your post or you, I have no idea what point you're talking about?

 

[Nithavela]

Well as I wasn't addressing your post or you, I have no idea what point you're talking about?

His point was that you claim your god to be the cause for creation, but you do not offer a cause for the creation of your god. You just push back the question for the cause one level without solving it.

This is akin to saying that the earth rests on a turtle, and if asked where the turtle rests on, you would state that the turtle sits on another turtle.

 

[AllanV]

Okay, let's assume for the moment that this is true (what evolution has to do with the sun I don't know; evolution describes the change and diversification of existing species)... Even then, this statement:



Is a clear non-sequitur. If we do not have a viable explanation for something, "God did it" does not win by default. You need to actually justify your claim that God did it!


So in other words, God created me knowing that nothing he did could ever convince me, and that I was destined for hell? What a horrific monster.

Look, I can't choose my beliefs. I can't just decide to shut off my critical thinking and accept things I believe to be false. No matter what threats or bribes are offered, I will never believe that 2+2=5 or that the earth is flat without considerable evidence convincing me thereof! I need evidence. I'm not sure what form the necessary evidence takes, but it's not like an Atheist has never been converted.

It doesn't really matter though, because the thrust of my argument is this. Here's how this breaks down:
1. It's impossible for me to be convinced. In that case, God wished to see me suffer in hell for all eternity when he created me.
2. It's possible for me to be convinced, but god hasn't bothered. In that case, God has no problem seeing me suffer in hell for all eternity.
3. It's possible for me to be convinced, but there is no God.

It's not really possible to come out of this without God being a moral monster or non-existent.

God is Spirit and is difficult to quantify and rationalize in the natural mind that is absorbed in its own biology and rebellious nature.

God instantly makes everything seen. God covers Himself with light as with a garment. We all live and move and have our being in God and are His offspring.
If His Spirit is totally active then the out come for an individual is pure thoughts in the mind and a pure heart and this reveals a submissive nature without violence. The voice should reflect the purity from within and should not have issues.

It is not that God doesn't want individuals to Know Him because He requests that everyone does so that they live.

It is written that God was going to end His creation because of man's mental state, but a prophet contended that it wasn't the best way, therefore He relented.

 

[Locutus]

God is Spirit and is difficult to quantify and rationalize .

What is 'spirit', please?

Could you define it precisely so that we may know it when we see it?

 

[AllanV]

What is 'spirit', please?

Could you define it precisely so that we may know it when we see it?

There is a spirit that can be purchased and it is in a bottle. The resulting behaviors, especially when too much is ingested, usually results in a manifestation of most of the worst known. Each drug has its own type of result and is significant in revealing the impurities held in the human mind.

The Spirit of God is in the binding force of the atom and the life in the cell and is present in the body but the natural mind limits the use of the power of it. The power is redirected through an impurity of mind and degenerates rather than regenerating.