God Did not Create Sin

[Girder of Loins]

There have been many arguments on here concerning the origin of sin, and many come from the standpoint that God created sin. I would like to refute that.

First, we must realize the attributes of God. He is loving, merciful, just, righteous, jealous, and moral. All of these attributes, the few I have listed, He is perfect in. God is perfect, and so when the Bible clearly states that God is one of these things, it means He is perfect in them.

So, let me point out one of these attributes, justice. What is justice? According to dictionary.com, justice is: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. This definition denotes punishment. What is punishment? Once again, dictionary.com describes punishment as: a penalty inflicted for an offense, fault, etc.

So, we know God is just. We know justice is a punishment for an offense or wrongdoing. Now, you may see where this is going. God's attribute denotes a wrong side of things. By being just, who He is denotes evil(or a wrong side of things).

So, we know God's character denotes evil. Does this mean he is evil? No, this doesn't. It merely makes His character assume something. You can't have cold without hot. Hotness assumes a coldness.

God did not create evil. Did he create sin? Once again, no. We know God created Lucifer and(debatable) God gave angels free will. Now we know Lucifer cannot create anything. He can only destroy or deceive(manipulation). Lucifer manipulated the assumption of evil into a physical thing: sin.

Therefore, God did not create evil. His character assumed evil, which became sin through Lucifer's manipulation.

 

[IndieVisible]

If I may attempt to explain this in another way that may be easier for some to grasp.


God is beyond any attributes we can think of, every thing you mentioned is true but God is beyond any of that.

The greatest gift God gave us was free will. He could have given us life and made us slaves, but that would not be possible for God. there is no other way then to be JUST.

Free will is just that, very just really. We can do what ever we want. Good and bad.

But what makes some thing good or bad? What is sin? Why is sin bad?

In the perfect world we are in communion and in fellowship with God! That is GOOD, it is PURE. We achieve this by putting GOD first over our own desires. Again, pure and good!

When ever we put ourselves first over God, we break this harmony, this fellowship, that is not good, it is bad, that is sin. During this we are separated from God! Separation from God is very bad! We were made to be One with God!

By giving us free will God permits us to willingly separate ourselves from God, in hope of course we return.

Therefore all sin is simply a break of fellowship with God by placing our own wants and desires before God. That is the actual sin!

All sin separates us from God and is bad, though there are different types of sins that result in different immediate consequences in our lives now. Obviously stealing candy is not as serious as being a serial killer. Each will produce different reactions and consequences here and now. But each separates us from God. God can not find delight in any form of sin, no matter how trivial it may be here and now. God simply can not be present at the moment we act out the sin. Not possible.

God did not create the evil or bad or sin. Free will is not evil or bad by itself. It's possible to have free will and do the right thing. But as children we stray to often.

Once you realize what sin is every thing makes more sense. Sin is simply the act of separation from God. We have given this separation the attribute of being bad, and evil because it is an act of placing ourselves over God.

Not sure if that helped or not

 

[Girder of Loins]

Thanks for the other explanation IndieVisible! My reasoning can be bit hard to explain in words, you should try to hear my explanation of my "World in a Bottle" theory(don't ask, it has nothing to do with anything). Go in grace brother!

 

[dewba]

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil...

 

[Girder of Loins]

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil...

Is this verse saying God created wickedness, or that He created people who became wicked out of free will? I would say the latter, because of it is the first, God is contradictory.

 

[dewba]

Proverbs 16:9
In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

 

[Paul Hunt]

Dear Girder of Loins,
This might help you define the question a little better.
In Christianity there are two interpretations of evil. One is the Irenaean Theodicy, an outgrowth of process theology. Originally the ideas of Irenaeus, a contemporary of Augustine, popularized by John Hick, Irenaean Theodicy contains one view evil’s origins. God created man imperfect, but with the capacity, through suffering, to grow into the moral image of God. The world is a ”vale for soul-making” that contains both good and evil as a means for maturing human souls toward perfection and a resulting communion with God. God alone is responsible for the presence of evil in the world; but he did it in order to provide an environment in which man could reach his full potential.
The other theodicy is Augustinian, composed of four main points. First, evil is not a positive reality in its own right. Does evil have being? Not according to Athanasius in a statement conforming to Augustinian Theodicy in On The Incarnation of the Word, “God alone exists, evil is non-being.” Augustinians believe evil exists as a privation or deprivation of something that should be but is not. Evil is an absence of that good which is a part of God’s reality. Incidentally, Pope John Paul VI would take issue with Saint Augustine on this point. “We are not dealing with a deficiency, an evil caused by the lack of something. We must realize that we face an efficiency that is evil in itself; an existing evil, an evil that is a person; an evil that we cannot classify as corruption of goodness. We are speaking of an affirmation of evil, and if this does not frighten us, it should.” Augustine’s second point is that evil’s origin is in that free will imparted by an eternally perfect God to his limited, derived, created beings. Nevertheless, his third point is that it was still right that God made a creation with the capacity for evil. The Principle of Plenitude states that the richest and most desirable universe contains every possible kind of existence, both higher and lower, ugly and beautiful. If this is so, then why does God promise us a rest in heaven and on earth where there will be no evil and the lion and lamb will lay down together? Just a thought to ponder. We’ll get back to this later. Finally, Augustinian theodicy is aesthetic. All events, conditions, and realities, even sin and punishment compose a universal harmony that is, unfortunately, only perceivable by those in heaven.

I don't agree with either Irenaeus or Augustine entirely, both have valid points.

God Bless Paul Hunt

 

[Hismessenger]

The bible says that God is in control

So now the first question is, what is he in control of. Then you must answer that with, if he is in control, how is it that his creation has power over his creation to do evil. Evil is the willful rejection of the divine will of God.

Was Judas guilty of sin or was he obedience to his purpose. Was he not prophesied in the old testament to do what he did even though he was not named, God has shown what was, is, and will be. When you reject his divine you are in sin. It isn't about doing bad things but bad thought's. The battle is in the heart/mind and when you go against the creation as given, you are outside his will but yet you are still in his divine. He knows what we will do because he created us.

hismessenger

 

[Girder of Loins]

So now the first question is, what is he in control of. Then you must answer that with, if he is in control, how is it that his creation has power over his creation to do evil. Evil is the willful rejection of the divine will of God.

Was Judas guilty of sin or was he obedience to his purpose. Was he not prophesied in the old testament to do what he did even though he was not named, God has shown what was, is, and will be. When you reject his divine you are in sin. It isn't about doing bad things but bad thought's. The battle is in the heart/mind and when you go against the creation as given, you are outside his will but yet you are still in his divine. He knows what we will do because he created us.

hismessenger

I believe God has a loose control over the world. He didn't set the world up and step back, nor does He control every outcome. But He does have a set plan that is followed loosely. There are main "points" in His plan, like Jesus being betrayed, that He controls, but He doesn't control everything. He has the power to, but He gave us free will. Obviously, with prophesy the whole free will thing isn't as free as we may think, but it still exists.

 

[Hismessenger]

How does something which doesn't exist come into being and make choices of which it had no conscious input of it's origin. Creation. Look it up.

hismessenger

 

[James-49]

How does something which doesn't exist come into being and make choices of which it had no conscious input of it's origin. Creation. Look it up.

hismessenger

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." - creation of substance

"And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep:" - the consequence of substance without control

"and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." - the presence of control without direct intervention

"And God said, Let there be light:" - direct intervention

"and there was light." - control

"And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness." - distinction established between creation controlled by direct intervention, and creation under the consequence of being without control (lawless)

"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day." - linear progression (process) established
-----------------------------------------------------
The result is that the created can be commanded what to do, and it can do what it naturally does. A cloud can bring gentle rain, or it can bring violent destruction. The cloud is created, but what it does is its state.

The first two verses of Genesis demonstrate that the created substance's state is chaotic without the direct intervention of God. It wasn't until the light was created that God first declared that state good.

Man has been given the ability to choose what state he (she) would occupy:
God commanded there be a firmanent and it was.
God commanded there be stars and there was.
God commanded there be creatures and there were.
Jesus commanded the storm to cease and it did.
Jesus commanded evil spirits and sickness to leave and they did.
- but -
God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree - but he did anyway.

Either man has the ability to choose, or some of God's commands aren't meant to be obeyed. Both indicate a certain release of control (direct intervention). But if we say God controlled (as we understand it) the entire process then He misrepresented His command to Adam: commanding one thing in order to obtain an alternate outcome.

Do you know why it's impossible for God to lie? Because what He says is. Let there be light, and there it was. So if man did not have free will, Adam would not have eaten from the tree because He was commanded by God not to.


As for the linear progression or process: I play billiards at times, and I'm pretty adept at the game because I sufficiently understand the physics of velocity and vectors.
So, a specifc betrayer resultant from generations of families, marrying into generations of families, who further were married into generations of families - each unique individual either in a state of obedience or in a state of lawlessness at any given time - making their typical day to day choices ...

... understanding how everything works, wouldn't that pose a consideration to God no greater than a nine ball straight in the corner would to me?

God is aware of all things, and He is the reason that the states of trust and lawlessness exist. He established the state of trust by direct intervention, while the state of lawlessness was a consequence of the absence of His direct intervention.
He is aware of all things, but He doesn't directly intervene in all things - until He chooses to.

To say that God requires control (direct intervention) in all things is to limit Him to our own understanding. But to say God can work in all things, both ordered and chaotic, by both direct intervention and allowance, is getting closer to an understanding that worships and honours Him.

 

[Girder of Loins]

How does something which doesn't exist come into being and make choices of which it had no conscious input of it's origin. Creation. Look it up.

hismessenger

True, it did not exist physically, Lucifer(a created being) twisted it into a physical form. Remember, Lucifer can twist stuff. He can take anything existent, weather physically or metaphysically, and twist it to his will. However, he cannot create. So, evil isn't a being, Lucifer is. Lucifer just took evil and embraced it and made it something physical(sin).

 

[IndieVisible]

Well at the risk of taking this off course, some may find it interesting nevertheless to know how the gnostics treated evil. For those not familiar with gnostic thought, it is considered heretic and totally rejected by the church. Still if you study comparative religion or the bible, it is helpful in knowing what they believed.

According to some gnostic thought, God or as they refer to Him as the First Principal, is incapable of creating or dealing with evil in any way and we can not directly communicate with the First principal. Satan created the earth and is the ruler of the earth. In order to save the people God (First Principal) carries out a rather complicated plan that through a chain of events permits Him to combat Satan. Some gnostics suggested that Satan is merely another side of god. With out going to far in detail here because it gets involved, if interested there is plenty of material available on the subject.

What this demonstrates is the problem with evil and how some people attempted to explain it.

I am of the opinion that evil is merely a separation from God. Caused by putting our own desires and wants over God, in effect trying to become gods.

 

[Paul Hunt]

Dear Sirs,

Nothing happens without the knowledge of God- Omniscience.
Nothing happens without the permission of God- Omnipotence. (Please note permission does not imply approval)
Nothing happens, even evil, that is not according to God's purposes- Wisdom of God
Nothing happens outside the control or knowledge of God- the Sovereignty of God

God allowed evil to occur. The point of the fall is not in the Garden, it is in Heaven when Satan fell. God has given us an explanation of what happened in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. He does not say why he allowed it. But make no mistake, he allowed it (the fall of Satan) to occur. Also, the fall did not enrich creation as Augustine proposes not was it necessary as Irenaeus proposes. God tells us in Genesis 1 that creation was "Very Good". What is very good to a perfect God but perfect. To say otherwise is to say the creation was incomplete. God gives us no such inkling in the Genesis account. He may have allowed the fall of Angels (some) and Man (all) but it was never necessay to complete creation. Neither did it hapeen except but his allowance through a failure to prevent it. God has control over all of creation.

God Bless

Paul Hunt

 

[Paul Hunt]

Dear Sir,

I agree with youthat he either intervenes or forebears but is always aware. As to why, Job 38-41 kind of explains it by saying his plans are simply beyond us.
You either accept that or fail to but God there says it is the difference between a creator and a creature.

God Bless Paul Hunt

 

[Girder of Loins]

Dear Sirs,

Nothing happens without the knowledge of God- Omniscience.
Nothing happens without the permission of God- Omnipotence. (Please note permission does not imply approval)
Nothing happens, even evil, that is not according to God's purposes- Wisdom of God
Nothing happens outside the control or knowledge of God- the Sovereignty of God

God allowed evil to occur. The point of the fall is not in the Garden, it is in Heaven when Satan fell. God has given us an explanation of what happened in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. He does not say why he allowed it. But make no mistake, he allowed it (the fall of Satan) to occur. Also, the fall did not enrich creation as Augustine proposes not was it necessary as Irenaeus proposes. God tells us in Genesis 1 that creation was "Very Good". What is very good to a perfect God but perfect. To say otherwise is to say the creation was incomplete. God gives us no such inkling in the Genesis account. He may have allowed the fall of Angels (some) and Man (all) but it was never necessay to complete creation. Neither did it hapeen except but his allowance through a failure to prevent it. God has control over all of creation.

God Bless

Paul Hunt

It is true that God does have control over all of creation, but Sovereignty does not mean He chooses to use it. God has the power to, but free will has more meaning to Him(to a degree). He made us to worship, and worship isn't done through robots. Its done through choice of mankind. So God is in control all the time, just not actively.

 

[Hismessenger]

You must stop and realize that Christ was given to be our savior before mankind or Satan ever fell. The word of God is true and his thoughts are not our thoughts as far as what he is doing. But our thoughts are his thoughts for his will and purpose. Did Adam have a choice to make other than what he did. Answer, no. Why didn't he have a choice? Because Christ was given to save us before we ever had a thought about choice. WE were not made manifest before this was done. Just as Judas was chosen to betray Christ. What choice did he have but to fulfill the divine will of God.

Dan 4:17 'This decision [is] by the decree of the watchers, And the sentence by the word of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, Gives it to whomever He will, And sets over it the lowest of men.'

Dan 4:25 They shall drive you from men, your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make you eat grass like oxen. They shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.

Dan 4:32 And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling [shall be] with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses."

Dan 5:21 "Then he was driven from the sons of men, his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling [was] with the wild donkeys. They fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till he knew that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whomever He chooses.

God makes this statement no less than 4 times so what makes you think that you have any choice over what you choose. You only choose what is provided for you to choose for his purpose which is not free will. God is the only being who has the ability to decide a thing and have that thing go just as he has ordained. Can you do that? Can you say to the creator, what is that, that you are doing and why? The word says NO. Can you not see the progression of understanding in these verses from Daniel.

till you know, until you know, till he knew

hismessenger

 

[Paul Hunt]

I think your examples from Daniel are taken out of context. The context was that King Nebuchadnezzar had become puffed up with pride and was being chastised by the LORD for his choice to transgress. So your example is of a man exercising free will to do wrong and being disciplined by God for that.
As to Free Will, we must differentiate between man in his original (intended) condition (Adam) and us who are fallen. In our original state God created us in his image ergo with the power of free will. Genesis 1: 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. If man did not have free will then God’s next statement makes no sense. Genesis 2: 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” God here offered man a choice which by definition implies he had the free will to make that choice either way. Touching his Omniscience God may have foreknown the outcome but that in no way invalidates man’s ability to make that choice.
Both John Calvin and Thomas Aquinas agree with this position. First John Calvin- Therefore, God has provided the soul of man with intellect, by which he might discern good from evil, just from unjust, and might know what to follow or to shun, reason going before with her lamp; whence philosophers, in reference to her directing power, have called her το` ἑγεμονικο`ν. To this he has joined will, to which choice belongs. Man excelled in these noble endowments in his primitive condition, when reason, intelligence, prudence, and Judgment, not only sufficed for the government of his earthly life, but also enabled him to rise up to God and eternal happiness. Thereafter choice was added to direct the appetites, and temper all the organic motions; the will being thus perfectly submissive to the authority of reason. In this upright state, man possessed freedom of will, by which, if he chose, he was able to obtain eternal life. It were here unseasonable to introduce the question concerning the secret predestination of God, because we are not considering what might or might not happen, but what the nature of man truly was. Adam, therefore, might have stood if he chose, since it was only by his own will that he fell; but it was because his will was pliable in either directions and he had not received constancy to persevere, that he so easily fell. Still he had a free choice of good and evil; and not only so, but in the mind and will there was the highest rectitude, and all the organic parts were duly framed to obedience, until man corrupted its good properties, and destroyed himself.
Here is Thomas Aquinas’ view- I answer that, Man has free-will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain. In order to make this evident, we must observe that some things act without judgment; as a stone moves downwards; and in like manner all things which lack knowledge. And some act from judgment, but not a free judgment; as brute animals. For the sheep, seeing the wolf, judges it a thing to be shunned, from a natural and not a free judgment, because it judges, not from reason, but from natural instinct. And the same thing is to be said of any judgment of brute animals. But man acts from judgment, because by his apprehensive power he judges that something should be avoided or sought. But because this judgment, in the case of some particular act, is not from a natural instinct, but from some act of comparison in the reason, therefore he acts from free judgment and retains the power of being inclined to various things. For reason in contingent matters may follow opposite courses, as we see in dialectic syllogisms and rhetorical arguments. Now particular operations are contigent, and therefore in such matters the judgment of reason may follow opposite courses, and is not determinate to one. And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have a free-will. Herein lies the rub. For once Adam chose to fall our nature became corrupted by sin. We still have freedom of will but we desire what is evil because we follow our father Satan. As Thomas Aquinas says- Free-will is the cause of its own movement, because by hisfree-will man moves himself to act. But it does not of necessity belong to liberty that what is free should be the first cause of itself, as neither for one thing to be cause of another need it be the first cause. God, therefore, is the first cause, Who moves causes both natural and voluntary. And just as by moving natural causes He does not prevent their acts being natural, so by moving voluntary causes He does not deprive their actions of being voluntary: but rather is He the cause of this very thing in them; for He operates in each thing according to its own nature. Our nature is corrupt. It is by Christ’s sacrifice that we are enabled to choose righteousness once we are quickened.
John Calvin makes this very clear- According to the Bible, however, the choices of man are not only ultimately determined by God, but morally determined by one’s nature. Man is indeed a free moral agent and freely makes choices, but in his natural state he necessarily acts in accordance with his fallen nature. Man willingly makes choices that flow from the heart, and sin is also always attributed to the desires of the heart (James1: 13-15). When a person turns to Christ, he does so not because of his own “free will”, but because God has supernaturally enabled and moved him to do so through regeneration. God never coerces man’s will, rather God gives the ability to believe through the work of the Holy Spirit. I’ll leave you with James 1: 13- When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
We are free, but we choose evil.
God Bless Paul Hunt

 

[Hismessenger]

John Calvin makes this very clear- According to the Bible, however, the choices of man are not only ultimately determined by God, but morally determined by one’s nature.

But the question is who is ultimately responsible for our nature. Is it the creator of All things or our own initiative. Your correct in that God cannot be tempted by evil for it is a created. If there is no darkness in God, then how is it that there is darkness in the creation. It is a created thing for His purpose in the creation. Did he not see the end from the beginning and did he not say that everything he created was good. Your perspective is that what you understand of good is directed in the moral sense, which is part of the understanding, but the other side is of good is purpose. It can be bad or good in a moral sense but where good is concerned, it is always good for his purpose. Did He not say everything that He created was very good. And if it is in the creation, then he created this for that's what creation means. To be called forth from nothing.
If it wasn't around before the creation, then it had to come from the creation.

hismessenger

 

[James-49]

You have your position that you hold to. Okay, but there's many who read these threads so that's why I post. Your position does not appear to be intellectual as your basis points are not correct, or properly researched. And your conclusions are very 2 dimensional where there's only "A" or "B", and there's no room for other possible options. In declaring a God for Whom nothing is impossible your conclusions limit Him to only the possible, ie. the only logical conclusion according to a man's understanding.

You must stop and realize that Christ was given to be our savior before mankind or Satan ever fell.

In 1 Peter 1:20 the word "foreordained" is the Greek, proginōskō which means to know beforehand. I read throughout scripture that Christ (the Word) was before all things, but I do not find where it says He was purposed before all things to be the Saviour. He became prophesied as Saviour (after creation) because of man. Again in 1 Peter: "but was manifest in these last times for you".

If there is no darkness in God, then how is it that there is darkness in the creation. It is a created thing for His purpose in
the creation.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."

The darkness was a result of the creation of substance because God had not yet begun to declare the boundaries for substance.

Did He not say everything that He created was very good. And if it is in the creation, then he created this for that's what creation means. To be called forth from nothing.

God did not call forth the darkness, according to scripture. He "created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep".
God called forth the light, and separated it from the darkness. And God called the light good.

-----------------------------------------------

Now let me ask you a question:

Gen 6:5-7 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

God was grieved, and regretted making man - what was going on here?
Was God lying because He actually intended man to be evil all along? Of course not.
Was God acting because man being evil was actually a good thing in the long run? Of course not.
Was God actually grieved at the state of man? Sounds more like God to me than the other two options.