God Did not Create Sin

[Girder of Loins]

This site is awesome.

I believe God made everything. God did not intend on individuals sinning, but Adam and Eve sinned. I believe (know) that before we sinned, we were with God, and therefore all-knowing. And when we sinned (because we were in Adam), we chose to be separate from God, and therefore we lost our ability to know. Our eyes were then opened to the positives and negatives of life. And to get closer to God, we must see the positive.

All the glory goes to God. Seriously. This site is awesome.

I agree with you except on a few points. First, I don't think we were all-knowing, or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil wouldn't need to exist. If Adam had all the knowledge, he wouldn't need to eat of it as he already knew what it contained.

Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "the positives of life". Clarification? Maybe for another thread in another time, I was just wondering.

 

[Hismessenger]

1Pe 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

You asked for proof of his being chosen to save us before the foundation of the world.
Read and understand, God is not bound by time. There is no yesterday or tomorrow. There is only perpetually today eternally. Adams choice had to be in line with the will of God. He chose what God had ordained to come to pass. Fallen man needing a savior. That savior was Christ before the foundation of the world was laid in God's mind.

hismessenger

 

[ThankGod]

I agree with you except on a few points. First, I don't think we were all-knowing, or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil wouldn't need to exist. If Adam had all the knowledge, he wouldn't need to eat of it as he already knew what it contained.

Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "the positives of life". Clarification? Maybe for another thread in another time, I was just wondering.

Well, brother, firstly..

The negatives in life are sin. When you think negative, that is the devil, who is always insearch of new victims. The positives of life are God. God is everything and plays vital roals in each and every one of our lives.

And by know, I mean they lost ability to know that God would provide for them. So because people didn't know this, they began to think. Thinking is what limits us. That is what separates us from God. When you try to use science in the world to disprove what God is, we are choosing our human-made, mistake-prone ideas over simply knowing that God is everything because God is God.

 

[3rdHeaven]

Nothing was created that was not created by God.

Does that mean sin was created by God?

Not exactly.

Sin is not a creation, it is a action.

God got the ball rolling after the Big Bang, and it's been a process of many actions afterwords.

Cause and effect.

Same with actions.

A negative action produces a negative reaction.

What is sin? A contrary action against God's will.

Can only be accomplished with free will.

Otherwise, one could make a strong case God is the author/creator of sin.

This is why Calvinism fails and is a very weak theology.

 

[Hismessenger]

The negatives in life are sin. When you think negative, that is the devil,

Many talk about being obedient to the commandments without ever realizing that the entire bible is the commandments of God. He has given us his will and related it in so many ways in the bible that he is showing us what his will is. When you accept his will as written with understanding, then you are obedient to his will. By faith accept what he revealed to us in his word and then you will fulfill the obedience he is looking for.

hismessenger

 

[Girder of Loins]

Well, brother, firstly..

The negatives in life are sin. When you think negative, that is the devil, who is always insearch of new victims. The positives of life are God. God is everything and plays vital roals in each and every one of our lives.

I'll agree with you there, just make sure you don't forget the negatives. Spend too little time thinking about(not on) the negatives, and you will find yourself ensnared in one.

And by know, I mean they lost ability to know that God would provide for them. So because people didn't know this, they began to think. Thinking is what limits us. That is what separates us from God. When you try to use science in the world to disprove what God is, we are choosing our human-made, mistake-prone ideas over simply knowing that God is everything because God is God.

I don't want to get off topic, so I'll go start a topic somewhere. Then let us resume this argument. I'll post the link in a few!

 

[Hismessenger]

What is sin? A contrary action against God's will.

Can only be accomplished with free will.

Otherwise, one could make a strong case God is the author/creator of sin.

This is why Calvinism fails and is a very weak theology.

How can there be a contrary action against the will of the very one who holds all creation in his hands. You could not take a breath, if God didn't provide it, nor have any thought which came from the mind which he gives us to use. God is the fabric of the whole creation. There is nothing which can exist apart from his divine will that sustains it.

hismessenger

 

[Girder of Loins]

How can there be a contrary action against the will of the very one who holds all creation in his hands. You could not take a breath, if God didn't provide it, nor have any thought which came from the mind which he gives us to use. God is the fabric of the whole creation. There is nothing which can exist apart from his divine will that sustains it.

hismessenger

I think you are confused on what Creation was. God does not sustain life or creation. He started it, and has the power to end it, that is what is meant by all those verses stating,"God upholds the heavens and the earth" or something like that. The universe needed God to begin, but God could step back and let creation roll along and eventually die out. Of course this isn't so, He has a leading role in this world, but He isn't the only actor on stage.

 

[Hismessenger]

God does not sustain life or creation

Live on a while and one day you will understand.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

Of course this isn't so, He has a leading role in this world, but He isn't the only actor on stage.

Your right he has a leading role in this world but he is not a actor at all. He is the script writer, producer and director over all creation. Not just this little planet called earth.

hismessenger

 

[Girder of Loins]

Live on a while and one day you will understand.

hismessenger

Take all the universal standards we have now. Gravity, momentum, inertia, force, etc... These are the things that bind the universe together. Without God, it doesn't exist. But now that it does exist, it can stand on its own!

Your right he has a leading role in this world but he is not a actor at all. He is the script writer, producer and director over all creation. Not just this little planet called earth.
hismessenger

I agree, He is the writer, He is the producer, and He is the director. But your own analogy proves my own thinking! In any play, movie, or theatrical performance, there exists something called improv. We can go against the script, and still meet the director's wishes and wants. In Genesis 18, the LORD speaks to Abraham about the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah and Abraham pleads to the LORD to spare it. Each time, the LORD agrees that if some faithful men were to be found in each city, they would be spared. This number dwindles down to ten, then Abraham stops. The LORD parts His ways, and destroys Sodom and Gomorrah because He couldn't find any. If Abraham had asked the LORD not to destroy it, wouldn't it had been so? Even so, the fact that the LORD allowed Abraham to talk Him down proves my point. Does not Jesus say that God's will is for every man to become saved? If so, and that was the director's will, why is it not so? Why then does Jesus immediately say that not all will be saved? Can God go against His own will? Wouldn't this make Him a contradiction?

 

[Hismessenger]

Your post proves not what you think but what I said because God already knew that there would be no rigtheous in those cities and the lesson for us to learn is that Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.Either you submit to his authority and will or you are walking in the rebellion of the flesh.

hismessenger

 

[Girder of Loins]

Your post proves not what you think but what I said because God already knew that there would be no rigtheous in those cities and the lesson for us to learn is that Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.Either you submit to his authority and will or you are walking in the rebellion of the flesh.

hismessenger

Once again going and proving my point. I do submit to Jesus and His will. But that implies I have the ability to not follow His will. If every man were chosen by God to be saved, no matter what he did, he would be in the right with God. If God has complete dominion over the world, anything anyone does is in accordance to His will. A small boy raped is in God's plan. I pray you will find the heresy in this.

 

[Hismessenger]

There is no free will. There are only choices which we make from those things given to us to choose from. God is the only one who has free will and he makes it very clear when he says ,

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Who is there who can stay his hand. With us it is totally opposite for if we choose that which is not in God's purpose, he can and does alter our ways. Don't believe it? Then look at the story of Jonah. If we have free will then Jonahs choice to run would have stood but it didn't. He choose, God, exercised his sovereign will to bring about what he had spoken to happen and Jonah had to follow God's will not the choice he made. There is no free will. Either we are under the nature of sin, or we are under the nature of God. Where is free will in that.

hismessenger http://www.christianforums.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=60183110

 

[Girder of Loins]

There is no free will. There are only choices which we make from those things given to us to choose from. God is the only one who has free will and he makes it very clear when he says ,

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Who is there who can stay his hand. With us it is totally opposite for if we choose that which is not in God's purpose, he can and does alter our ways. Don't believe it? Then look at the story of Jonah. If we have free will then Jonahs choice to run would have stood but it didn't. He choose, God, exercised his sovereign will to bring about what he had spoken to happen and Jonah had to follow God's will not the choice he made. There is no free will. Either we are under the nature of sin, or we are under the nature of God. Where is free will in that.

hismessenger

With that post, I completely agree with you. I do think God can influence mankind to His plan. Yes, there are "Acts of God" which are outside of our control. There is free will, but it is limited by our mortality and by God's prophecy. That is why we have prophets in the Church. that is why men will dream dreams and the young shall see visions. It is to encourage people to follow God's plan for their life. Of course, not everyone will(as shown when Christ said that His Father's will is for all to be saved, but not everyone will). Sure, there are times when the two meet(due to God's influence on Creation). However, the point I was trying to make is that people have influence in this world too, that is why there is sin. If it were either sin or God, no one would follow God, as sin never lets go until we let go of it. I think we have been battling over semantics. All well. Go in peace, brother!

 

[Jpark]

God did not create sin. God provoked (move a person to action or feeling or to summon something into being by so moving a person) sin.

James 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

1 John 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

*

James 4:2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder.

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning...

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James 4:2 You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,



James 4:1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?

 

[Spaceman 3]

There have been many arguments on here concerning the origin of sin, and many come from the standpoint that God created sin. I would like to refute that.

First, we must realize the attributes of God. He is loving, merciful, just, righteous, jealous, and moral. All of these attributes, the few I have listed, He is perfect in. God is perfect, and so when the Bible clearly states that God is one of these things, it means He is perfect in them.

So, let me point out one of these attributes, justice. What is justice? According to dictionary.com, justice is: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. This definition denotes punishment. What is punishment? Once again, dictionary.com describes punishment as: a penalty inflicted for an offense, fault, etc.

So, we know God is just. We know justice is a punishment for an offense or wrongdoing. Now, you may see where this is going. God's attribute denotes a wrong side of things. By being just, who He is denotes evil(or a wrong side of things).

So, we know God's character denotes evil. Does this mean he is evil? No, this doesn't. It merely makes His character assume something. You can't have cold without hot. Hotness assumes a coldness.

God did not create evil. Did he create sin? Once again, no. We know God created Lucifer and(debatable) God gave angels free will. Now we know Lucifer cannot create anything. He can only destroy or deceive(manipulation). Lucifer manipulated the assumption of evil into a physical thing: sin.

Therefore, God did not create evil. His character assumed evil, which became sin through Lucifer's manipulation.

OK, so God created us with free will. I wanna try & dissect the thinking behind this, if you'll allow me.

Firstly, the very presence of evil - where does that come from? The presence of evil offers the possibility of choice. If evil did not exist, there would be no choice.

Surely Adam & Eve had free will before they sinned. They were pefectly happy. Animals know not of sin, yet they are free to do as they please, they're not slaves, well, only to the biological demands that we too are slaves to, like eating, drinking, sleeping etc... this suggests that they already had free will.

By His omniscience God knew exactly what they would do with it when He offered them the chance to explore evil by bringing their attention to the tree of the KoGaE.

I, personally & indeed you - were not born with that choice. Apparently sin is a disease that infects us all because of Adam. We're already in the bin!

Evil is present in this realm only because it exists. It was there for for Lucifer to apprehend, then it was passed from him, onto mankind.

What you're effectively saying is that God wants us to have free will, but if we choose not to accept His will & do as we're told, then we will spend an eternity in torment. That's not really free will in the true spirit of things now, is it?

The point is - why offer us the choice if that is the outcome? We clearly don't know what's good for us, so don't offer it to us - better still don't create it, or destroy it before it has the chance to infect us.

Seriously man, if God is omnipotent & omniscient, then surely this whole mess could easily have been avoided?

 

[holyrokker]

Seriously man, if God is omnipotent & omniscient, then surely this whole mess could easily have been avoided?

It all hinges on your definitin of "omnipotent" and "omniscient".

The Bible seems to indicate that God did NOT know with certainty what the outcome would be.

This is an idea that has been attributed to God, not from a biblical perspective, but from a philosophical perspective.

 

[Hismessenger]

God has ordained the creation from the beginning and not one dot or tittle shall fail for the word of God cannot come back void. Not matter the choice made, ultimately it must align with the word and will of God. What is missed by man is the fact that he is the one who ordered the creation from beginning to end. Why, because of mankind, or for His Glory. That is what is truly missed. It is all for His Glory and those of us who submit to his will by faith will receive that glory.

hismessenger

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Creation was not Perfection. This is the simple answer for why sin came to the world.

Man had to eat of the tree of knowledge to be like God.
Man had to be tempted to eat of the tree.
God does not tempt.
God made Satan weaker knowing he would revolt against him.
Satan is a necessary spirit to bring about God's plan for us.
Jesus came to redeem us from our fall.
A new world will be created for the elect with no sun, evil, Satan, temptation or death.

God did not create sin, but he created a weak angel that tempted us weak humans so that we may learn of good and evil.

Compare the description of creation verses the next age and you will realize how much more glorious it will be in the next age. This is God's plan for us since the beginning, to put us on a journey towards a greater and more glorious being. That will be PERFECTION.