God Created Evil

[PastorKeith]

I read another account in the Old testament writings implying God held council with angels and demons. Since none of the writers were born again, some misconceptions about God are inevitable. Even Paul admitted to be seeing God as through a dirty window.

Are you implying the Writers of the scriptures, inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, were in error???

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Are you implying the Writers of the scriptures, inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, were in error???

The writers of scripture were sinners and used an allegory for God to speak to them through it. However, over time allegories break down or do not transfer well from language to language or culture to culture.

In reading the scriptures and viewing "who God is" that we must also remember the teachings of Saint James to Judge with Mercy, so that we are judged with mercy by the same measure.

I could choose to re-make God in my own image as a lot of theologians do, and what an evil God that would be.

However, when reading about God, I keep in mind how Jesus said be kind to those who are mean to you so you can be like my Father who is in Heaven.

That statement alone clears up a lot of misunderstandings. God is that kind of God, and the anthropomorphism in the scripture needs to be considered since all of the authors are human.

So the scriptures are useful indeed, for teaching, preaching, correction, and training in righteousness. However, in this task of teaching, correcting, preaching so the man of God can be fully equipped for every good work, one must consider that the authors were indeed human and to judge with mercy .. so we too can be judged with mercy.

 

[Strong in Him]

God had a plan to send Jesus to the cross, before all of creation.

I know.
But you're saying that God created evil - which includes sin.
Why did he create it and then send Jesus to die in agony to save us from it?

God knew that Adam would eat from the tree he was forbidden to eat from. Jesus was chosen to be our Saviour from the beginning.
So God provided a Saviour before we knew that we needed one. That shows his amazing mercy and grace.

You probably don't mean it this way, but your argument sounds as though God said; "Jesus has already been chosen to save the world from sin and evil; now I need to create evil so that there is a reason for Jesus' death. And all this will show my glory."
A perfect, loving heavenly Father chooses to create evil just so that there is something for his Son to save us from? Really?

 

[Strong in Him]

The Bible says it was good.... meaning, His creation. Not that everything in his creation was good. You are reading into the scripture something that isn't there.

No, it was good when he created it.

Sickness, suffering and death came into the world when sin did.
The Bible says that God hates evil.
The Bible says that people sinned and did evil - Genesis 6:5, Exodus 32:22, Deuteronomy 1:35, 1 Samuel 12:19-20, Jeremiah 4:22. Jesus told his disciples to pray "deliver us from evil" and also said, "if you then, though you are evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more ....." Matthew 7:11.

God's creation was good. According to you, God created evil. Why?
To deliberately destroy his perfect creation?
Because he wanted to punish evil people, even though he had made them that way?
Those are not the actions of a perfect, loving heavenly Father.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

As it pertains to the topic matter, God can and does create things that are against Him, on purpose

In fact, if we think about it, every created thing is less than Perfect

God created a perfect devil. Does that make the devil the same Perfect as God? Nope

IF we say God is not in control of everything, that is a far worse slippery slope. A God who ain't so much of a God

The response to this is people will now look at creation, the world around us, and the evil that exists and derive God's nature and will from their darkened perceptions. God is evil. He would have to be. Alas, Jesus came to show us the Father, and He is the exact and perfect revelation of the Father. When did Jesus ever do evil? Scripture says that Jesus went about doing God precisely because God was with Him. So again, where is the evil in what Jesus did? There was none. James detailed the true revelation of God:
James 1:16-17 KJV
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Then, some will redefine what the words "good" and "love" mean. If God is "good" and "Love," but God does evil and hate, then there must be different definitions for these words. They must include what we would consider evil, hate, and bad. And so, if there is a slippery slope, it is one that leads us to a God who is worse than the devil—an all-powerful devil.

Isaiah picks up on the subject in Is 55:
Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Now, some will take these verses and take them to mean that God's ways could include what we might consider evil ways and His thoughts include what we might consider evil thoughts. They reason that God is beyond our comprehension and so we actually cannot reason what He might do in any situation. Yes a causal reading of the verses that follow paint a completely different and opposite picture. This is how God's ways and thoughts differ from ours:

Isaiah 55:10-13 KJV
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

Oddly, it is saying the exact opposite of what is commonly thought. God's higher ways and higher thoughts result in good things, not bad ones! As a doctor of faith, I resolve that this is one of the most destructive concepts in a person's doctrine and teaching.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

However, a God in control of everything in such a world like this leads to God looking like a caricature of a cartoon villian.

If God is in control of everything, then all the evil in the world occurs via God's consent.

I would take that one step further, GT. If God controls everything, then nothing happens without His direct, personal distribution of His own power by His own will, with authentication and orchestration. Terminologies like "allows" and "permits" are not only efforts to avoid the unpleasant truth but also admissions that this truth is the way things must be. Of course, I personally disagree with all such terminology and theology.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I would take that one step further, GT. If God controls everything, then nothing happens without His direct, personal distribution of His own power by His own will, with authentication and orchestration. Terminologies like "allows" and "permits" are not only efforts to avoid the unpleasant truth but also admissions that this truth is the way things must be. Of course, I personally disagree with all such terminology and theology.

Post enlightenment dichotomies are so far off the mark ... so such comparisons are really the only way to explain "why not"

Yeah, the baby God theology, where all stimuli in the universe is an extension of God, even me typing on this keyboard. Part of a series of theologies that makes human beings seem more emotionally mature, more merciful, more Godlike than God Himself .. obviously wrong .. but the theologies still have yet to run their course.

 

[jas3]

Evil exists.
All things that exist were created by God.
God created evil.

Your premise is incorrect, so your conclusion is incorrect.

And He did it (create evil) without being evil or sinning, all the while maintaining his Holiness. How? I do not begin to know, any more than I know how he keeps the sun in its place every day, and the earth on its orbit. I just wake up, and there's the sun. I don't need to know the how.

Does it not give you pause that the only people in church history who interpreted Isaiah 45:7 in the same way as you were the Gnostic heretics, and even they didn't ascribe the creation of evil to the true supreme being? One of the Marcionites' arguments was that the "god of the Old Testament" having created evil necessarily meant that evil was a part of his nature, so he couldn't be the true "god of the New Testament."

What you're defending here is what is normally a caricature of Calvinism, that God created evil and foreordains moral evil and then sends people to hell for that evil.

 

[PastorKeith]

Your premise is incorrect, so your conclusion is incorrect.

Does it not give you pause that the only people in church history who interpreted Isaiah 45:7 in the same way as you were the Gnostic heretics, and even they didn't ascribe the creation of evil to the true supreme being? One of the Marcionites' arguments was that the "god of the Old Testament" having created evil necessarily meant that evil was a part of his nature, so he couldn't be the true "god of the New Testament."

What you're defending here is what is normally a caricature of Calvinism, that God created evil and foreordains moral evil and then sends people to hell for that evil.

Are humans evil?

 

[jas3]

Are humans evil?

To quote St. Dionysius the Areopagite,
"But perhaps someone will say that human souls are the seat of evil. Now if the reason alleged is that they have contact with evil temptations when they take forethought to preserve themselves therefrom, this is not evil but good and cometh from the Good [God] that turns even evil into good. But if we mean the depravation which souls undergo, in what do they undergo depravation except in the deficiency of good qualities and activities and in the failure and fall therefrom due to their own weakness? Even so we say that the air is darkened around us by a deficiency and absence of light; while yet the light itself is always light and illuminates the darkness. Hence the evil inhereth not in the demons or in us, as evil, but only as a deficiency and lack of the perfection of our proper virtues."

So to answer your question, while we may recognize evil in humans, we recognize it as a deficiency of virtue that ought to be present; it does not mean that evil has existence as anything other than a lack of good, and a lack is not an existent thing.

 

[Aaron112]

Is worshiping demons, following and serving demons, evil ?

 

[Paul4JC]

[Deu 32:3-4 HNV] For I will proclaim the name of the LORD: Ascribe greatness to our God. 4 The Rock, his work is perfect; For all his ways are justice: A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, Just and right is he.

[Isa 45:7 NET] I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.

[Hab 1:13 NIV] Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrongdoing. Why then do you tolerate the treacherous? Why are you silent while the wicked swallow up those more righteous than themselves?

[Pro 8:13 NIV] To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.

[Rom 12:9 NIV] Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

[Gen 50:20 HNV] As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save many people alive.

 

[PastorKeith]

To quote St. Dionysius the Areopagite,
"But perhaps someone will say that human souls are the seat of evil. Now if the reason alleged is that they have contact with evil temptations when they take forethought to preserve themselves therefrom, this is not evil but good and cometh from the Good [God] that turns even evil into good. But if we mean the depravation which souls undergo, in what do they undergo depravation except in the deficiency of good qualities and activities and in the failure and fall therefrom due to their own weakness? Even so we say that the air is darkened around us by a deficiency and absence of light; while yet the light itself is always light and illuminates the darkness. Hence the evil inhereth not in the demons or in us, as evil, but only as a deficiency and lack of the perfection of our proper virtues."

So to answer your question, while we may recognize evil in humans, we recognize it as a deficiency of virtue that ought to be present; it does not mean that evil has existence as anything other than a lack of good, and a lack is not an existent thing.

Is sin evil? Are humans sinners?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The response to this is people will now look at creation, the world around us, and the evil that exists and derive God's nature and will from their darkened perceptions. God is evil. He would have to be.

You would prefer multiple creators then? Is that your final answer? Polytheism? Things other than God created themselves?

Sorry, polytheism won't cut it. The position of scripture is that God created all things, no exceptions

What people fail to realize is that God can create anything and not be the things He created simply because He is in fact far far Greater than the sum of all created things. He's God after all. Shouldn't need excuses or isolation

God, from the mouth of His Own prophets claimed to set evil before mankind, even binding us all to it

When you read Jer 17:9, you'll see that the heart is deceptive above all things. Are we more deceptive than Satan, or because of our binding to our adversary in the flesh? That answer, though it will stick in the craw of most, is obvious.

Mankind is not more deceptive than Satan. Satan is the evil present within us all, the evil conscience. Evil thoughts. Wicked acts.

All have, present tense have sin. Romans 3:9

And sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

I could really care less if anyone is capable of believing it in cases of their "darkened minds" Christians have basically turned to lying hypocrisy on this particular subject. So who's minds were darkened the most?

We have a real adversary and that adversary works on us all internally, through the evil conscience

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Exactly the point. Adam disobedient still held same station as before, as did the snake. God's personality as displayed in the bible indicates, once He gives an authority .. it sticks according to the basis of it.

Once the new heaven and the new earth are revealed, the old heaven and earth will already be thoroughly incinerated .. so by no basis will the old authorities matter at that time.

ZERO people were given authority to make themselves sinless, if that's what you're trying to claim

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I know.
But you're saying that God created evil - which includes sin.
Why did he create it and then send Jesus to die in agony to save us from it?

Paul speaks directly to these kinds of questions many times in many ways

The natural man was born to die. Bound with corruption, weakness, dishonor in a natural bound with the spirit of disobedience state. Our fate was sealed long before we got here.

1 Cor. 15:42-46, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

The principle is "first the natural, then, afterwards, the spiritual."

 

[jas3]

Is sin evil? Are humans sinners?

Are you going to engage with anything I say or are you just going to keep peppering me with questions?

 

[Strong in Him]

The natural man was born to die.

Only since the fall.

Bound with corruption, weakness, dishonor in a natural bound with the spirit of disobedience state.

We were not created with corruption, dishonour and so on. We were made in God's image, and he declared his creation to be very good.

The principle is "first the natural, then, afterwards, the spiritual."

That's not how it happened in Eden. Adam and Eve died spiritually - they were escorted from God's presence, no longer close to him and needed to offer sacrifices to approach him.
They only died physically many years later.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

ZERO people were given authority to make themselves sinless, if that's what you're trying to claim

Broad strokes, missed the barn.

 

[PastorKeith]

Are you going to engage with anything I say or are you just going to keep peppering me with questions?

I am trying to help you see something that you are missing. You should be able to easily say "sin is evil."

If you can bring yourself to this point you are almost home. Now if human sin is evil, where did human sin originate?
A common answer would be the Garden of Eden, and Adam's choice to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.

Dig a little deeper...

God created the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, and placed it in the Garden. God knew Adam would partake, God knew sin (evil) would enter the world and God knew His Son would be sent to the cross. He knew all of this before the first day of creation, and yet He still created things as recorded in the Bible.

So now we are faced with a difficult question:

Why would a loving God make a universe where billions of people would suffer eternal hell fire for finite acts of evil, that He not only allowed, but also provided the only means to do so? (No tree of Knowledge, no sin)

Free will folks will jump at this question, "Because He had to give us free will, because if you have no choices, you are simply a robot, and that is not true love"

Yeah, yeah, we've heard it all before. Here's the problem: There is no free will in eternal heaven. There will be no option or choice to sin in Heaven, so for all eternity, we will be relieved of those choices, and not one free will advocate cries out about the injustice of Heaven.

They will retort.... "It's not that we won't have a choice to sin in Heaven, it's that we won't have the DESIRE to sin in Heaven"

WOW, so he we are, right back at the beginning.... Adam and Eve had many choices in the Garden of Eden, they could do as they pleased as long as they DID NOT partake of the Tree of Knowledge. They had NO desire to do so, until they were tempted. The beginning state is just as the last state (eternity) and people are blind to this obvious truth. Why?


Because they feel the need to defend a Mighty God who needs no defense. He is who He says He is and does what pleases Him for His glory. End of conversation.