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GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

Tzaousios

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What relationship?
Satan has no relationship to God.

How could I have guessed that you would take statement in this way?

Let's try this again, although I will explain what I meant so that you do not have the opportunity to paint what I believe in the manner which you want.

I mean relationship in the sense of how do YOU distinguish the two in terms of abilities and powers? At one point you are beside yourself in your emotion to attack the monsters in the closet and under the bed whom you think are trying to say "God is evil." But then you say things in other places that appear to limit God's omnipotence, omniscience, and sovereignty over all things, including evil.

So, please answer my question:

Tzaousios said:
However, it seems you are refraining from telling us what you think Satan's relationship to God is. Does Satan fall within or without God's omnipotent power and sovereignty over His creation?

Zeena said:
I'm still waiting on the Lord... You?

As far as I am concerned, this is a deflectionary tactic and you continue to drag your feet because you see the dichotomy that arises between the truth of these Scriptures and some of the beliefs to which you cling.
 
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Breckmin

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A simple but true and direct question which can not be sidestepped.

If God were to end the creation in the next instant where would evil be?

Not atoned for. Not paid for. Not rightly punished because of God's
Cosmic Justice.

The history of evil will still exist even if the creation ended.
 
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Breckmin

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You did not answer the question. Simply tried to side step it. Where would evil be if God said enough.

This is sort of useless question... It is sort of asking the question "what
if God never created us to be eternal beings?" (Then we wouldn't be
in His Image, for one.) It is also like asking "What if Jesus was never
born, but God simply annihilated us all?...." The problem I have with this
impracticality is that it stands in contradiction to God's promises and
God's Faithfulness. Such a hypothetical - is an appeal to "possibility"
(meaningless and unlikely possibility) which is a component of over-
analyzing which leads to error(and satan often uses for deception).


He has not given us a spirit of fear so answer the question. He won't be angry at the truth.

Molinism doesn't apply to anyone who is not omniscient. How can we
possibly answer whether or not God can annihilate evil from the historical
record and quote unquote "start over?" There is NOTHING to suggest
that it is even LOGICAL for God to ever do this...let alone be possible
to do. God's Omnipotence applies to what is logical for God to do...
NOT self-contradictory hypotheticals.

God did NOT create sin and disobedience. These are a potential
existence because of "choice." God created "will" so that LOVE could
exist. Our will gives us the ability of "choice." Making a choice to
disagree or disobey God is a "bad choice" and sin/evil/disobedience.

God did NOT create the decisions of those who disobey Him. The word
"create" is an improper use here - as it applies to this type of evil.
 
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sungaunga

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this tread is still alive... Sin / Evil can be traced all the way back to Lucifer. God created Lucifer in PERFECTION. Go read Ezekial 28. God did not create evil. He created a perfect being. Lucifer had a choice. He blew it. Nevertheless, God allowed Evil. Obviously He allowed it, He's omnipotent.
 
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Zeena

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I mean relationship in the sense of how do YOU distinguish the two in terms of abilities and powers?
1 John 5:19 NIV
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

John 19:11 KJV
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Men are created lower than angels, therefore that devil Satan, and his host of wicked angels have held power over men until the death, burial and ressurection of the Lord Jesus the Christ, in which, He despoiled the powers in the heavens (prince of the power of the air) and set up His Throne in Judgment.

Colossians 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Hebrews 10:13
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Hebrews 2:7-9
7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 
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Zeena

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As far as I am concerned, this is a deflectionary tactic and you continue to drag your feet because you see the dichotomy that arises between the truth of these Scriptures and some of the beliefs to which you cling.
Man is a triune creature, a wholistic being.

Yet, there are very real enemies which encamp us in this world.
The flesh, the world and the devil.

Do you deny we have an enemy?

If so, you err.
 
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Hismessenger

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The history of evil will still exist even if the creation ended.

So what you believe is that Evil can be sustained apart from The creation. The problem is by what authority and presence for before the creation, there was only God. The logic of this should be self evident. It requires no deep analyzing to see a pure fact of the nature of the creation. Without God there is no creation nor anything of the creation which can exist apart from His being.

hismessenger
 
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Tzaousios

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Alright, although you have provided just Scripture passages without commentary or critical evaluation, I will infer that you actually do believe that Satan, the fallen angels, and moral and physical evils fall within God's control. Thus, nothing is outside of God's knowledge and ultimate control.


How this reply addresses either my criticism above or the Scripture I posted ages ago, I am not really sure. But thank you for replying nonetheless.

Zeena said:
Man is a triune creature, a wholistic being.

Triune in what sense? Please define your terms and how he is "wholistic" as a result. How does this address my arguments?

Zeena said:
Yet, there are very real enemies which encamp us in this world.
The flesh, the world and the devil.

Yes, I have no problem acknowledging this.

Zeena said:
Do you deny we have an enemy?

If so, you err.

No, as I just said, there is no problem acknowledging this. What led you to believe that I deny that we have an enemy?
 
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Hismessenger

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God did NOT create the decisions of those who disobey Him. The word
"create" is an improper use here - as it applies to this type of evil.

Let me ask you this. In a movie, the script writer has scripted all the choices which the characters will make. Why is it so hard to believe this of God for it is His creation written for His purpose, not ours.

hismessenger
 
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B1inHim

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So basically y'all are saying that because GOD created Lucifer, knowing that he would fall, GOD created evil...???

NOPE!

Good and evil is a choice.
There is a vast difference between living in Gods perfect will and His permissive will.

GOD allows us to choose the path that we take. He does not make us walk that path, He allows us.

Once we choose to walk after the Sspirit of GOD and not the flesh, we get into His perfect will and that path is clearly marked.

Yet, IF we choose to walk after the flesh, we are in His permissive will and that path is not clearly marked.

Lucifer had a choice, as do all of Fathers intelligent creations, he chose to do it his way and the rest is history.
Evil was born and it claimed 1/3rd of the heavenly host.

GOOD and evil are based on the natural laws of cause and effect.
Each choice we make that is good has a beneficial effect.
The same goes for making evil choices; those cause very bad effects.
Just look where it landed Lucifer and what his expected outcome is.
That is called affect.

Now for some these benefits do not come right away. Look at the dope dealers and sinners who live for themselves. They will most likely not see any real adverse effects till this is all over and dung with.

So those who choose “good” over evil and are saved will be able to eventually inherit the kingdom of GOD.

Those who choose evil over good will inherit a permanent place in a lake of fire that is the final separation from GOD.

One Way {good} or our way {evil} is made by choice, period.
Love,
Brother Jerry
 
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Zeena

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Let me ask you this. In a movie, the script writer has scripted all the choices which the characters will make. Why is it so hard to believe this of God for it is His creation written for His purpose, not ours.

hismessenger
Then how come is god angry with that devil, seeing as he has "scripted all the choices"?

Psalm 5:4, “For Thou art not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with Thee.”

James 1:13, "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be
tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."
 
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EveryTongueConfess

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"Does cold exist?
In fact sir, cold does not exist
according to the law of physics
what we consider cold is in reality
the absense of heat
...
Does darkness exist? ...
Darkness does not exist either.
Darkness in reality is the abnsense of Light.
Light we can study, but not darkness...
Evil does not exist...
God did not create Evil.
Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart"

-Albert Einstein
 
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B1inHim

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Albert, it is so nice to see you posting again. LOL

I am not sure whom this is intended for but the wonderful young lady before this post needs to see this also...

GOD did not script our future. That is laid out in His will. His will is that He would not have ANY perish, but that all would come to repentence.

Him being in the no time zone, seeing everything as it will be is way to hard for our finite understanding to fully comprehend.

Joshua 23:14-16 (KJV)
And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. [15] Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you. [16] When ye have transgressed the covenant of the Lord your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Obviously He does not apprecite beings who are created in His own image to rebel against Him.
Deut. 30:19 (KJV)
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Choose -
bachar,
baw-khar'; a primitive root; properly to try, i.e. (by implication) select :- acceptable, appoint, choose (choice), excellent, join, be rather, require.

He didn't set this rule for us alone, this goes for all His creation.

The consiquences are always the same and the cause and effects of evil done by anyone brings about the same judgment. As does doing good in His sight.
Love,
Brother Jerry
 
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Zeena

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First of all, although you will probably say something to the effect that you just posting verses in reply is because they are self-evident, you should really explain how they fit into your argument and the way you are reading them.
God speaks for Himself, He has not left us without a Witness, neither in Scripture, nor in this world via His Son.

I do not presuppose Him to mean anything but what He says, with the facts of His Character in view.

God is good, and for any Scripture to hold true, it must be evaluated in light of the facts of the Character of God, which does not change. Eg;Light, Love, ect..

Jeremiah 9:24
but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he hath understanding, and knoweth me, that I am Jehovah who exerciseth lovingkindness, justice, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith Jehovah.

Yes, obviously Balaam was dabbling in divination and culpable for that sin. But you have missed the reason why I posted the passage.
Then, I'm not the only one.. For I too quoted a passage directly corresponding to this one which states that God was angry with Balaam for his sin, and for no other reason.

2 Peter 2:16
but he was rebuked for his own transgression: a dumb ass spake with man's voice and stayed the madness of the prophet.

You understand that I am quoting this passage in direct opposition to the theory you've espoused as God being the 'first cause' of Balaam's sin?

For why would God rebuke the actions that He Himself caused?
You've yet to answer this question..

Is the Lord God of double mind in your opinon?
Condemning the actions of His 'alter ego'?

First of all, God issues a command to Balaam to get up and follow the men. What does God do next?
God interceeds, He makes Balaam to know that he has sinned in not trusting the word of the Lord, and so Judges, and shows Mercy unto him upon the professed ownership and repentance of the deed which he had though to do.

Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Good, I am pleased to see that you acknowledge that God's sovereignty extends to him having the right to smite his creation and take life.
Now, if you will acknowledge that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, this might actually be tenuable!

He is perfectly able and totally righteous in doing so.
Yes. The Lord does not, CANNOT act against His nature, which is sinless. He cannot act like a sinner, wickedly, because He is not.

Some people who take a lesser view of God's sovereignty would say this is a bad thing and even evil.
Righteous vengeance is never unjust. Spiteful vengeance is unjust.

Lamentations 3:33
For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.

Just because He can, doesn't mean He will.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

No, it does not contradict. I do not know what you mean by "wrested verse," either.
I mean wrested as in taken out of context. For indeed, the context is thus, in my ow words;

God delights to take vengeance upon evildoers for the sake of His Kingdom, not just some arbitrary decision to stomp upon men and shed blood merely becuase He can, as some here have charged in assuming God to be some sort of tyrannt, unjust and thereby unfit to rule and Judge over the affairs of men.

Hebrews 6:10
God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

In saying that God is the first cause of man's sin is equal to saying God is unjust. For no man would punish another for something they could not help! YES, our ways are not God's Way, His way is HIGHER than our ways, the bar set we set for ourselves is nothing in comparrison to the bar that He sets for Himself!

Genesis 18:25
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

So now, if God is the first cause of sin, if He is the One Who has placed it in mans heart to sin, and who can resist His Will, then He is the One culpable for that sin, for the person has no power in respect to God, no man can resist His Will. The end of the matter is that this theological supposition ultimately disavows the doctrine of Free Choice, for a man is only held accountable (by God) to sin if he has a choice NOT to (sin).

Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

In my view, both the actions of God in 1 Samuel 2:6-7 and John 10:10 are perfectly compatible and not contradictory.
Same. But I percieve that the interpretation of these verses each of us holds is wholly contradictory..

For when the Scripture tells us that the Lord both kills and makes alive, I percieve your intrepration (of the killing) to be an arbitrary act of God, and not, rather, according to the purposes of man's heart. As with the giving of life, I also percieve your interpretation to be some arbitrary act on the part of God, rather than according to the heart of men, which only the Lord is privy to.

Tell me, is not a turning from sin and placing our faith in the propitiation of Jesus Christ on our behalf a prerequisite to Eternal Life?

No, God does not cause men to sin to the extent that he is culpable for any sin or wrongdoing. I have already explained my position on this.
So then, what exactly is the extent in which He causes men to sin? In my estimation, you have not explained your position in this regard, but rather, have stated quite the opposite in your assertation that God is the 'first cause' of evil actions.

Is this not what you said?
Am I mistaken?

Please clarify.

As for you, however, the verses from Ecclesiastes and Psalms seem to be giving you trouble, for you have just copied the same tired tropes as your reply.
Tired tropes as you may construde Scripture to be, but with me it is new every morning

You understand this reply has thus far taken me two days [a thoughtful estimate of the total time] to complete? That's not including the two faithfully set out posts written before hand which the forums ate! :o

I have a thinker type of personality, and require time to formulate my thoughts. I am sorry you've taken offense.

How do you account for the actions of God in these two passages and make them compatible with the position you have taken? The verses from Psalms that you posted do nothing but deflect the problem you are having. Here are my verses once again:

Ecclesiastes 7:13-14
13 Consider the work of God;
For who can make straight what He has made crooked?
Moral bondage is the result of being accustomed to doing evil, not one's birth.

Do you honestly believe that God makes junk?

Psalm 105:25
25 He turned their heart to hate His people,
To deal craftily with His servants.
Who is 'their'?
Is is not the Jews?
And is it not the Prophets, His servants that they are hateful of?
Are they not hateful because their deeds are wicked and the Prophets are testifying against them?

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

John 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

THEREFORE is Scripture true, for the moral laws of God testifiy that their deeds are evil, therefore is their heart turned! It's the moral law of reaping and sewing in action [Galatians 6:7]! The one God set in place.

IOW If you continue in sin, your heart will be hardened where you will find no more place for repentance. And God is Just to leave you there, if He should so chose. [Hebrews 12:17]

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Explain how this passage has anything to do with the one I posted from Psalms 105:24-25. As far as I am concerned, it appears to be more deflection on your part.
The Jews are cast off now, because their deeds are and were evil. But all Israel will be saved.

Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Once again, I fail to see what you are trying to prove to me by posting this succession of passages without any commentary or explanation.
I do not like to comment on sacred Scripture, as I'd much rather just shut my mouth and let God do the talking Himself. Especially in light of this sectarian society which infringes on the rights of women to teach and have authority over those whom God places in their trust. So, in order not to offend, I often take this approach as my safest bet in order to minister in the Holy Spirit.

I speak of nothing that has not already been revealed (in the body of Scripture, by the Witness of the Holy Spirit), so, it's fine with me to continue to quote verse in response to assertations and questions.

And, I'll tell you right now, I don't know everything..
I used to think I did, because that's what was written in Scripture (ye know all things..), but the Lord knocked me off that horse a long time ago.. A wrested verse (on my part), to be sure..

Which is why I am so fearful of teaching error, for I can be deceived.
Which is why i take things slow, and contemplate, reason and pray with the Lord over all things.

Both the one I posted and the ones you put forth here are totally compatible in my view.
They are compatable in my view as well, in fact, all Scripture is compatable to the degree that it is inspired by God and penned by holy men submitted to the Holy Spirit.

There are no contradictions or incongruities.
Actually, there are contradictions, many if fact. But tell me, do you require me to go over each one? Or can you not allow me to form my own opinions?

However, you have failed to explain how the actions of God in Isaiah 6:9-10 are compatible with the position you have taken.
Is the context now irrelevant?

WHO is 'this people'?
Is it not the Jews who refused to believe in Jesus as their Messiah?
Is He not the stone of offense and rcok of stumbling spoken of in verse?
Do these verses now pertain to the world, or only the people whom God foreknew?

How so? Merely saying that they contradict does not prove anything. Once again, you are failing to engage my argument and to articulate your own position in relation to the verses I have posted.
I's sorry you feel that my contemplation, reasoning and prayer with the Lord gets in the way of my engaging your arguement.

In the one hand, you have God arbitrarily blinding men to the Light of Christ. In the other, you have Christ Jesus come to give Life to the world.

Therefore, the context is most definately relation only to the Jews who refused Christ as their Saviour.

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

You can accuse me all you like, I'm perfectly dead, thank you for reminder

As for your question as to how this accounts for the actions of God I answer, what actions of God?

2 Corinthians 4:4
in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.

God did not 'do' it, He merely 'allowed' it, until the full number of the Gentiles came in.
 
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Zeena

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No. Where did I say that he is "multiple spirits"?
Was it not implicately implied that God is the 'first cause' of sinful actions? And, if so, then how can the 'spirit' of Jezebel be anything other than the Spirit of the Lord?

No. Where did I say that the Lord is "the same spirit as Jezebel"?
You are effectively implying that the Lord is the cause of all the ails and wickedness in this world. That's quite an accusation against the character of a Holy God!

I do not see how these passages disprove anything that has to do with my position. Nor do they help answer how you are able to deal with Isaiah 19:14 in the context of the position which you have maintained.
The passages themselves do not, but the interpretation we each hold is definately a conflict.

Do you suppose God to be of double mind?
One minute desiring to save all mankind and the next to be their demise?

I'm sorry you find my speach difficult.

The actions of God in these passages are compatable with His Justice AND His Mercy, in that men were given ample opportunity to repent, and did not. Thus, they suffer the consequence of their sin, eg;rejection of God.
 
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Tzaousios

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God is good, and for any Scripture to hold true, it must be evaluated in light of the facts of the Character of God, which does not change. Eg;Light, Love, ect..

I absolutely agree. But God also is just, righteous, and holy, attributes which Scripture clearly reveals. Your verse from Jeremiah says as much.

Zeena said:
Then, I'm not the only one.. For I too quoted a passage directly corresponding to this one which states that God was angry with Balaam for his sin, and for no other reason.

Yes, overall God was displeased with Balaam for his sin. At that specific moment in the passage I posted, however, it is clear that God commands and punishes according to his sovereign plan. He is not obligated to reveal parts or any of his plan to man.

Zeena said:
2 Peter 2:16
but he was rebuked for his own transgression: a dumb ass spake with man's voice and stayed the madness of the prophet.

I am a big fan of this verse, actually. God did punish Balaam for his transgression, to be sure.

Zeena said:
You understand that I am quoting this passage in direct opposition to the theory you've espoused as God being the 'first cause' of Balaam's sin?

For why would God rebuke the actions that He Himself caused?
You've yet to answer this question..

Yes, I understand why you posted the verse. Nevertheless, it is not how I have come to understand the verse(s). The specific passage in Numbers, as I said before, illustrates God's express rights as potter over the clay. He can command and punish according to his sovereign plan whether the object knows or understands. It is not an arbitrary process because God knows and carries out his plan. What appears as a contradiction or paradox to us makes perfect sense in light of God's omniscience and plan.

Zeena said:
Is the Lord God of double mind in your opinon?
Condemning the actions of His 'alter ego'?

No. Why would he be?

Zeena said:
Now, if you will acknowledge that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, this might actually be tenuable!

Actually, no, he does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Scripture says this. But he also does not let sin and unrighteousness go unpunished. The death of the wicked and the justice in punishing their transgression are mutually exclusive when it comes to the attributes of God.


Indeed. As I explained above, neither his punishment nor the workings of his sovereign plan are parts of an arbitrary process. It is quite the opposite. Just because man is not clued into every detail of the plan or the reasons for punishment does not mean it is arbitrary.


You just contradicted yourself here. You said that if God is the first cause of man's sin he is unjust. Then you said that no MAN would punish another for something they could not help and our ways are not God's ways.

This is precisely what I am saying, God's right to command and punish if it is part of his plan is neither unjust or arbitrary. His justice does not operate on the same plane or by the same procedure as in earthly courts. Human judges are not omnipotent, omniscient, nor sovereign over creation.

Zeena said:
So now, if God is the first cause of sin, if He is the One Who has placed it in mans heart to sin, and who can resist His Will, then He is the One culpable for that sin, for the person has no power in respect to God, no man can resist His Will.

Well, I am not so sure about "placing it in man's heart to sin." However, being sovereign over creation and the lord of history, God has orchestrated events and man acts within in them in the way in which is consonant with his nature. The unregenerate choose to act in ways which are sinful; the regenerate choose to act under grace or according to the sinful nature which resides in the flesh. Thus, man is culpable for his sin.

Zeena said:
The end of the matter is that this theological supposition ultimately disavows the doctrine of Free Choice, for a man is only held accountable (by God) to sin if he has a choice NOT to (sin).

Where is this "doctrine of Free Choice" found? I am unaware of any Biblical support for such a doctrine. Please define it in detail and tell me where it can be found in Scripture.

Zeena said:
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Are there any more besides this that support the doctrine you described above? In brief, I would say that this verse does not support a doctrine of "free choice" when examined in context.


No, it is not arbitrary, and neither is it done "according to the purposes of man's heart" as if God was unaware of the sin before it it was committed or did not have ultimate control of the outcome and waits to act based upon man's actions.

Zeena said:
Tell me, is not a turning from sin and placing our faith in the propitiation of Jesus Christ on our behalf a prerequisite to Eternal Life?

Indeed, it is. But neither this nor ultimate repentence is done solely by the will of man apart from God.
 
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Zeena

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Tzaousios said:
You just contradicted yourself here. You said that if God is the first cause of man's sin he is unjust. Then you said that no MAN would punish another for something they could not help and our ways are not God's ways.
I meant to say would not.

I will fix the error.

---

Umm, actually, it doesn't say that at all..

Zeena said:
For no man would punish another for something they could not help!

I don't see the contradiction, please elaborate.

As I see it, God has set His Moral Law within the hearts of men.
God has set this in our heart, it is OF him.
But HIS Way is higher, ergo more morally responsable than ours.
 
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So then, what exactly is the extent in which He causes men to sin? In my estimation, you have not explained your position in this regard, but rather, have stated quite the opposite in your assertation that God is the 'first cause' of evil actions.

I have explained more of my position above in part 1 of my reply.


Well, I am sorry then. Thank you for taking so much time and effort in the post. It is much appreciated.

Zeena said:
Moral bondage is the result of being accustomed to doing evil, not one's birth.

Do you honestly believe that God makes junk?

How so? God does not make junk, but neither are the indelible effects of Adam and Eve's choice erased merely by being born. This is not because of some inability of God either. There was a punishment for mankind and there is also redemption.

Zeena said:
Who is 'their'?
Is is not the Jews?
And is it not the Prophets, His servants that they are hateful of?
Are they not hateful because their deeds are wicked and the Prophets are testifying against them?

Yes, they are hateful because God condemns them through the words of the prophets. Nevertheless, it is as clear as day that God is in control and caused their hearts to turn.


Yes, I would agree with your conclusions here for the most part. God's actions are according to his nature as is man's according to his. The key, however is grace and the manner in which it is dispensed.


I admire your approach. Also, we should ask for the aid of the Holy Spirit and he will assist. There are still right and wrong interpretations and we must try to find the right one on this side of eternity.

Zeena said:
Actually, there are contradictions, many if fact. But tell me, do you require me to go over each one? Or can you not allow me to form my own opinions?

By all means, have your own opinions! Also, may I have both my own opinions on the Scripture as well as what you say about Scripture?


No, the context is never irrelavent in the work of careful exegesis. Indeed, the Jews and all unbelievers in the Christ have been blinded and deafened. However, that does not mean that the blinding and deafining happened just as a result of their sin apart from God's sovereign plan and ultimate control.


No, it is NOT arbitrary! I explained this in part 1 of my reply above. As for the context, yes, that is correct in that particular instance. However, there are gentile unbelievers and God is sovereign and carries out his will whether it is prescriptive or secret. Romans 9 is very important for this understanding.

Zeena said:
You can accuse me all you like, I'm perfectly dead, thank you for reminder

What? Are you saying that you did not accuse me through ad hominems? You made comments about who you think I am as a person rather than the arguments I put forth in my posts.

Zeena said:
God did not 'do' it, He merely 'allowed' it, until the full number of the Gentiles came in.

So God merely "allowed" Satan to do it, neither knowing beforehand that he would or keeping ahold of the chains with which the god of the world is bound?
 
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