GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Zeena]

Yes, I understand why you posted the verse.

No, you did not understand why i posted that verse.

If you had, you would have acknowledged that, what I was implying, is that the verse is speaking SOLELY of the rejection of the Jewish Nation.

Nevertheless, it is not how I have come to understand the verse(s). The specific passage in Numbers, as I said before, illustrates God's express rights as potter over the clay. He can command and punish according to his sovereign plan whether the object knows or understands. It is not an arbitrary process because God knows and carries out his plan. What appears as a contradiction or paradox to us makes perfect sense in light of God's omniscience and plan.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to [ripe for, Amplified] destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Jews and Gentiles had been formed out of the same lump of clay. Jews were the descendants of Noah through his son Shem. The Gentiles were Noah's descendants from Japheth and Ham. God's original purpose was always to have one family, or one lump. God had chosen Abraham, Issac, and Jacob to places of greater honor (as leaders of the nation), and Ishmael and Esau lesser honor. Moses was a vessel of honor, but Pharaoh dishonor. God providentially used them all to bring about his plan to have one "vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the Master's use, and prepared unto every good work," formed from all the nations of the earth.

Paul must have had in mind Jeremiah's illustration of the potter when he used the parable of the potter and the clay: "The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing. Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken? Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will show them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity." (Jer 18-1-17)

God had not originally made the nation of Israel for the purpose of destroying her. No potter will take pains to make a vessel merely to show he has power to dash it to pieces. God does not engage himself in vanity. But Israel through obstinance had become marred in his hands, so now the nation had become a vessel of wrath fit or ripe for destruction. Israel was no longer fit to be considered as God's family. Especially, since God had found a people, the Gentiles, who were more responsive to his grace. But, alas, as Jeremiah prophesied, God would scatter the Jews among the nations. Their day of calamity was upon them, as Titus was about to move against Jerusalem and utterly destroy their polity.
God in his goodness was still calling Israel to repentance through Paul, even as he did through Jeremiah; but as a nation the people were saying, "There is no hope." Yet there was a remnant of Jews, who recognized that Jesus Christ was the "Hope of Israel" and they were responding to the Gospel.

Before God had ever called Abraham, he had planned to have vessels of mercy made up of all peoples, Jews and Gentiles, upon whom he might make known the riches of his glory. God providentially moved in history to have a people molded in his image after his character; for the essence of God's glory is his good character, which he longs to reproduce in his children.

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee , I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [Hosea 2:23, 1 Pet 2:10] 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they [the Gentiles] be called the children of the living God. [Hosea 1:10]

Paul, as his practice was, when addressing Jews, appealed to the prophets to support his doctrine, that the calling of the Gentiles was not incidental, but a firm purpose in the LORD'S mind. The Jews were fighting against God and renouncing their prophets by opposing the call of the Gentiles.

Source --> The Mystery of Christ Revealed, The Key to Predestination; by George E. (Jed) Smock

 

[Tzaousios]

Umm, actually, it doesn't say that at all..


Originally Posted by Zeena

For no man would punish another for something they could not help!
​

I don't see the contradiction, please elaborate.

As I see it, God has set His Moral Law within the hearts of men.
God has set this in our heart, it is OF him.
But HIS Way is higher, ergo more morally responsable than ours.

It seemed that you were saying both that God has his higher ways and that those ways of justice should be similar to the way man's system of justice operates for it to be acceptable. Please forgive me if I misunderstood.

 

[Zeena]

Well, I am sorry then. Thank you for taking so much time and effort in the post. It is much appreciated.

Thank you for acknowledging my effort, even as I now acknowledge yours. I do not suppose you to be posting on a whim, nor do I suppose you to be posting half-heartedly. Though, I do wonder how you are able to reply so quickly!

As I understand it, it becomes second nature for man to do what he does through repetition.

For me, I am new to expressing my thoughts and reflections on this, as well as many other theological subjects, therefore it takes time for me to search out the words that hold the correct meaning for what I am trying to convey.

James 1:19-20
Ye know this, my beloved brethren. But let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

How so? God does not make junk, but neither are the indelible effects of Adam and Eve's choice erased merely by being born. This is not because of some inability of God either. There was a punishment for mankind and there is also redemption.

I have been reading quite a few of your posts via these forums, and have not failed to notice that you are a proponent of the theory of original sin. Suffice to say, that I am not?

That is what i mean when I imply that God doesn't make junk..
No man is born a sinner, just as Lucifer was not born a devil.

We make our own bed, and we must lie in it.

ARE MEN BORN SINNERS? THE MYTH OF ORIGINAL SIN: TABLE OF CONTENTS

Yes, they are hateful because God condemns them through the words of the prophets. Nevertheless, it is as clear as day that God is in control and caused their hearts to turn.

No, it is not 'clear as day.' Please show me, through the Scripture, how this is 'clear as day', if you will?

Yes, I would agree with your conclusions here for the most part. God's actions are according to his nature as is man's according to his. The key, however is grace and the manner in which it is dispensed.

The 'manner' in which grace is dispensed is by the faith of Jesus Christ. HIM, Living in and through us is the Grace of God through the faith that we place in Him to do so.

Romans 4:16
For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

I admire your approach. Also, we should ask for the aid of the Holy Spirit and he will assist.

I never leave home without Him!

Or, rather, I never leave home! hahaha!

There are still right and wrong interpretations and we must try to find the right one on this side of eternity.

I could, in the Spirit of my God, honestly care less and less about 'interpretations', what matters is faith, expressing itself in Love.

This is my calling, my true purpose, Glorfying God in my body, which is His.

Little else matters..

Except.. except.. I so admire my Father and wish not that people would blaspheme His Holy Name!

So, I stick my nose in where it doesn't belong and get caught up in the affairs of this life

God will make His Name known, with or without me, in fact, without me, to be sure.

You see now another reason I'd rather not post in haste..

By all means, have your own opinions! Also, may I have both my own opinions on the Scripture as well as what you say about Scripture?

Yes, of course you may.

Only, be prepared for a faithful [if slow, in coming] rebuttal.

No, the context is never irrelavent in the work of careful exegesis.

Good, I'm glad we can find a subject of agreement.

Indeed, the Jews and all unbelievers in the Christ have been blinded and deafened.

Not as Israel has, whch Paul expressly states in the Scripture quoted.

"a hardness in part..until the full number of the Gentiles comes in.."

However, that does not mean that the blinding and deafining happened just as a result of their sin apart from God's sovereign plan and ultimate control.

I see nothing of the sort, please point out your referrance.

No, it is NOT arbitrary! I explained this in part 1 of my reply above.

From what I see, you have actually put forth two stances;
The first being that God punishes the sinner for their own sin.
The second being His arbitrary will, in that He choses to predestine some, while ignoring others?

Am I correct?

If not, please elaborate, for I'm obviously at a loss at to what you are trying to convey? And if so, which is it?

As for the context, yes, that is correct in that particular instance. However, there are gentile unbelievers and God is sovereign and carries out his will whether it is prescriptive or secret. Romans 9 is very important for this understanding.

And I will now direct you to Romans 11 for the continuation of this very subject.

What? Are you saying that you did not accuse me through ad hominems? You made comments about who you think I am as a person rather than the arguments I put forth in my posts.

I'm saying that I could say the very same of myself, or any one of us who's mind is set on the flesh.

The 'you' there is a broad stroke.
I was never meant to imply 'you' specifically, but 'us' collectively.

So God merely "allowed" Satan to do it, neither knowing beforehand that he would or keeping ahold of the chains with which the god of the world is bound?

The 'god of this world' is not bound, 'cept by the Life & Word of Christ Jesus.

He [Satan] has free reign over all who reject Jesus.

Which is why I posted verse to this effect earlier.

Hebrews 2:2-9
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Do you see Jesus reigning as King over all the earth right now?
We do not, as the Lord has tesified, but we will, mark his Word!

It seemed that you were saying both that God has his higher ways and that those ways of justice should be similar to the way man's system of justice operates for it to be acceptable. Please forgive me if I misunderstood.

No, that is exactly what I'm saying. Though, flip it around so that God is the 'first cause' of us having morals, rather than Him being subject to our 'morality' and there you have it! haha

And to THINK, I was even able to use 'first cause' in a good sense! woot!

Did not Jesus 'raise the bar' in response to the legalism of the Pharasee's?
THIS is the 'higher' spoken of, imo.

For it is the very same Moral Law of God that is placed upon the heart of man [regenerate of not], even as He has declared;

Ecclesiastes 3:10-12
I have seen the travail which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised therewith. He hath made everything beautiful in its time: also he hath set eternity in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end. I know that there is nothing better for them, than to rejoice, and to do good so long as they live.

Romans 2:14-15
(for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);

Romans 1:18-32
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due. And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

 

[EveryTongueConfess]

Again i say
Evil was always there, it was always an option
God did not create good or evil
good is when you follow God
and evil is when you reject God

both have potential always as God IS
since God was omnipresent so was evil in theory

God did not create evil it is like darkness and cold
they exist because their opposite exists

 

[Hismessenger]

Then how come is god angry with that devil, seeing as he has "scripted all the choices"?

God is not angry with any of His creation for He knows the purposes that He created each and everything for. In essence what your asking is why does he still find fault which Paul answered in the scriptures if you want to look it up. It is there and the answer is based in Faith.

hismessenger

 

[Zeena]

God is not angry with any of His creation for He knows the purposes that He created each and everything for.

Isaiah 59:18
According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Nahum 1:2
God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

Nahum 1:8
But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

Deuteronomy 32:40-42
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Hebrews 10:12-13
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Psalm 109:3-5
They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause. For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer. And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Isaiah 63:3
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Revelation 14:20
And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Joel 3:13
Put ye in the sickle; for the harvest is ripe: come, tread ye; for the winepress is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Revelation 22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

In essence what your asking is why does he still find fault which Paul answered in the scriptures if you want to look it up. It is there and the answer is based in Faith.

hismessenger

Job 32:2
Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

When Calvinists are questioned concerning the reasonableness of their alleged divine decrees, that God arbitrarily saves a minority and damns the majority of men before their birth, they will eventually quote Roman 9:20 to silence their opponent. But opponents to Calvinism should not be intimidated by such a harsh reply. Remember, Paul was not addressing the issue of personal salvation, or whether or not man has the ability of contrary choice. He was anticipating a Jewish argument that God should not find fault with them, because everything was unfolding according to God's plan and purpose despite the failure of Israel to do God's will in being a light to the Gentiles.

Paul gave a severe retort to this Jewish gainsayer, because he did not have an honest question. The Holy Spirit is ever ready to provide answers to sincere questions and even objections. But this hypocrite did not deserve a reply to such an absurd notion that God's will was irresistible. Actually in verse 31 of this chapter and in Romans 10, Paul does explain why God found fault with the Jews. But this was not the place to get off his point, especially since the one questioning Paul had an attitude to blame God and justify the Jewish people in their rebellion.

This temperament was typical of the Jews thoughout their history. Generations before while Israel was in Babylonian captivity and it seemed that God had forsaken his people, God answered a critic who accused him of injustice, "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." (Ezek 18:23-24)

" Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?" The hypocritical and caviling Jew objected to Ezekiel's claim that all the alleged righteousness of Israel's past would not be regarded by God.

"When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

"Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?" (Ezek 18:25-29) Again the Jew had the audacity to question the fairness of God in his dealings with Israel.

But Ezekiel continued, "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." (Ezek 18:30-32)

Who was Israel, considering its track record, to ever question God's wise choices and decisions? Who was Israel to question God's wisdom in receiving Gentiles and seemingly casting off the Jews?

Since it was Paul's practice to go to the Jew first, they could have repented at any time had they have searched the Scriptures diligently to confirm Paul's teaching, but instead they quibbled with Paul, rejecting the truth.

Source --> The Mystery of Christ Revealed, The Key to Predestination; by George E. (Jed) Smock

 

[Zeena]

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Paul anticipated another false and frivolous objection coming from the Jews: "Why should God blame us if everything is happening according to God's will?" But certainly Paul was not denying that the Jews were responsible and accountable beings, or that God's will is irresistible.

The Jews worshipped the true God, but rarely in their history did they worship him in spirit and truth. They did not love him; in their selfish works they denied him and caused his name to be blasphemed among the Gentiles. So, God hardened their heart by withdrawing his spirit and bringing judgments which tended to make them more obdurate and rebellious. Yet they still claimed to be God's people. Thus any Jewish hypocrite might ask, "Why does he find fault? Our rebellion is according to God's will."

At the close of Paul's life when he was under house arrest in Rome some of the Jewish leaders came to visit him where he was "lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. {24} And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. {25} And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, {26} Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: {27} For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. {28} Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. {29} And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. (Act 28:23-29)

Some have falsely interpreted Isaiah's words, which Paul quoted to mean that God did not intend the Jews to hear or understand. One might get that understanding if one took Isaiah's original words at face value and out of the context of general Biblical teaching. Paul did not exactly quote the words of the old prophet, "Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed (Isaiah 1:10)

One might think that God did not want the Jews to have a conversion of the heart. But we know that God is not willing that any should perish. So that cannot be Isaiah's true meaning. Paul clarified Isaiah's words by explaining that the problem was that the Jews did not want to believe, because it would have required them to give up their religion and humble themselves. They were intentionally stubborn, refused to listen and shut their own eyes (understanding) to truth. Plainly their problem was an unwillingness to believe, not lack of evidence for the truths Paul proclaimed. Some simply chose to believe and others chose not to believe.

No wonder Paul was determined to go to the Gentiles, who would listen. No wonder God was rejecting the Jews as his special people. They had rejected him!

Source --> The Mystery of Christ Revealed, The Key to Predestination; by George E. (Jed) Smock

 

[Hismessenger]

[/But this hypocrite did not deserve a reply to such an absurd notion that God's will was irresistibleQUOTE]

Was He really?

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"[/QUOTE]

If you believe the statement made above that God's will is resisitible then you need to search further in the scriptures for yourself. I'm talking about the opening quote of this post. Here are a few others which show that God is truly in Control

Exd 9:16 But indeed for this [purpose] I have raised you up, that I may show My power [in] you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.

This one pertains to the most famous of them who tried to resist His will
Pharaoh.

Psa 75:7 But God [is] the Judge: He puts down one, And exalts another.

Has he not spoken and has His word come to pass as He spoke it? Did our choices change anything which He has said will be?

Then go read the last chapters of Job and ask yourself who is this God who holds all creation in His hands. Not just man and the earth but everything which can be seen in the heavens and the oceans . He is not emotional about His creation but operates in perfect love and order. He has ordered all things in the creation.

This is the last that I will post for now;

Pro 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps

I think the word speaks for itself and needs no one to interpret for you if you are seeking the truth. The question is, once the truth is before us, can and will we accept it no matter how much it goes against the grain of our thinking.

hismesenger

 

[EveryTongueConfess]

B1inHim
haha

srry i don't know how to quote (lol -_-)

His will is for us to recieve the most possible blessings and rejoice and have a relationship with him
sorry but i don't think i understand your post...

but w/e
What I was saying is that God did not create Evil, it simply existed as God existed
because Evil is not a "thing" it is doing what God doesn't wish (ie: sin)
since God is omniexistant so is the temptation of Evil
Evil is like cold and darkness ... it exists because its' opposites exist

 

[Zeena]

But this hypocrite did not deserve a reply to such an absurd notion that God's will was irresistible

Was He really?

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

So, you're implying that because God can superimpose His Will upon man that He does?

Does He not rather, limit himself, in regards to us, seeing as we are fragile creatures that He created, with the right to choose for ourselves?

MORAL agents who are accountable to God for their actions?

Or, is there no such thing as morality in your theology?

When The Lord speaks thus;

Deuteronomy 30:10-20
If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Is He mocking us, or is He lieing in saying we have a choice?

For, surely, He does not set forth a commandment we are unable to keep, does He? Does Saint Paul not allude to these very verses as synonymous with faith? The text itself sets forth the the choice this day, in very simple words.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

...

If there is no such thing as free will, then there is also no such thing as moral agency, and Christ died for NOTHING!

Didn't Jesus die for sins?
Well, there are no sins if we're all doing the will of God!

Or, will God now condemn Himself to hell, so that we may be justified in sinning?!?

If you believe the statement made above that God's will is resisitible then you need to search further in the scriptures for yourself. I'm talking about the opening quote of this post. Here are a few others which show that God is truly in Control.

It's not 'control', for then we would truly be construde as puppets, incapable of love, for love is a two way street!

It's a matter of Soverienty, not 'control'.
And God, the Allmighty, is Sovereign. But He does not 'control' man, who is made in His image with the spiritual faculty of conscious.

You have a conscious, don't you?
If so, then why?
WHY do you have a conscious?

Read;

Finney's Systematic Theology--1851 Edition--Lecture LXXVI

This one pertains to the most famous of them who tried to resist His will
Pharaoh.

So then, what was God doing? Arguing with Himself?
Is it just an empty plea for Him to argue with Pharoah, not meaning (good) for his salvation, but that He might be wroth for no good purpose, seeing as Pharoah had no choice in the matter?

That's not Love as I know it!

Why do people perish in the flames?
Is it not for their rejection of Christ, their rejection of God?

Thus Pharoah hardened his own heart in rebellion against the Most High;
He attempted to not only murder Moses from birth (and succeeded in murdering many, many infants!), but in his later years, as well as enslaving all the people of God.

Exodus 1:22
And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

Exodus 2:15
Now when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian: and he sat down by a well.

THEREFORE did the Lord refuse to allow him room for repentance.

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Hebrews 12:17 & 25-26
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Has he not spoken and has His word come to pass as He spoke it?

The Lord MAKES things come to pass, He just doesn't command and "oops" there it is! But even Jesus is shown as the agent through which all things are MADE, in the following verse;

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 14:14
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

When God created man Jesus got down on His hands and knees!
He got His hands dirty forming us of the stuff!

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Or, do you now say dirt is some sort of metaphore for a sinful life?
I tell you straight up, the Life which GOD animates, is NOT sinful!

Did our choices change anything which He has said will be?

Could they?

Exodus 32:13-14
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Jonah 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Was it God's will that Adam sinned?
Was it God's will that Satan leads people to hell?

What is God's will is that NONE SHOULD PERISH, but answer me this, will people perish for their sins or not?

Should you answer no, not all men will be saved. Well then, your thesis is just blown out of the water, for it God's WILL that ALL MEN should come to repentance!

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do men perish, even though it is NOT the Lord's will, even as He says in His Testimony to us?

Seeing as many will perish apart from Christ, how then do you explain the Lord as superimposing His will upon men?

Habakkuk 1:11-14
Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.
Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction. Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he? And makest men as the fishes of the sea, as the creeping things, that have no ruler over them?

Isaiah 59:1-2
Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Then go read the last chapters of Job and ask yourself who is this God who holds all creation in His hands.

IN His hands, NOT in His heart. For wicked and evil men have no part in Him, as I quoted Scripture explicately stating as much earlier.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Not just man and the earth but everything which can be seen in the heavens and the oceans.

They're all in His hands, and will come to answer to Him, alone, on Judgement day.

He is not emotional about His creation but operates in perfect love and order. He has ordered all things in the creation.

Which is why Paul could ferverantly use examples from nature when people were going astray.
But nature and the order of things is not WHY men go astray! Sin is AGAINST our nature!

This is the last that I will post for now;

Oh, but the question begs an answer!

Is Jesus your Life?

Is Jesus the One Who has sinned in and through you?

Or, was it you, walking after your own devices?
[For posterity, the 'you' there is a broad stroke and therefore applies to both you and I and everyone in between]

Do you now accuse Jesus of sinning in and through you?
[You have sinned, havn't you?]

Or, did Jesus die for nothing, because there was no sin to forgive, you acted just as God commanded?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away sins; and in him is no sin.

1 Corinthians 5:5-8
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

I think the word speaks for itself and needs no one to interpret for you if you are seeking the truth. The question is, once the truth is before us, can and will we accept it no matter how much it goes against the grain of our thinking.

hismesenger

I sure hope you are willing.

I was, and the walls came a crumblin' down.
It's painful, to be sure, but worth every stroke of the Masters sword.

 

[Hismessenger]

Job 5:9 Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number:
Job 9:10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
Job 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
Job 11:8 [It is] as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 11:9 The measure thereof [is] longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.
Job 26:14 Lo, these [are] parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?
Job 33:13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
Job 37:19 Teach us what we shall say unto him; [for] we cannot order [our speech] by reason of darkness.
Job 37:23 [Touching] the Almighty, we cannot find him out: [he is] excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.
Psa 36:6 Thy righteousness [is] like the great mountains; thy judgments [are] a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast.
Psa 40:5 Many, O LORD my God, [are] thy wonderful works [which] thou hast done, and thy thoughts [which are] to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: [if] I would declare and speak [of them], they are more than can be numbered.
Psa 77:19 Thy way [is] in the sea, and thy path in the great waters, and thy footsteps are not known.
Psa 92:5 O LORD, how great are thy works! [and] thy thoughts are very deep.
Psa 97:2 Clouds and darkness [are] round about him: righteousness and judgment [are] the habitation of his throne.
Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

All of these verse say basically one thing. We cannot know the depth of God's infinite mind. One thing which I have learned is that I cannot place my understanding nor limit God to what it is that I believe. He is God all by Himself and just as these scriptures say does whatever it is that He has thought to do for His reasons. not our understanding. His ways are above our ways and His thoughts are so far above our thought so why do we try and limit Him to our understanding.

I for one submit to Him in everything. Lean not to my own understanding and understand that if I can see it, He purposed it for His reasons. For He is God and I am His creation.

hismessenger

 

[Zeena]

Amen.

 

[Zeena]

I believe Rick Warren, in his bestselling book entitled "The Purpose Driven Life", put it well when he stated it thus in Chapter 7;

"Everything comes from God alone. Everything lives by his power, and everything is for his glory. - Romans 11:36 (LB)​

The Lord has made everything for his own purposes. - Proverbs 16:4 (NLT)​

It's all for him.

The ultimate goal of the universe is to show the glory of God. It is the reason for everything that exists, including you. God made it all for his glory. Without God's glory, there would be nothing.

What is the glory of god? It is who God is. It is the essence of his nature, the weight of his importance, the radiance pf his spendor, the demonstartion of his power, and the atmosphere of his presence. God's glory is the expression of his goodness and all his other intrinsic, eternal qualities.

Where is the glory of God? Just look around. Everything created by God reflects his glory in some way. We see it everywhere, from the smallest microscopic form of life to the vast Milky Way, from the sunsets and stars to storms and seasons.

Creation reveals our Creators glory. In nature we learn that God is powerful, that He enjoys variety, loves beauty, is organised, and is wise and creative. The Bible says, "The heavens declare the glory of God."

Throughout history, God has revealed his glory to people in different settings. He revealed it first in the Garden of Eden, then to Moses, then in the tabernacle and the temple, then through Jesus, and now through the church. It was portrayed as a consuming fire, a cloud, thunder, smoke, and a brilliant light. In heaven, God's glory provides all the light needed. The Bible says, "The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light."

God's glory is best seen in Jesus Christ. He, the light of the world, illuminates God's nature. Because of Jesus, we are no longer in the dark about what God is really like. The Bible says "The Son is the radiance of God's glory." Jesus came to earth so that we could fully understand God's glory. "The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory... a glory full of grace and truth."

God's inherent glory is what he possesses because he is God. It is his nature. We cannot add anything to this glory, just as it would be impossible to make the sun shiner brighter. But we are commanded to recognize his glory, and live for his glory. Why? Because God deserves it! We owe him every honor we can possibly give. Since God made all things, he deserves all the glory. The Bible says, "You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power and might. For you created everything."

In the entire universe, only two of God's creations fail to bring glory to him: fallen angels (demons) and us (people). All sin, at its root, is failing to give God glory. It is loving anything else more than God. Refusing to bring glory to God is prideful rebellion, and it is the sin that caused Satan's fall - and ours, too. In different ways we have all lived for our own glory, not God's. The Bible says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

None of us have given God the full glory he deserves from our lives. This is the worst sin and the biggest mistake we can make. On the other hand, living for God's glory is the greatest achievement we can accomplish with our lives. God says, "They are my people, and I have created them to bring me glory," so it ought to be the supreme goal of our lives.

.

1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[Hismessenger]

And Amen again for we are not here for ourselves but to his purpose which we are created for, to wit as you have said, to His glory. Peace and blessings to you and yours.

hismessenger

 

[Breckmin]

Let me ask you this. In a movie, the script writer has scripted all the choices which the characters will make. Why is it so hard to believe this of God for it is His creation written for His purpose, not ours.

God is not a man that He should make a movie. Our choices are REAL...
God chastises and "drags us" until we make the correct choices IF we are
His elect children.

This is NOT about "believability." This is about whether or not your
assertion is true or not.

God did NOT create sin and disobedience. He created beings with choices and sin and disobedience are a potential byproduct of such ability.

 

[Hismessenger]

So it is your belief that a perfect God would manifest a creation with many flaws and wickedness without being aware of what He set forth. If the scripture says that He created the wicked for the day of destruction, do you deny His word or say that isn't what is says. He said that He creates the evil, there are many forms of evil besides just the devil. And He is the one who wrought all of them. Believe it or not. What you believe doesn't change the facts or move God to change anything in what he has purposed.

I for one submit my mind and my understanding to him and let Him be the God that He is. You try and limit Him which is a sin in and of itself but most can't seem to grasp that aspect of the truth. It is His will or nothing.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

And you know what crazy about this, without Him and His mind, there would be no movie or scripts. God almighty in all things Amen.

hismessenger

 

[Zeena]

So it is your belief that a perfect God would manifest a creation with many flaws and wickedness without being aware of what He set forth.

Genesis 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Behold, this only have I found: that God made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

 

[Hismessenger]

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Behold, this only have I found: that God made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Because it is His creation, this was no surprise to him. Everything which He made was very good for the purpose for which it was created. It doesn't say that it was good in and of itself but for His purpose.

hismessenger

 

[Zeena]

It doesn't say that it was good in and of itself but for His purpose.

hismessenger

Where?

Where in Scripture does He say creation is not created good in and of itself?

Genesis 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.