God Created a Hell. Is It Horribly Unfair?

[Hieronymus]

No, I don't agree. That is not a compelling answer. I don't think people have libertarian free will, but even if I grated they did for the sake of argument, you still have the problem of God's foreknowledge and HIS choice to permit eternal suffering for finite misdemeanors. Why think eternal punishment is more moral than forgiving peoples wrongs?

The Bible teaches death for the unsaved, not eternal punishing.
Yes, the punishment, the 2nd death is eternal, of course.
Dead for ever.

 

[Hieronymus]

Sure, sovereignty we are different, but not on holiness and eternal punishment.

Read Wesley, Tozer, Brown, et al, they will agree with us regarding the doctrine of holiness and hell.

Better read the Bible in stead.

 

[Jonaitis]

Libertarian free will.
And I'm not getting into this discussion.

I believe God has sovereign control over everything.
I believe He gave us free will...and it was never taken away. We are made in His image.

Because God allows things to happen does not mean that He causes things to happen.

If He causes things to happen, then God has predestined every abortion, murder, rape, etc.

If God has predestined everything then He is a God of confusion because he has predestined YOU to be reformed and He has predestined ME not to be reformed.

Predestination makes no logical sense.
And with that I must say good night.

I agree, God gave us the will to act as free agents. I don't agree that God did not predetermined those choices. We are not 'robots,' we actually think and act upon our own thoughts, impulses and feelings. It is the high mystery of God that somehow, as free working agents, our choices, though done willfully and freely, were predetermined. It is baffling and hard to figure out. How was it that men crucified our Lord with such envy and hatred, not knowing that they were fulfilling prophecy? How was it that out of envy and hatred, Joseph's brothers were doing their part in fulfilling his dreams? They thought to put an end to his dreams, but in selling him to traders, they were helping him on his way to fulfill them! Unless those events happened to Joseph on the part of those individuals, he would not have done what he was predestined to become.

It is written throughout Scripture that God has predetermined all things. Let me ask, was the Babylonian invasion God's punishment for Israel's apostasy, or was it Nebuchadnezzar who wanted to conquer the world? Here, God's sovereignty and man's responsibility is compatible, but we cannot fathom how it works.

Has anyone played the game the 'God of War 4'? If you have ever finished it, what happened at the end? They find out the mother knew everything before she died, and drew their journey out in the same place she wanted her ashes thrown. It was predetermined that they would do those things before the end. It is a pretty cool story.

Predestination is the only logical truth. If God didn't predestine, then he must have been less in control over his creation. It would also imply that God isn't omniscient. He would have to look down through the tunnels of time to see what man would do, and learn from that. God cannot learn, he knows all things perfectly. He does not need to look down into history to know what would happen. If he predestined all things, he would know perfectly why it happened, because it was in his design.

If predestination isn't logical, then how could Jesus have successfully fulfilled all things before his crucifixion as prophesied without interfering with men's wills and their actions? It is saying that there was a potential of him failing, and his plan not going through. To suggest otherwise means that God had control of how men would respond and how they would act, so that nothing would thwart the mission of Christ.

 

[Jonaitis]

Better read the Bible in stead.

Oh, I don't read that.

 

[Hieronymus]

Oh, I don't read that.

No wonder then..

 

[Sketcher]

For many many people it matters A LOT, obviously.
The traditional teaching of eternal conscious torment is perhaps the number 1 reason why people hate God and Christians or just don't want anything to do with it.
But maybe you don't know any unbelievers, or you don't love them so you don't care if they will be tortured forever and ever and ever, never ending.
But that would mean you don't love your fellow humans and you might end up there yourself.

So, what does the Bible teach then?
That should sort things out.

Oh, I know some, and I enjoy their company.

I get the emotional hangup, but it's just an emotional one. It doesn't make any logical sense to reject God when everything that Christianity teaches about God is accounted for.

 

[Jonaitis]

No wonder then..

 

[Hieronymus]

Oh, I know some, and I enjoy their company.

I get the emotional hangup,

Don't reduce the moral argument to 'emotional hangups'.
Not cool.

It doesn't make any logical sense to reject God when everything that Christianity teaches about God is accounted for.

I pointed out the logical problems of eternal conscious torment here: #58
I also mentioned the Scriptural teachings regarding the fate of the humans after Judgement.
The wages of sin is death, not life.

 

[Sketcher]

Don't reduce the moral argument to 'emotional hangups'.
Not cool.

Appeal to emotion doesn't make you right.

I pointed out the logical problems of eternal conscious torment here: #58

Please clarify what the logical issues are, not just the disagreeable ones.

 

[Broken Fence]

Greetings and Salutations,
I have no idea the theology or docternal points y'all are talking about. My understanding of what I read in my Bible. Is God is longsuffering His wrath not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance.

 

[Caliban]

The Bible teaches death for the unsaved, not eternal punishing.
Yes, the punishment, the 2nd death is eternal, of course.
Dead for ever.

I don't think the 66 books of the Bible constitute a synchronicity of doctrine or teaching. Some reflect ideas that the underworld includes all dead, other books, especially the NT, consider hell punishment. I don't think anyone can say the "Bible" teaches this or that. There is far too much variability and debate within the theological traditions of the authors.

 

[Caliban]

Greetings and Salutations,
I have no idea the theology or docternal points y'all are talking about. My understanding of what I read in my Bible. Is God is longsuffering His wrath not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance.

People will certainly debate that. The Hebrew Bible and the Christian New Testament seem to have different narratives on Sheol, Hades, and Hell.

 

[Moral Orel]

Ah, you're talking about annihilationism, I didn't think you were before.

That choice is up to God, and his responsibility. Since he has all supremacy, I don't see a reason to insist on that. It also makes no difference as to whether or not Christianity is true, or whether or not God should be followed.

I'm not insisting on it, I'm merely pointing out that it solves the problem the OP put forth that Heaven can't have bad people in it, therefore they must go to Hell. I'm not going to get dragged into a "So you think you know better than God?!" argument, but whatever reason any human Christian thinks up, I bet I can defeat that.

 

[Moral Orel]

They are sinners, and have sinned against God Almighty. It isn't a crime against fellow man, it isn't a crime against a world leader, it is crime against the Maker himself, who deserves our absolute allegiance. It is far grave to sin against the Most High than it would be to be unfaithful to your wife, to disrespect your elderly parents, to attempt to kill the President of the United States (which all are sin). We are talking about the Being of all beings, the Life of all that lives, the I AM WHO I AM. He has no equals and none understands the depths of his ways. He is more supreme than our thoughts can imagine, and higher in glory than anything fifth of dunghill that we can create and call it 'glory.'

All are sinners, all have sinned against God almighty, yadda yadda, the rest of what you said.

 

[Moral Orel]

There's no injustice no matter what you believe. Because ALL of us deserve to be punished for sinning against God. God didnt have to provide a way out but in his loving kindness and mercy, he did.

Mercy is injustice. You're going to Heaven, but you say that you deserve to be punished.

 

[thomas_t]

And "love by force" isn't the alternative. In the after life, God and I could sit down and have a chat. I could get to know him. I could come to love God naturally -- no force involved. Why anyone should imagine he shouldn't do that now, I'll never know. (And no, it's not force. And no, faith is not that much of a virtue.)

interesting.
I would like to answer this question as if you would have stated God could do that with anybody. And not only with you.
Without wanting to compare you to anyone... God and Cain already sat down had a chat, Cain loved God, I think... and a day later Abel was dead. See Genesis 4.
Some thousand years God sat down with other people and then Jesus was dead. He died horribly.
God sitting down with people apperently does not prevent them from doing harm to others... including his son who died on the cross.

 

[agapelove]

I find it entertaining that “hell” preachers cannot even agree on what they are preaching.

 

[Tinker Grey]

interesting.
I would like to answer this question as if you would have stated God could do that with anybody. And not only with you.
Without wanting to compare you to anyone... God and Cain already sat down had a chat, Cain loved God, I think... and a day later Abel was dead. See Genesis 4.
Some thousand years God sat down with other people and then Jesus was dead. He died horribly.
God sitting down with people apperently does not prevent them from doing harm to others... including his son who died on the cross.

I should think that that is proof that God having a conversation with a person isn't a violation of free will.

If your god is omnipotent and omniscient, he knows what it takes to achieve his goals (that none should perish) and he has the power to do it. In eternity, there are no time limits. Get the job done.

Hell is laziness.

 

[thomas_t]

he knows what it takes to achieve his goals (that none should perish) and he has the power to do it.

Did you just disprove God? Just kidding...
There is also free will.
My apologetic is like this:
When people choose to sin and subsequently choose not to do nothing about it... the sin is still there and God does not admit them to heaven it seems.
I interpret the passage where it says that God does not want anyone to perish... as saying that he does so given both free will + the necessity for man to bring their sin "to the cross" as devout Christians would say.
Thomas

 

[Tinker Grey]

Did you just disprove God? Just kidding...
There is also free will.
My apologetic is like this:
When people choose to sin and subsequently choose not to do nothing about it... the sin is still there and God does not admit them to heaven it seems.
I interpret the passage where it says that God does not want anyone to perish... as saying that he does so given both free will + the necessity for man to bring their sin "to the cross" as devout Christians would say.
Thomas

Does an omnisicent god know what would be effective?
Does an omnipotent god have the power to do that effective thing?

If he doesn't do the thing, what should we conclude?

He's not omniscient? He's not omnipotent? He's not good? Maybe he's evil. Maybe he is willing that any should perish. Maybe he's non-existent.