God Created a Hell. Is It Horribly Unfair?

[GodsGrace101]

See the problem is that eternal hell for the non-believer (and I reject the term 'criminal' ... disbelief is not criminal) has no possibility of relief, no chance of redemption.

Let's say your god is real and that heaven and hell are real. Surely the non-believer upon death is transformed to a believer. Christians routinely say that "I am a sinner; I am just forgiven". Well, let God forgive me. If I have to be taught to be worthy, let him teach me. If I have to suffer for a long time, let there be an end to it.

If upon death I were to believe, why couldn't I be "a sinner and just forgiven", too.

A god would have lots of options. An eternal hell isn't a good one.

Tinker Grey
Maybe you could write an instruction handbook for God since you know better than He does how to handle His creation.

And you could have a special section that teaches God how to FORCE you to become a follower of His.
Yes. God just loves being loved BY FORCE.

 

[Sketcher]

They didn't cease to exist, they died and went to Hell.

Ah, you're talking about annihilationism, I didn't think you were before.

That choice is up to God, and his responsibility. Since he has all supremacy, I don't see a reason to insist on that. It also makes no difference as to whether or not Christianity is true, or whether or not God should be followed.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Tinker Grey
Maybe you could write an instruction handbook for God since you know better than He does how to handle His creation.

And you could have a special section that teaches God how to FORCE you to become a follower of His.
Yes. God just loves being loved BY FORCE.

Apparently I know what is just better than what Christians do.

Of course, I think me not being tortured is better than me being tortured. How can you defend torture? For ETERNITY?!?!

I've given several alternate ideas. It's a lousy apologetic that says "well, maybe God has his reasons". The point of apologetics is for the apologizer to give me those reasons.

So far, nada.

And "love by force" isn't the alternative. In the after life, God and I could sit down and have a chat. I could get to know him. I could come to love God naturally -- no force involved. Why anyone should imagine he shouldn't do that now, I'll never know. (And no, it's not force. And no, faith is not that much of a virtue.)

The idea that I should love a being that won't present itself is preposterous.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In order to solve the hell problem God had to first die for our sins. Whether you believe they were for his elect that he chose or whether you believe it was for all mankind doesnt change a thing. God paid the price that we deserved so that we could be with him and serve him for forever.

Heaven will be eternal bliss and joy and eternal servitude for Gods sheep while Gods goats will experience everlasting contempt.

But have you ever thought that heaven would be hell to the wicked? Think about it. They hate God and WANT to be separated from God. They love their sin so God keeps them permanently in their sin. Their hearts are so wicked and turned away from Gof that they woukdnt WANT to serve God even if he physically came down from heaven and said "I am God worship and serve me".

There's no injustice no matter what you believe. Because ALL of us deserve to be punished for sinning against God. God didnt have to provide a way out but in his loving kindness and mercy, he did.

The reason I asked is because the doctrine of total depravity teaches that no one can repent unless God enables them to do so and the doctrine of unconditional election teaches that no one can influence God’s decision in any way to grant them grace enabling them to repent. So my point was that if this is your position then only those who are granted grace would be deserving of their punishment. Those who are not granted grace according to Calvin’s doctrines were created completely incapable of repentance and God knew this even before He implemented His commandments. This would mean that God has set them up to fail. A person cannot be held accountable for failing to meet certain expectations if the person is incapable of meeting the expectations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Apparently I know what is just better than what Christians do.

Of course, I think me not being tortured is better than me being tortured. How can you defend torture? For ETERNITY?!?!

I've given several alternate ideas. It's a lousy apologetic that says "well, maybe God has his reasons". The point of apologetics is for the apologizer to give me those reasons.

So far, nada.

And "love by force" isn't the alternative. In the after life, God and I could sit down and have a chat. I could get to know him. I could come to love God naturally -- no force involved. Why anyone should imagine he shouldn't do that now, I'll never know. (And no, it's not force. And no, faith is not that much of a virtue.)

The idea that I should love a being that won't present itself is preposterous.

Your still assuming that you know the full equation, so your statement is made in a complete vacuum of perception and comprehension. We have no idea why God chose for it to be this way.

 

[eleos1954]

I recently read complaints about hell in another thread. Creating hell was evil and so on ... according to the author of such claims.
That's why I responded here, it would have been off topic there.

My answer to this question, no it's not horribly unfair.
You need the seperation aspect.
When you allow criminals to enter heaven, they transfrom heaven into an eternal hell for all their victims.
I prefer a heaven heaven. Not a hell heaven.

There will be criminals in heaven. There won't be crime in heaven.

Many a "criminal" have been saved my friend .... many.

Hell is the grave .... did God create death? No ... death entered the world through sin ... and sin entered the world through lucifer/satan .... and then through Adam & Eve into the human race.

death is a result of sin and when one dies a earthly death everybody turns to dust and goes to the grave awaiting either the 1st resurrection (of the saved) or the 2nd
resurrection (of the lost)

Romans 6:23
New Living Translation
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. AMEN!!!!

1 Corinthians 15:26
Berean Study Bible
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

 

[Caliban]

God doesnt choose hell for us. No.

It is us that choose hell by our way of life.

Many or most Christians believe in an omniscient god. Such a god then, created creatures he knew would go to hell. You cannot simply say it is the persons fault. Such a god is complicit. Romans 9:22 makes that clear.

 

[Caliban]

In order to solve the hell problem God had to first die for our sins. Whether you believe they were for his elect that he chose or whether you believe it was for all mankind doesnt change a thing. God paid the price that we deserved so that we could be with him and serve him for forever.

Heaven will be eternal bliss and joy and eternal servitude for Gods sheep while Gods goats will experience everlasting contempt.

But have you ever thought that heaven would be hell to the wicked? Think about it. They hate God and WANT to be separated from God. They love their sin so God keeps them permanently in their sin. Their hearts are so wicked and turned away from Gof that they woukdnt WANT to serve God even if he physically came down from heaven and said "I am God worship and serve me".

There's no injustice no matter what you believe. Because ALL of us deserve to be punished for sinning against God. God didnt have to provide a way out but in his loving kindness and mercy, he did.

Such a god would be radically unjust. Who are these people hating God? God provided a way out??? Why not just forgive everyone? Problem solved.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Apparently I know what is just better than what Christians do.

Of course, I think me not being tortured is better than me being tortured. How can you defend torture? For ETERNITY?!?!

I've given several alternate ideas. It's a lousy apologetic that says "well, maybe God has his reasons". The point of apologetics is for the apologizer to give me those reasons.

So far, nada.

And "love by force" isn't the alternative. In the after life, God and I could sit down and have a chat. I could get to know him. I could come to love God naturally -- no force involved. Why anyone should imagine he shouldn't do that now, I'll never know. (And no, it's not force. And no, faith is not that much of a virtue.)

The idea that I should love a being that won't present itself is preposterous.

Did I defend torture?
Do you know what it means to be just?
Are your alternate ideas better than God's?
Apologetics do NOT apologize.
Nada as far as your concerned...as far as Christianity is concerned my above questions are muy importante.
God speaks to ALL men...you just don't care to hear Him.

It's rather sad.

 

[Lost4words]

Many or most Christians believe in an omniscient god. Such a god then, created creatures he knew would go to hell. You cannot simply say it is the persons fault. Such a god is complicit. Romans 9:22 makes that clear.

God gave everyone free will.

We have choices in life.

 

[Jonaitis]

I recently read complaints about hell in another thread. Creating hell was evil and so on ... according to the author of such claims.
That's why I responded here, it would have been off topic there.

My answer to this question, no it's not horribly unfair.
You need the seperation aspect.
When you allow criminals to enter heaven, they transfrom heaven into an eternal hell for all their victims.
I prefer a heaven heaven. Not a hell heaven.

Hell is perfectly good. It is perfectly wise. It is perfectly just.

It is a low view of God to suggest hell is cruel.

They do not understand the nature holiness, nor the grave nature of treason against the high dignity of God. These individuals want God to be at their level, and to be treated as one of us. Sorry, God is above us in every respect that is awe-some. So until they have a better understanding of God, they will see him as an equal.

 

[Caliban]

God gave everyone free will.

We have choices in life.

No, I don't agree. That is not a compelling answer. I don't think people have libertarian free will, but even if I grated they did for the sake of argument, you still have the problem of God's foreknowledge and HIS choice to permit eternal suffering for finite misdemeanors. Why think eternal punishment is more moral than forgiving peoples wrongs?

 

[Jonaitis]

Let's say good folk somehow can have free will and never sin again in Heaven. God could still let in the bad folk, strip them of their free will, and no one would wreck the party like the OP suggests. No one deserves to be there anyways, according to Christianity, so it wouldn't be unjust.

They are sinners, and have sinned against God Almighty. It isn't a crime against fellow man, it isn't a crime against a world leader, it is crime against the Maker himself, who deserves our absolute allegiance. It is far grave to sin against the Most High than it would be to be unfaithful to your wife, to disrespect your elderly parents, to attempt to kill the President of the United States (which all are sin). We are talking about the Being of all beings, the Life of all that lives, the I AM WHO I AM. He has no equals and none understands the depths of his ways. He is more supreme than our thoughts can imagine, and higher in glory than anything fifth of dunghill that we can create and call it 'glory.'

 

[Lost4words]

No, I don't agree. That is not a compelling answer. I don't think people have libertarian free will, but even if I grated they did for the sake of argument, you still have the problem of God's foreknowledge and HIS choice to permit eternal suffering for finite misdemeanors. Why think eternal punishment is more moral than forgiving peoples wrongs?

We get choices in life. Our own choices.

Yes, God is all knowing but, He doesnt choose the path we make. He knows though

 

[Caliban]

Hell is perfectly good. It is perfectly wise. It is perfectly just.

It is a low view of God to suggest hell is cruel.

They do not understand the nature holiness, nor the grave nature of treason against the high dignity of God. These individuals want God to be at their level, and to be treated as one of us. Sorry, God is above us in every respect that is awe-some. So until they have a better understanding of God, they will see him as an equal.

I understand the Reformed concept of holiness, hell, and God's sovereignty; I just don't agree. Don't assume people don't understand your theology. Many of us have read Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Spurgeon, Sproul, Packer, The Three Forms of Unity etc... Our disagreement is not for a lack of study or information--it comes from it.

 

[Jonaitis]

I understand the Reformed concept of holiness, hell, and God's sovereignty; I just don't agree. Don't assume people don't understand your theology. Many of us have read Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Spurgeon, Sproul, Packer, The Three Forms of Unity etc... Our disagreement is not for a lack of study or information--it comes from it.

What does Reformed theology have to do with this discussion? It is not a Reformed article, it is a foundational truth to our salvation. Your reply was more than unnecessary.

 

[Caliban]

We get choices in life. Our own choices.

Yes, God is all knowing but, He doesnt choose the path we make. He knows though

That is not true. Repeating it does not make it true. I know you sincerely believe it, but I would need a reason to think this is true.
You did not respond to my previous critique of foreknowledge and justice. What do you think about it?

 

[Lost4words]

That is not true. Repeating it does not make it true. I know you sincerely believe it, but I would need a reason to think this is true.
You did not respond to my previous critique of foreknowledge and justice. What do you think about it?

I believe it. Thats all that matters my friend...

 

[Caliban]

What does Reformed theology have to do with this discussion? It is not a Reformed article, it is a foundational truth to our salvation. Your reply was more than unnecessary.

Because it says you are reformed under your avatar and you criticized people for not understanding the theological concept of holiness. My comment was relevant.

 

[Jonaitis]

Because it says you are reformed under your avatar and you criticized people for not understanding the theological concept of holiness. My comment was relevant.

This 'concept' was something I understood before I was 'Reformed.' It is a basic tenet of the Christian faith.