God Created a Hell. Is It Horribly Unfair?

[Caliban]

This 'concept' was something I understood before I was 'Reformed.' It is a basic tenet of the Christian faith.

Great--my point stands.

 

[Caliban]

I believe it. Thats all that matters my friend...

End of discussion I guess.

 

[GodsGrace101]

No, I don't agree. That is not a compelling answer. I don't think people have libertarian free will, but even if I grated they did for the sake of argument, you still have the problem of God's foreknowledge and HIS choice to permit eternal suffering for finite misdemeanors. Why think eternal punishment is more moral than forgiving peoples wrongs?

You're a skeptic but you don't think people have libertarian free will???

 

[Caliban]

You're a skeptic but you don't think people have libertarian free will???

Correct.

 

[Jonaitis]

Great--my point stands.

Great, we agree to disagree. Let a 'skeptic' tell us what we believe.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I understand the Reformed concept of holiness, hell, and God's sovereignty; I just don't agree. Don't assume people don't understand your theology. Many of us have read Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Spurgeon, Sproul, Packer, The Three Forms of Unity etc... Our disagreement is not for a lack of study or information--it comes from it.

I agree witih the above statement by you...
but in this case @Jonaitis is perfectly correct and what he says is believed by all Christians, not just the reformed.

Some stuff in those 1,200 pages of the Institutes just might be right!

 

[Caliban]

Great, we agree to disagree. Let a 'skeptic' tell us what we believe.

Did I do that? I said that I am familure with the Reformed/Protestant perspective concerning these issues. How did you interpret that as me telling you what to believe?

 

[Jonaitis]

Some stuff in those 1,200 pages of the Institutes just might be right!

You know, I agree with you, not everything in the Institutes are correct!

 

[Caliban]

I agree witih the above statement by you...
but in this case @Jonaitis is perfectly correct and what he says is believed by all Christians, not just the reformed.

Some stuff in those 1,200 pages of the Institutes just might be right!

Agreed, but I wanted to contrast the theology of the Protestant Reformed from Protestant Armenians who often differ slightly on matters of sovereignty and holiness.

 

[Jonaitis]

Agreed, but I wanted to contrast the theology of the Protestant Reformed from Protestant Armenians who often differ slightly on matters of sovereignty and holiness.

Sure, sovereignty we are different, but not on holiness and eternal punishment.

Read Wesley, Tozer, Brown, et al, they will agree with us regarding the doctrine of holiness and hell.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Agreed, but I wanted to contrast the theology of the Protestant Reformed from Protestant Armenians who often differ slightly on matters of sovereignty and holiness.

But we agree on many teachings.
Also, I dislike the term "Protestant Arminian".
(not Armenian- that's a place)

The reason is that I'm Protestant but I'm not even familiar with Arminius -- not enough to discuss him or his beliefs.

And, I'm finding these days, that not even every reformed, or calvinist as we say, are in agreement with each other.

I know the reformation was necessary, but I wish some doctrine had not changed. (we'd be more united).

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sure, sovereignty we are different, but not on holiness and eternal punishment.

Read Wesley, Tozer, Brown, et al, they will agree with us regarding the doctrine of holiness and hell.

I would also say that ALL Christians agree on God's sovereignty.

Not to change the subject....but I believe the dividing line comes with beliefs about Free Will and Total Depravity.

And that's my soap box speech for this evening...
And I love to agree with the reformed whenever possible! We are all brothers in Christ.

 

[Caliban]

Sure, sovereignty we are different, but not on holiness and eternal punishment.

Read Wesley, Tozer, Brown, et al, they will agree with us regarding the doctrine of holiness and hell.

There are slight differences with Holiness between Reformed and liberal theologians. I don't see how that is in dispute. The doctrine of hell however, is radically different between the two. I have know differences among the Reformed in regard to hell; some believe in eternal corporal punishment and a minority are annihilationists.

 

[Jonaitis]

I would also say that ALL Christians agree on God's sovereignty.

Not to change the subject....but I believe the dividing line comes with beliefs about Free Will and Total Depravity.

And that's my soap box speech for this evening...
And I love to agree with the reformed whenever possible! We are all brothers in Christ.

Well, if you are in disagreement with the doctrine of total depravity, then you would likely disagree with the concept of divine determinism in favor of libertarian free will. We believe God has sovereign control over the minutest matter of our lives, even our thoughts and actions. Our whole lives have been predetermined before we were born, and before the world was made, and that everything is being carried out by God through working agents and second causes.

When people use 'free will' I don't know which one they are talking about, people need to be more specific.

 

[Jonaitis]

There are slight differences with Holiness between Reformed and liberal theologians. I don't see how that is in dispute. The doctrine of hell however, is radically different between the two. I have know differences among the Reformed in regard to hell; some believe in eternal corporal punishment and a minority are annihilationists.

Arminianism ≠ Liberialism.

Traditional Arminians are very similar in many ways to Traditional Reformed.

 

[Caliban]

Again, I didn't say it did. I merely mentioned multiple theological traditions.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Well, if you are in disagreement with the doctrine of total depravity, then you would likely disagree with the concept of divine determinism in favor of libertarian free will. We believe God has sovereign control over the minutest matter of our lives, even our thoughts and actions. Our whole lives have been predetermined before we were born, and before the world was made, and that everything is being carried out by God through working agents and second causes.

When people use 'free will' I don't know which one they are talking about, people need to be more specific.

Libertarian free will.
And I'm not getting into this discussion.

I believe God has sovereign control over everything.
I believe He gave us free will...and it was never taken away. We are made in His image.

Because God allows things to happen does not mean that He causes things to happen.

If He causes things to happen, then God has predestined every abortion, murder, rape, etc.

If God has predestined everything then He is a God of confusion because he has predestined YOU to be reformed and He has predestined ME not to be reformed.

Predestination makes no logical sense.
And with that I must say good night.

 

[Hieronymus]

I recently read complaints about hell in another thread.

Define "hell" first.
Lots of wild ideas floating around.

The Bible mentions 2 things:

1] Sheol / Hades
2] Gehenna / the lake of Fire

1 is where the dead are (probably 'asleep' as in not conscious)
2 is here the wicked are destroyed, where the chaff is incinerated, the 2nd death, which is forever death, never to become alive again, destroyed, perished.

Creating hell was evil and so on ... according to the author of such claims.
That's why I responded here, it would have been off topic there.

My answer to this question, no it's not horribly unfair.

So you seem to be talking about the traditional version of hell, where the unsaved live forever, consciously, being tortured for ever and ever without an end, a particular purpose or outcome.
Eternally suffering in agony that never ever stops, because the Lord didn't call you in your mere 80 years in the flesh.
And God is apparently forever angry and hateful towards these people who did not hear Him.
Justice will never be done because the punishing is never finished.
Meanwhile the saved are in God's Kingdom in a loving relationship with the LORD, while many people you used to know and love, who we were supposed to love by the Law of Christ, are being tortured, because God will never stop hating them and his Wrath is never satisfied.

You need the seperation aspect.

Yes, so we read John 3:16 for example, or any other verse or passage about the fate of humans.
It's to live forever or to perish in the 2nd death (after Judgement).
God harvests the wheat and burns the chaff.
There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the Bible.
About 90% of the texts regarding our ultimate fate teach eternal life versus eternal death.
The other 10% are debatable.
But none the less, the traditional teaching of christianity is etrnal life in hell.
This was a useful teaching to submit the people and give organized christianity power over the people, as the only way to avoid their "hell".

When you allow criminals to enter heaven, they transfrom heaven into an eternal hell for all their victims.

Yes, that makes sense, of course.

I prefer a heaven heaven. Not a hell heaven.

In God's Kingdom there is no place for sin or sinners.
God is a consuming Fire.
Only gold can survive in his Presence.
He can purify contaminated gold too, by burning off the dirt.

Do you love any people who are not Christians?
Would you be okay with them being tortured for ever and ever?

 

[cloudyday2]

My answer to this question, no it's not horribly unfair.
You need the seperation aspect.
When you allow criminals to enter heaven, they transfrom heaven into an eternal hell for all their victims.
I prefer a heaven heaven. Not a hell heaven.

In the gospels, Jesus typically goes to the people who have been ostracized from Jewish society due to their concerns that adding an impurity to a pure thing makes the pure thing impure. But Jesus showed that the opposite happens. The impure thing become pure.

So your rationalization of hell seems to conflict with the teachings of Jesus. Jesus healed lepers so they could return to Jewish society.

 

[Hieronymus]

Ah, you're talking about annihilationism, I didn't think you were before.

That choice is up to God, and his responsibility. Since he has all supremacy, I don't see a reason to insist on that. It also makes no difference as to whether or not Christianity is true, or whether or not God should be followed.

For many many people it matters A LOT, obviously.
The traditional teaching of eternal conscious torment is perhaps the number 1 reason why people hate God and Christians or just don't want anything to do with it.
But maybe you don't know any unbelievers, or you don't love them so you don't care if they will be tortured forever and ever and ever, never ending.
But that would mean you don't love your fellow humans and you might end up there yourself.

So, what does the Bible teach then?
That should sort things out.