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God Created a Hell. Is It Horribly Unfair?

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thomas_t

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Does an omnisicent god know what would be effective?
Does an omnipotent god have the power to do that effective thing?

If he doesn't do the thing, what should we conclude?
In my opinion this logic does not work. There is also free will.
In another thread (touching the same issue), @MrsFoundit said it's like demanding God to create the square triangle.
You could apply the same logic here:
If God is omniscient, then he does know how to create it.
But he does not, ... so he does not exist maybe? Or he isn't omnipotent? Yes he does and yes he is, but he restricted himself.
God set up the creation rules according to which he created. This is the outcome. He can't create the square triangle in this world. And according to the rules of creation, it is also possible that some miss heaven.
 
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Tinker Grey

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In my opinion this logic does not work. There is also free will.
In another thread (touching the same issue), @MrsFoundit said it's like demanding God to create the square triangle.
You could apply the same logic here:
If God is omniscient, then he does know how to create it.
But he does not, ... so he does not exist maybe? Or he isn't omnipotent? Yes and Yes, but he restricted himself.
God set up the creation rules according to which he created. This is the outcome. He can't create the square triangle in this world. And according to the rules of creation, it is also possible that some miss heaven.
Of course it works. If God is omniscient, he knows how to reach us without violating free will. If he is omnipotent, he can reach us. If we're talking about doing this in lieu of hell, if he doesn't why should I not conclude that his failure to do so means he doesn't care, doesn't love, is evil, or doesn't exist.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I recently read complaints about hell in another thread. Creating hell was evil and so on ... according to the author of such claims.
That's why I responded here, it would have been off topic there.

My answer to this question, no it's not horribly unfair.
You need the seperation aspect.
When you allow criminals to enter heaven, they transfrom heaven into an eternal hell for all their victims.
I prefer a heaven heaven. Not a hell heaven.

This would suggest that the "criminals" in this supposition are somehow stronger than God. That is, to put it mildly, theologically abhorrent.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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thomas_t

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I find it entertaining that “hell” preachers cannot even agree on what they are preaching.
Actually, this thrad is about the existence of hell.
And that people have no reason to complain about it - this is my stance at least.
I for one don't preach hell. I try to preach salvation from it by faith alone.
 
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thomas_t

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Of course it works. If God is omniscient, he knows how to reach us without violating free will. If he is omnipotent, he can reach us. If we're talking about doing this in lieu of hell, if he doesn't why should I not conclude that his failure to do so means he doesn't care, doesn't love, is evil, or doesn't exist.
Let me try to follow your logic and show that it leads us to nowhere. Genesis 4 please:
1. God could and did reach Cain.
2. He did not violate free will.
3. However, God did care, he is not evil, he does exist and he does love.
4. Nevertheless, Abel died the next day.

Having said this, @CryptoLutheran might call point 4 abhorrent, because Cain seemed to have been stronger than God, he might say? I stay with it though...
 
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Tinker Grey

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Let me try to follow your logic and show that it leads us to nowhere. Genesis 4 please:
1. God could and did reach Cain.
2. He did not violate free will.
3. However, God did care, he is not evil, he does exist and he does love.
4. Nevertheless, Abel died the next day.

Having said this, @CryptoLutheran might call point 4 abhorrent, because Cain seemed to have been stronger than God, he might say? I stay with it though...
If Abel died the next day, then God failed in his mission -- for if God wanted to succeed he could. Right? If Cain still wasn't reached, God musn't have wanted to.
 
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agapelove

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Actually, this thrad is about the existence of hell.
And that people have no reason to complain about it - this is my stance at least.
I for one don't preach hell. I try to preach salvation from it by faith alone.

God did not create hell human beings did. And since its conception people have been arguing about every aspect of it.
 
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Moral Orel

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In another thread (touching the same issue), @MrsFoundit said it's like demanding God to create the square triangle.
What is the "square triangle"? I get that it's a metaphor, what is it a metaphor of? What is the impossible thing?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Let me try to follow your logic and show that it leads us to nowhere. Genesis 4 please:
1. God could and did reach Cain.
2. He did not violate free will.
3. However, God did care, he is not evil, he does exist and he does love.
4. Nevertheless, Abel died the next day.

Having said this, @CryptoLutheran might call point 4 abhorrent, because Cain seemed to have been stronger than God, he might say? I stay with it though...

By the time we've reached the story of Cain and Abel the world is already fallen. Adam and Eve have been exiled from Eden, and now must labor on the earth.

So I have no idea how the events described would lead to the idea that Cain overpowered God.

Rather, my issue is that when all is said and done, if the unrepentant were brought into God's presence in the Age to Come then somehow that would spoil that future age; as though God were somehow helpless against the corruptibility of the unrepentant.

But I must confess that I don't think the argument that "hell" is a separation from God to be compelling. After all, the Psalmist writes, "How can I escape from Your Presence? ... If I make my bed in She'ol, You are there". The idea that there could be a way to escape God's Presence does not comport with the biblical, and historically Christian, understanding of God's utter immanence--that He is everywhere and fills all things. We read, for example, the Apostle St. Paul say that we have one "God and Father of all, over all, through all, and in all" (Ephesians 4:6), or what the Apostle says elsewhere speaking of the consummation of all things that "God will be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28), or even in the Apocalypse where we read that light of God will fill all creation (Revelation 21:23).

That the Uncreated Light of God will illuminate all is one of the reasons why some in the ancient Church wondered if it were not possible that the point of Hell is purgative, rather than punitive. St. Gregory of Nyssa, for example, says that the fires of hell are a "purgatorial flame" comparing them to the refiner's fire that consumes the dross and in the process purifies silver and gold. Origen saw in the statement that God will be "all in all" to wonder how this could be unless, truly, in the end, there is a full and total restoration of all things. Now, I'm not arguing in the positive for ultimate reconciliation/universalism. I'm merely offering some counter-ideas here.

One thing to be mindful of is that in the West we have a long tradition of emphasizing judicial language when talking about the overarching relationships between God, creation, sin, salvation, etc. Thus the framework usually boils down to speaking about hell as a form of justice against the lawless. We violated the law, we are condemned by the law, and without pardon the law sentences us to hell. I'm not saying the entirety of that framework is wrong, but it is doubtlessly heavy-handed and lacking much in the nuance and other forms of language which not only Scripture, but Christianity on the whole, has used. Hence the value of the Eastern tradition. The reason why sin is a problem isn't chiefly in that it is a violation of legal code, but that it interrupts the communion which man has with God; righteousness is less about a legal system but being in relationship and communion with God. The deprivation of righteousness by sin has estranged us from God, and thus like branch cut off from the root it weakens, withers, dies. Salvation becomes less about addressing a cosmically large legal problem, and instead about restoring the communion between God and man, revivifying human beings, healing the wound, the balm of salvation healing what is wounded and sick, mending what is broken, and restoring what was broken. This is the language St. Paul uses when talking about Christ as the second Adam; that where Adam brought death, Christ brings life; what was broken in Adam is healed in Christ.

Note, again, I'm not arguing against judicial language. As a Lutheran that judicial language is baked into Lutheran theology, and I believe it is biblical. But I think we miss the bigger picture when we leave it just like that, we are missing the big picture ways in which God, by the Incarnation, is restoring, healing, reconciling, and mending the world.

And that can then get us back to the idea of hell. Since the whole paradigm, even of this thread itself, is by seeking to find the best argument by which to say, "Hell is just and it is about justice". Perhaps that is, itself, the completely wrong way to even think about the subject. Especially since it seems like there are bigger questions that should be asked, such as, "What is hell?" I mean that in the bigger sense too, what is hell in the context of the over-arching narrative of Redemption as we encounter it in Scripture, and more importantly, as it is alive to us through the Gospel and the reality of Jesus Christ Himself?

What is hell?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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thomas_t

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If Abel died the next day, then God failed in his mission -- for if God wanted to succeed he could. Right? If Cain still wasn't reached, God musn't have wanted to.
God wanted to, says the Bible (Genesis 4:6, my interpretation of the story).
But Cain had free will. Cain didn't want to obey and chose sin.
Actually, @ViaCrucis might take issue here saying that he can't think of a God who was "helpless" against Cain's corruptibility.
I stay with the Bible, here. Abel was dead indeed, it really happened.
Free will belongs to the creation. It's part of the setup rules of creation. So, Cain had free will. And God accepted Cain's free will.

As a comparison, the rules of creation demand triangles to have three sides. So, God can't create a triangle that is a square. It would violate the rules of this creation that God chooses to adhere to, as well.
(I hope this helps @Moral Orel ? The square triangle, for me, is just an example of the impossible thing in this world after God created it).
 
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Radagast

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I recently read complaints about hell in another thread.

People don't get to tell God what to do.

If people are thinking like that, they don't understand who they are, and they don't understand who God is.
 
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Radagast

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Free will belongs to the creation. It's part of the setup rules of creation. So, Cain had free will.

That's a completely meaningless statement unless you say which of the different kinds of "free will" you're talking about.

And God accepted Cain's free will.

Huh? :scratch:

Cain is in hell right now because of what he did.
 
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Moral Orel

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As a comparison, the rules of creation demand triangles to have three sides. So, God can't create a triangle that is a square. It would violate the rules of this creation that God chooses to adhere to, as well.
(I hope this helps @Moral Orel ? The square triangle, for me, is just an example of the impossible thing in this world after God created it).
Not really.... So I get that a square triangle is impossible. A square has four sides, and a triangle has three sides. One shape can't have three sides and four sides. That's the contradiction.

The square triangle is a metaphor for what other thing that would be contradictory? I think free will is part of it, I'm not sure though. So a being that has both free will and... what exactly?
 
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Larniavc

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If upon death I were to believe, why couldn't I be "a sinner and just forgiven", too.
It’s so all the ‘good’ people can look at the ‘bad’ people and say “I told you so”; forever.

Hell is all about being smug.
 
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thomas_t

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The square triangle is a metaphor for what other thing that would be contradictory? I think free will is part of it, I'm not sure though.
Mrs. Foundit's square triangle was a comparison for God being unable to allow for free will and always saving Abel or other people at the same time.
He can't have it both ways in this world he created, I think. Either he allows for free will and lots of people apparently end up dead or... he bans free will and people might live.
But God wanted a world comprising free will.
 
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Moral Orel

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Mrs. Foundit's square triangle was a comparison for God being unable to allow for free will and always saving Abel or other people at the same time.
He can't have it both ways in this world he created, I think. Either he allows for free will and lots of people apparently end up dead or... he bans free will and people might live.
But God wanted a world comprising free will.
So a world in which people have free will but no one kills each other is impossible? Isn't that what Heaven is supposed to be, or do you lose your free will when you die?
 
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Joy

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