God changed the Sabbath

[faroukfarouk]

I would love to live in a community where we are all one big church. If only it was viable and not likely to be a cult with twisted scripture.

Fellowship is wonderful; although there is no substitute to the individual searching the Scriptures rather than being "told" what to do.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I would love to live in a community where we are all one big church. If only it was viable and not likely to be a cult with twisted scripture.

Seek the Father Himself, as written and described in Scripture - not a big community, not a big "church" .
Read how Yhwh's Word describes believers in ACTS, Ephesians, Philippians, Revelation, Malachi, and so forth.
That is likely the ONLY place you'll have
opportunity to see Yhwh's description (of His People);
well, it is the ONLY place I know of besides a few faithful teachers trained by Him,
UNTIL Yhwh guides you to some actual believers living His Word.

 

[Rick Otto]

The point of the thread is that it is not tradition but rather a scripturally documented process that God endorsed. This is not a thread about grace vs law even tho that is what prompted the thread in the first place. In order to keep on topic as a general theology debate it needs to be kept to scripture references that speak about the endurance of God's Word on the Sabbath from old to new testament. As we are all Christians in this area of the forum it is important to keep Christ as the culmination of any thought.

Edit to add --- please let's keep this also to the greater picture that Paul pointed toward

Cassie, do you know, do you remember Bob Ryan?
As a Seventh Day Adventist, he lives and breathes this topic.
And as much as I appreciate the depth, and the request for scripture focused response (I notice I'm lacking in), I too am wondering a little about our scope here, if only for my own weaknesses in this area. I see the need for examining what exactly a commandment is.
I trend towards 'keep the two greatest commandments' and 'every day is the Lord's day' thinking.
Another thought is the irony in how religion turns a day of rest into a day of ritual duty.

 

[Rick Otto]

O boy. Liberty is better. Treat every day like its the Lords day and you can never go wrong.

I'm with you, but for her, that is liberty.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

For those who turn to Yhwh, as Jesus said to do,
who get born again, as only the Father in heaven by His Will can do,
who get a new and right spirit, which no one deserves or can earn in any way,
who receive (as IT IS WRITTEN) the MIND OF CHRIST,
it is no trouble, no burden, no grief,
to keep all of His Commands, as Jesus always says to do.
"My commandments are not burdensome" (read Psalm 119 to see how WONDERFUL TORAH IS).
"In keeping them there is great reward."
and continuing -
who receive Yhwh's Torah WRITTEN UPON THEIR HEART,
who receive "circumcision of HEART" ,

they (we ekklesia born again by the Father's Will, not our own)
REJOICE in willing and whole hearted obedience to the Father
and following the Shepherd Yeshua (whose VOICE WE HEAR, no doubts, no fears (He takes all of them away) ) .

Heart? Whole Heart ? When there is no other god.
No flesh to follow. Not one of man's traditions to follow. (they HAVE NO GRIP ON US).
No sin has power over us.
The world hates us, but so what !? The world has nothing in us, no power over us.

We may not know how ,
we don't have to.
JESUS KNOWS HOW. He told His disciples "I KNOW YOU DON'T KNOW HOW. Relax, I will show(train) you."

JESUS IS FAITHFUL and TRUE and PERFECT and COMPLETE and TEACHES US.

 

[Rick Otto]

For those who turn to Yhwh, as Jesus said to do,
who get born again, as only the Father in heaven by His Will can do,
who get a new and right spirit, which no one deserves or can earn in any way,
who receive (as IT IS WRITTEN) the MIND OF CHRIST,
it is no trouble, no burden, no grief,
to keep all of His Commands, as Jesus always says to do.
"My commandments are not burdensome" (read Psalm 119 to see how WONDERFUL TORAH IS).
"In keeping them there is great reward."
and continuing -
who receive Yhwh's Torah WRITTEN UPON THEIR HEART,
who receive "circumcision of HEART" ,

they (we ekklesia born again by the Father's Will, not our own)
REJOICE in willing and whole hearted obedience to the Father
and following the Shepherd Yeshua (whose VOICE WE HEAR, no doubts, no fears (He takes all of them away) ) .

Heart? Whole Heart ? When there is no other god.
No flesh to follow. Not one of man's traditions to follow. (they HAVE NO GRIP ON US).
No sin has power over us.
The world hates us, but so what !? The world has nothing in us, no power over us.

We may not know how ,
we don't have to.
JESUS KNOWS HOW. He told His disciples "I KNOW YOU DON'T KNOW HOW. Relax, I will show(train) you."

JESUS IS FAITHFUL and TRUE and PERFECT and COMPLETE and TEACHES US.

That almost reads like song lyrics to me.
I wrote one with the chorus quoting, " My peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not be afraid."
Rest.

 

[W2L]

I just responded with this in the Sabbath forums, and I would like to post it here too, if no one minds. Here is my thinking. Show me where I'm wrong. If we believe that Sunday is the new Sabbath then this applies, or if we believe that Saturday is the Sabbath, then this applies

What Ricjk just said about a day of rest, that's important I think. WE are resting from what exactly? Our own labors. Not Gods work, but our own.

What if I do like some folks in Romans 14 do, and I see every day as alike? I mean, what exactly did the Lord teach about Sabbath? He taught that its ok to do good on Sabbath. Therefore, if I can help my neighbor with some work on Sabbath, then that's ok right? A man is worth more that a sheep right? Also, if I can help my neighbor then surely I can help my own family too, and if I need to work on Sabbath to feed them then that's ok too right?

Isn't it the filthy love of money that God truly hates? If a man is working on Sabbath, or any other day for that matter, just to get rich, then isn't he missing the whole point of the Gospel doctrine?

If we truly observe Sabbath how the Lord did it in the scriptures then how can we go wrong? However this should be done every day shouldn't it? Why can I do good on one day but not another? Why should i cease from getting rich on one day but not another?

I see it this way, if we follow Paul's example, by not seeking wealth but being content with simple things, and if we do good always, good for others and our own families, and we do this daily, then we need not worry about what day of the week it is.


Show me the error in my logic here, if you can

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I see it this way, if we follow Paul's example, by not seeking wealth but being content with simple things, and if we do good always, good for others and our own families, and we do this daily, then we need not worry about what day of the week it is.

To me it looks like no one (no one else) wants to be a slave of Righteousness nor a slave of Jesus every day. Just a remnant - just a few of us.
It is written frequently in Scripture that we are either slaves of sin OR slaves of Righteousness (slaves of Jesus);
BUT most people don't care and aren't "willing", even if Jesus tells them Himself.
So,
for those, all of those, "not willing", they are like those the tower of siloam fell upon -
if they do not repent(turn to Yhwh) , they perish the same .
Same as Jerusalem Jesus said He would gather their children under His wings (there is NO SAFER PLACE ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE !!!!!!)
BUT
they "would not" --- they were not willing (to give up everything and seek the Father Only)

 

[W2L]

To me it looks like no one (no one else) wants to be a slave of Righteousness nor a slave of Jesus every day. Just a remnant - just a few of us.
It is written frequently in Scripture that we are either slaves of sin OR slaves of Righteousness (slaves of Jesus);
BUT most people don't care and aren't "willing", even if Jesus tells them Himself.
So,
for those, all of those, "not willing", they are like those the tower of siloam fell upon -
if they do not repent(turn to Yhwh) , they perish the same .
Same as Jerusalem Jesus said He would gather their children under His wings (there is NO SAFER PLACE ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE !!!!!!)
BUT
they "would not" --- they were not willing (to give up everything and seek the Father Only)

So you believe that folks who need a special day are failing to see that every day truly is alike in the Lord?

 

[Rick Otto]

To me it looks like no one (no one else) wants to be a slave of Righteousness nor a slave of Jesus every day. Just a remnant - just a few of us.
It is written frequently in Scripture that we are either slaves of sin OR slaves of Righteousness (slaves of Jesus);
BUT most people don't care and aren't "willing", even if Jesus tells them Himself.
So,
for those, all of those, "not willing", they are like those the tower of siloam fell upon -
if they do not repent(turn to Yhwh) , they perish the same .
Same as Jerusalem Jesus said He would gather their children under His wings (there is NO SAFER PLACE ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE !!!!!!)
BUT
they "would not" --- they were not willing (to give up everything and seek the Father Only)

I have been totally unwilling to be anybody's slave.
I ended up being a slave to myself and sin.
I still have problems with specifics, but I have learned the hard way to generally be willing.

 

[Rick Otto]

So you believe that folks who need a special day are failing to see that every day truly is alike in the Lord?

I think so, at least to some degree.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So you believe that folks who need a special day are failing to see that every day truly is alike in the Lord?

No.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You wont find anything commanding Christians to do anything back then, because they were Hebrews, Jews, and Gentile converts to Judaism. The word Christian was a term the pagans came up with to make fun of followers of Jesus who went by the his real name of Yahusha/Yeshua back then, so its not like they say....hey I want to follow Jesus Christ, so ill call my self a Christian, because that wasnt his name back then, so you will not find any commands specifically to Christians, because that would be adding to the word of God. There was no NT back then so they were all following what the had at the time, the OT.

There is no such thing as Christians commands or Jew commands, the bible is quite clear its one set of commands for God's people in the New Covenant.

They didn't have the New Testament back then, but you do.

Where in the New Testament are followers of Jesus Christ commanded to have their gathered worship on the Sabbath?

Please answer the question.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

They met every day. They also shared everything and had all things in common. That would be the better way.

You'll note that I never said Christians could only meet once a week.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[pilgrimage]

O boy- we do treat every day like the Lord's day- however- we specifically meet together (worship and communion)- as per scripture- on the first day of the week- also as per scripture- in honor of the Resurrection of Christ- which occurred on a Sunday. Thanks.

You posted earlier that litergy is required. Where in scripture do you find that?

 

[pilgrimage]

Cassie, do you know, do you remember Bob Ryan?
As a Seventh Day Adventist, he lives and breathes this topic.
And as much as I appreciate the depth, and the request for scripture focused response (I notice I'm lacking in), I too am wondering a little about our scope here, if only for my own weaknesses in this area. I see the need for examining what exactly a commandment is.
I trend towards 'keep the two greatest commandments' and 'every day is the Lord's day' thinking.
Another thought is the irony in how religion turns a day of rest into a day of ritual duty.

another wellknown SDA said that the views of the Philidelphian church era of 150 yrs ago has changed his thinking alot about what they teach.

 

[seashale76]

You posted earlier that litergy is required. Where in scripture do you find that?

What's liturgy? It is community/communal/public worship, aka 'work of the people', praise/thanksgiving/repentance/supplication/prayer/participation. In the Christian context, it is the worship of God centered around communion/eucharist. My question to you is how is that NOT in scripture?

 

[SAAN]

They didn't have the New Testament back then, but you do.

Where in the New Testament are followers of Jesus Christ commanded to have their gathered worship on the Sabbath?

Please answer the question.

-CryptoLutheran

The Sabbath wasnt an issue or a need as command to follow for them, because it was already being observed for 2000+yrs, so they already knew about the day, as it was obvious to them as it would be obvious to us as not having to be told to stop at a stop sign because we already know that we need to.

Where did it say they were commanded to gather on Sunday?

There was no command to. It became a more common practice in the 1st century when Christianity and Judaism were clashed and Christianity separated itself from Judaism and decided to do its own thing. So both sides were probably guilty of wrong doing, but its human nature to move away from drama if you keep experiencing it

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Sabbath wasnt an issue or a need as command to follow for them, because it was already being observed for 2000+yrs, so they already knew about the day, as it was obvious to them as it would be obvious to us as not having to be told to stop at a stop sign because we already know that we need to.

1. At no point was the Sabbath ever given as a command as a day to gather for worship. But if you have evidence to the contrary, offer it.
2. Try reading the New Testament, perhaps pay special attention to Acts 15 and Colossians 2.

Where did it say they were commanded to gather on Sunday?

Red herring, possible strawman, I haven't argued that there is a command to gather for worship on Sunday.

There was no command to.

Irrelevant, I made no claim that there was.

It became a more common practice in the 1st century when Christianity and Judaism were clashed and Christianity separated itself from Judaism and decided to do its own thing. So both sides were probably guilty of wrong doing, but its human nature to move away from drama if you keep experiencing it

Seeing as it was Christian practice to gather on the first day of the week, and this is historicaly demonstrable; and seeing as how followers of Jesus Christ were never under any compulsion to observe the Torah which had been given as part of the covenant God made with Israel on Sinai--and that it is abundantly clear throughout the New Testament that Gentile converts to Christianity were under no obligation to observe Torah; and finally seeing as how the Sabbath was not even given as a command as a day of weekly worship to the Jews you have literally nothing in your arsenal.

But let's try this again: Show me Scripture where followers of Jesus Christ are supposed to gather for worship on the Sabbath.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[SAAN]

They were given very specific commands in Hebrews not to turn back to Judaism. While that's after Judaism fell and long after the dispersion it was still very specifically commanded in Hebrews 6

A big problem in the NT was the circumcision party that went around trying to teach that you must be circumcised 1st in order to be saved and we all know only the blood can cover your sins and grace by faith in Christ is what you faith is based on. So alot of times you hear about the law, its mainly the added laws the pharisees tacked on to the commandments that was making it a huge burden or they were living like obedience to the law was all they needed to be saved and was denying the works of Christ.

But no one is turning to animal sacrifices or denying the Messiah here, so I dont think anyone is turning back to Judaism, even though that is what Christianity started from and all of its roots came from.

People that keep the Sabbath and Feast Days is not turning to Judaism as, God said it was his days and not the Jews days.

People keeping the dietary laws because God listed what was to be food, is not turning to Judaism, but just obeying God, as many of what he said not to eat are filthy animals.

Those 3 areas right there are the major difference between mainstream Christianity and Judaism and a few other sects that cause so much division, so its not alot of differences, but major ones.