God changed the Sabbath

[bugkiller]

Acts 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

The discussion in Acts 15 was not about whether Gentiles should obey God's commands, but rather it was about whether Gentiles should be required to follow Jewish man-made customs in order to become saved. God's law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised and it does not require anyone to become circumcised in order to become saved, but rather it was the customs of Moses that required that, and by rejecting that requirement, they were upholding God's law. We must obey God rather than man, so if God's law had required all Gentiles to become circumcised, then Gentiles should obey God rather than any man who tries to tell them otherwise, but the Jerusalem Council correctly ruled that it does not require that and certainly not for the purpose of becoming saved.

In Acts 20, it is important to keep in mind that for Jews the day started at sundown, so their first day of the week would start on what we would refer to as Saturday evening. Furthermore, the word that is translated as the "first day of the week" more specifically refers to the first.

Sorry but circumcision and the law is not man's tradition(s).

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Romans 15:18-19 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;

In these verses, fulfilling the gospel does not refer to doing away with it or to keeping it perfectly, but rather it refers to fully teaching obedience to it. So we should likewise understand Messiah's statement in Matthew 5:17 that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it as fully teaching obedience to it, which is precisely what he then proceeded to do in the rest of the chapter. Furthermore, Galatians 5:14 says that loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it is something that anyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has done, and not something unique to Messiah. Messiah summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so love fulfills the entire law because it demonstrating a full understanding of what the law is about.



If you take Colossians 2:16 by itself, then it is ambiguous as whether it is saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy days or for not keeping them. However, if we look at the views of the people judging them in Colossians 2:8 and Colossians 2:20-23, we will see that they were teaching human precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, not obedience to God's holy, righteous, and good law. Furthermore, if we look at the broader theme in the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, then it is clear that Colossians were being judge for obeying God's commands as they had been instructed and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man keep them from obeying God.

2 Peter 3:15-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

This is saying that Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words and fall into the error of lawlessness. In other words, if you interpret Paul as being against anyone obeying God's law to keep the Sabbath, then you have misunderstood him.

No because you fail to take in all Paul's letters which are predominately anti-law of Moses when it comes to Christianity.

bugkiller

 

[W2L]

You know I still love my argument about Jer 31:31-33. It fits right in with the OP very well. The reason I've never bothered with more argument is because those on the opposite side of the fence on this issue refuse to accept and believe Jeremiah or even Moses for that matter.

bugkiller

It sounds like you are sitting on the fence. You want to disagree with MJ and SDA, but you agree with Orthodox sunday worship. I don't understand your position at all. Its confusing.

 

[bugkiller]

Romans 15:18-19 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;

In these verses, fulfilling the gospel does not refer to doing away with it or to keeping it perfectly, but rather it refers to fully teaching obedience to it. So we should likewise understand Messiah's statement in Matthew 5:17 that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it as fully teaching obedience to it, which is precisely what he then proceeded to do in the rest of the chapter. Furthermore, Galatians 5:14 says that loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it is something that anyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has done, and not something unique to Messiah. Messiah summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so love fulfills the entire law because it demonstrating a full understanding of what the law is about.



If you take Colossians 2:16 by itself, then it is ambiguous as whether it is saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy days or for not keeping them. However, if we look at the views of the people judging them in Colossians 2:8 and Colossians 2:20-23, we will see that they were teaching human precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, not obedience to God's holy, righteous, and good law. Furthermore, if we look at the broader theme in the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, then it is clear that Colossians were being judge for obeying God's commands as they had been instructed and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man keep them from obeying God.

2 Peter 3:15-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

This is saying that Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words and fall into the error of lawlessness. In other words, if you interpret Paul as being against anyone obeying God's law to keep the Sabbath, then you have misunderstood him.

When it comes to Mat 5:17 you refuse to accept LK 24:44 which allows for the changing of the covenants.

bugkiller

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

@W2L Who are you replying to in #123 ?

 

[W2L]

You are either embracing liberty or law. There is no in between. Here is liberty. Its about understanding the works of the flesh and the fruit of the spirit. There are no Sundays mentioned here. I don't understand why Christians say that the law is wrong but Sunday worship is good. What does Sunday have to do with the works of the flesh or fruit of the spirit? Nothing that I can see. I don't just follow this Galatians scripture, but I follow all the words of Christ and his apostles, and Galatians still makes sense. Every command given by the Lord and his apostles seems to teach us to flee from flesh works.

Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

[W2L]

@W2L Who are you replying to in #123 ?

Bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

IN CONTEXT

Colossians 2:8-17
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.


11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.


Are the commands of God philosophy or empty deceit?
Are the commands of God tradition of men, basic principles of the world?
Are the commands of God not according to Christ?


It is extremely clear the issue in Colossians is, Paul is talking to new converts to the faith that used to be pagans and are now following Christ, so in their pagan society he is telling them NOT to let anyone judge them for keeping the commands of God like new moons, the Sabbath or Feast Days. They are all a shadow of what is to come in Christ.

HE IS NOT saying dont let anyone judge you for breaking the commands of God, like many on here are teaching.

Not to worry because you won't ever cheat me out of my relationship with God provided by grace.

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths... This says nothing about keeping or not keeping. It plainly says let no one judge you in regard to...

Again we go back to the NC spoken of by Jeremiah which says "new" and "not according to..."

There is no indication in Colossians about paganism.

The Christian isn't obligated to the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

It sounds like you are sitting on the fence. You want to disagree with MJ and SDA, but you agree with Orthodox sunday worship. I don't understand your position at all. Its confusing.

No but I just happen to coincide with them about the issue. This is incidental and not promoting the Orthodox religion.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Old covenant was written on stone. The blood of animals covers our sins when we repent.

New Covenant written on our heats. The blood of Christ covers our sins when we repent.


Sunday worship is just a tradition that has been passed own, not something biblical. The churches in Rome were the only ones doing Sunday worship back then and the rest of the world was still keeping the Sabbath. The council or Nicea is where they make Sunday mandatory.

We do not, I repeat do not worship Sunday. Worshipping on Sunday wasn't started to form a new tradition nor was it started to oppose the law.

bugkiller

 

[W2L]

No but I just happen to coincide with them about the issue. This is incidental and not promoting the Orthodox religion.

bugkiller

I believe you are only hurting your own stand against legalism. You cant agree that Sunday is the Lords day and still agree with Romans 14. If anything you would need to acknoewledge that Romans 14 destroys the nescesity of any holy day whatsoever. Sure paul was saying that peace is better than judging and despising each other, but that is exactly what you seem to be doing. You seem to despise SDA and MJ, while loving those who worship on Sunday. I don't see how you are promoting Pauls doctrine at all, but rather misusing it to war against your opposition.

 

[bugkiller]

God didnt have a documented process to change the day of worship because they were Jews, so Sunday was a regular working day to them. it was not a special day in which they took off to go to church.

Christ is still the center of all thoughts, but the reality is Christ didnt care about Sunday either because it was just a regular day of work in their times. He rose from the grave right after the Sabbath ended on Saturday (6-8pm ish), so a few hours into Sunday morning would have been considered the first day of the week, which would have been considered but does not equal Sunday morning at dawn.

As much as I wanted to believe Sunday worship was something biblical, there just arent many examples to justify it outside of using 2-3 verses that are of different contexts.


The problem with Saturday vs Sunday is when one crowd tries to condemn the other to hell over a day of worship.

Not quite.

bugkiller

 

[W2L]

We do not, I repeat do not worship Sunday. Worshipping on Sunday wasn't started to form a new tradition nor was it started to oppose the law.

bugkiller

You're not being honest. You cant have your cake and eat it too. The OP said sunday was instituted by God, and you agreed with her. Your whole anti legalistic argument seems like a sham to me. You seem motivated more out of dislike for MJ and SDA rather than love for Pauls doctrine that he gave with the authority of Christ.

 

[bugkiller]

You cannot add or subtract to the scriptures. The only people who can even do that is God or Jesus. There is zero scriptures if read in proper context in which the apostles went around starting Sunday churches.

-Paul meeting on a Saturday night and speaking until midnight on the 1st day of the week, meaning he spoke with them for 6 hrs, is not an example of a weekly meeting.
-The apostles gathering on a Sunday in fear of the Jews is not an example of a weekly gathering for worship.
-Collecting offering on the 1st day of the week is not an example of Sunday morning service, but rather Paul taking up a offering for the needy in Jerusalem and they couldnt conduct business on the Sabbath anyways, so that may be the reason he did the offering collection on Sunday.

What else would you call it? It wasn't a Sabbath affair because it was over.

bugkiller

 

[pilgrimage]

We do not, I repeat do not worship Sunday. Worshipping on Sunday wasn't started to form a new tradition nor was it started to oppose the law.

bugkiller

Worshipping isnoteven thepoint. When Godchanged the Sabbath go the Lord's day He signified a change in heritage from the bond to the free

 

[W2L]

Worshipping isnoteven thepoint. When Godchanged the Sabbath go the Lord's day He signified a change in heritage from the bond to the free

God didn't change anything. Hebrews 4 is not talking about Sunday. I cant understand why anyone would think he was referring to Sunday.

"Today is the day of salvation"....this is not Sunday.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Worshipping isnoteven thepoint. When Godchanged the Sabbath go the Lord's day He signified a change in heritage from the bond to the free

It's too long to go into here(due to the sheer volume/ history/ traditions opposed to Scripture), but Yhwh did not change the 7th Day Sabbath that He Himself Sanctified and made Set Apart to any other day.
Nor are the sons of disobedience "free" in any true sense (they are bound by sin and the devil).
And it is not in the Bible but only by man's tradition that any day of the week is called "the Lord's day". To call any day of the week that (and all the manmade traditions that go along with that idea) does violence to the Truth.

 

[lstnag2016]

Sorry but day of the Lord and Lord's Day are very different things.

bugkiller

You wouldn't have a verse for your assumption, didn't think so

One of the better Promise of the Brit Chadashah is that YHWH would write His Torah upon hearts of Flesh Hebrews 8:10 & Jeremiah 31:33 Psalms 119:142 by the Spirit of Truth

The Torah will be Taught to many during the Millennium Isaiah 2:3-5

Since it will be taught then, why has christendom rejected the New Covenant now?

*****

The Appointed Times ARE a shadow, not were a shadow (past tense) Colossians 2:16-17

Let no one Judge you on what you eat or drink on those days, according to the traditions of men

The Passover will be Kept during the Millennium Ezekiel 45:21 In Remembrance of Him

The Feast of Booths (Sukkot) will be Kept during the Millennium Zechariah 14:16-18

The Sabbath and New Moons will be Kept during the Millennium Isaiah 66:23

every Appointed time of YAH, Will be Done on Earth

and More Zechariah 8:19 Romans 14:6 fasting and not fasting

*****

When you abolish the Torah, you abolish

Justice Mercy and Faith

Matthew 23:23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the Torah, Judgment, Mercy, and Faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Biblical definition of a judaizer, someone that makes void the commandments by traditions

like christmas, easter, halloween etc

christianity, the mystery of iniquity

 

[bugkiller]

You're not being honest. You cant have your cake and eat it too. The OP said sunday was instituted by God, and you agreed with her. Your whole anti legalistic argument seems like a sham to me. You seem motivated more out of dislike for MJ and SDA rather than love for Pauls doctrine that he gave with the authority of Christ.

No I'm being point blank honest since you're judging me. Yes I'm well know for my position which is in opposition to the MJ and SDA false doctrine. Paul is in full support of Jeremiah 31:31-33. NTL you can say anything you like.

bugkiller

 

[W2L]

So much for sound doctrine. Hebrews 4 is (supposedly) talking about Sunday.