God changed the Sabbath

[ViaCrucis]

You posted earlier that litergy is required. Where in scripture do you find that?

Where do we find in Scripture that Christians are supposed to worship and gather together? Well, I mean, crack open your Bible to just about any random place. But perhaps the most obvious would be Hebrews 10:25.

-cryptoLutheran

 

[SAAN]

1. At no point was the Sabbath ever given as a command as a day to gather for worship. But if you have evidence to the contrary, offer it.
2. Try reading the New Testament, perhaps pay special attention to Acts 15 and Colossians 2.



Red herring, possible strawman, I haven't argued that there is a command to gather for worship on Sunday.



Irrelevant, I made no claim that there was.



Seeing as it was Christian practice to gather on the first day of the week, and this is historicaly demonstrable; and seeing as how followers of Jesus Christ were never under any compulsion to observe the Torah which had been given as part of the covenant God made with Israel on Sinai--and that it is abundantly clear throughout the New Testament that Gentile converts to Christianity were under no obligation to observe Torah; and finally seeing as how the Sabbath was not even given as a command as a day of weekly worship to the Jews you have literally nothing in your arsenal.

But let's try this again: Show me Scripture where followers of Jesus Christ are supposed to gather for worship on the Sabbath.

-CryptoLutheran

You have to read Acts 15 and Col 2 out of context, like most do in order to come to your conclusion.

All of Gods commands were to Israel. The New Covenant was to Israel and that is why you are grafted in when you are saved and not the other way around.

If a Gentile converts to Christianity was under no obligation to observe Torah, that would make them lawless and hypocrite because Torah is all they had back then.


You believe in the Trinity and say Jesus is God, so since Jesus came to do the will of the father and Jesus is God, to keep his commands you can go to the OT and see where it say to hold a holy convocation on the 7th day.

So since Jesus is God and God said to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy and to hold a holy convocation on that day, that is enough proof.

 

[W2L]

You'll note that I never said Christians could only meet once a week.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes but we are discussing how the church in scripture worshipped, and it was every day.

 

[seashale76]

Yes but we are discussing how the church in scripture worshipped, and it was every day.

Some traditions have daily services. Wonder which ones? Orthodoxy, for example, is one such...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Some also crucify Jesus every day.

 

[W2L]

No.

So you believe we must keep one day holy and live differently on that day?

 

[bugkiller]

My emphasis here is on scripture that says the Lord has changed times and seasons.

Dan 2:20-22
20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever; For wisdom and might are his.
21 And it is He that changeth times and seasons; He deposeth kings, and setteth up kings; He giveth wisdom to the wise, And knowledge to them that know understanding.
22 It is he that revealeth the deep and secret things; He knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

Mark 1:15
and saying, The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has drawn nigh; repent and believe in the glad tidings.

Luke 21:8
And he said, See that ye be not led astray, for many shall come in my name, saying, *I* am [he], and the time is drawn nigh: go ye not [therefore] after them.

Acts 1:6-7
They therefore, being come together, asked him saying, Lord, is it at this time that thou restorest the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said to them, It is not yours to know times or seasons, which the Father has placed in his own authority;​

There are many reasons to believe that it is in fact God who changed the day of worship to Sunday, It's the first day of the week that the Lord resurrected from the dead and signifies a new beginning and a new age in time, from the old covenant to the new covenant where Jesus, as the Head of the New Creation, is over that of the old creation.

Leviticus 23:10-11
10 Speak unto the children of Israel and say unto them, When ye come into the land that I give unto you, and ye reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the first-fruits of your harvest unto the priest.
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before Jehovah, to be accepted for you; on the next day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
15 And ye shall count from the morning after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave-offering, seven weeks; they shall be complete;
​

Note that the first day of the week plus the count of seven weeks brings the day to pentecost__ the birth of the church

Christ is the firstfruit of the resurrection

1 Corinthians 15:20
(But now Christ is raised from among [the] dead, first-fruits of those fallen asleep.
23 But each in his own rank: [the] first-fruits, Christ; then those that are the Christ's at his coming.​

Therefore this is the day that Jehovah has made; Let us exult and rejoice in it, because today God has begotten Him

Acts 13:33
That God has fully fulfilled this promise to us their children in raising up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, "You are My Son; this day have I begotten You.''
​

So we give Him first place in everything, even over creation because He has brought in the new creation.

Colossians 1:18
18 And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things;
​

And why we call it the Lord's day rather than the Sabbath

Revelation 1:10
I was in spirit on the Lord's Day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
​

Because He is our rest

Matthew 11:28-29
Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.​

From the Hebrew the word for sunday is Rishon and means "the former becoming the first"

The first day day of the week is called Rishon

7223. rishon ►

rishon: former, first, chief
Original Word: רִאשׁוֹן
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: rishon
Phonetic Spelling: (ree-shone')
Short Definition: first

ancestors (3), before (4), beginning (2), chief (1), chiefs (1), earlier (4), earlier things (1), first (113), first one (2), first time (1), forefathers (1), foremost (1), former (25), former ones (4), former things (6), formerly (6), front (1), old (1), older (1), one in front (1), past (1), previous (1), previously (1).


182 adjective former, first, chief (i heightened from original a, see √); — absolute ׳ר Hosea 2:19 +, שֹׁן- - Exodus 12:15 +, רִישׁוֺן Job 8:8, construct רִאשׁוֺן Job 15:7 Qr (Kt ראישון and so always Manuscript Sam. Pentateuch, see Köii. 1, 225 n); feminine רִאשֹׁנָה Judges 20:37 + (Joshua 21:10 Kt ראישנה see above); masculine plural רִאשֹׁנִים Exodus 34:1 +, feminine plural רִאשֹׁנוֺת Isaiah 41:22 +, etc.; —
1 former:

a. in time, former of two Genesis 25:25 (J), Genesis 41:20 (E), Deuteronomy 10:1,2,3,4,10; Deuteronomy 24:4, compare Hosea 2:9; Leviticus 4:21; Leviticus 9:15 (both P), Judges 20:39; 2 Kings 1:14; Haggai 2:3,9; Ezra 3:12 +; more Generally former, previous, Numbers 21:26 (JE), Micah 4:8; 2 Kings 17:34,40; Zechariah 1:4; Zechariah 7:7,12; Zechariah 8:11; Nehemiah 5:15; Eccl 17:10; Psalm 79:8 +; ׳כָּעֵת הָ ר Isaiah 8:23; ׳דִּבְרֵי דויד הָ ר 1 Chronicles 29:29 the doings of David, the former and the latter (הָאַחֲדֹנִים), compare 2 Chronicles 9:29; 12:15; 16:11; 20:34; 25:26; 26:22; 28:26; 35:27; early days of harvest 2 Samuel 21:9; רִאשֹׁנִים as substantive, former persons, ancestors, men of old, Deuteronomy 19:14; Leviticus 26:45 (H), Ecclesiastes 1:11 (opposed to אַחֲרֹנִים); (תָ)רִאשֹׁנוֺת as substantive the former things, i.e. past events Isaiah 41:22; Isaiah 43:9,18; Isaiah 46:9; Isaiah 48:3, earlier predictions Isaiah 42:9.

Very well and thoughtfully written. Thanks for some key pointers. I don't much do the prophets.

bugkiller

 

[W2L]

Some traditions have daily services. Wonder which ones? Orthodoxy, for example, is one such...

OK, now all you need do to fulfill the example left in scripture is to sell all your lands and share all things. THey didn't consider anything as their own, but they had all things in common.

 

[W2L]

Very well and thoughtfully written. Thanks for some key pointers. I don't much do the prophets.

bugkiller

Is bugkiller promoting a holy day?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So you believe we must keep one day holy and live differently on that day?

No.

 

[W2L]

O boy- we do treat every day like the Lord's day- however- we specifically meet together (worship and communion)- as per scripture- on the first day of the week- also as per scripture- in honor of the Resurrection of Christ- which occurred on a Sunday. Thanks.

Actually that's not in scripture. They met every day, even on Saturday, as the SDA often point out.

 

[seashale76]

Actually that's not in scripture. They met every day, even on Saturday, as the SDA often point out.

Earlier in the thread I posted the pertinent scriptures that talked about how they met together on the first day of the week. So, yes, it is in scripture.

 

[bugkiller]

The Day of YHWH

The LORD'S Day - John in the Spirit was given a vision of the 1000 year period (The Messianic Era) from the Tribulation until the Great White Throne, The Seventh day, The day of YHWH

Isa 2:12

For the day of YHWH of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isa 13:6

Howl ye; for the day of YHWH is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isa 13:9

Behold, the day of YHWH cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jer 46:10

For this is the day of Adonai YHWH of hosts, a day of vengeance, that He may avenge Him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for Adonai YHWH of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Eze 13:5

Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of YHWH.

Eze 30:3

For the day is near, even the day of YHWH is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Joe 1:15

Alas for the day! for the day of YHWH is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joe 2:1

Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of YHWH cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joe 2:11

And YHWH shall utter His voice before His army: for His camp is very great: for He is strong that executeth His Word: for the day of YHWH is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joe 3:14

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of YHWH is near in the valley of decision.

Amo 5:18

Woe unto you that desire the day of YHWH! to what end is it for you? the day of YHWH is darkness, and not light.

Amo 5:20

Shall not the day of YHWH be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Oba 1:15

For the day of YHWH is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

Zep 1:7

Hold thy peace at the presence of Adonai YHWH for the day of YHWH is at hand: for YHWH hath prepared a sacrifice, He hath bid His guests.

Zep 1:14

The great day of YHWH is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of YHWH the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

Zec 14:1

Behold, the day of YHWH cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

1Co 5:5

To deliver such an one unto satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Adonai YESHUA

2Co 1:14

As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Adonai YESHUA

1Th 5:2

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Adonai so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe 3:10

But the day of the Adonai will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Adonai's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

6 days - 6000 years of the kingdoms of this world

The 7th day = YHWH's day 1000 year Reign of YESHUA
Mark 2:28

Sorry but day of the Lord and Lord's Day are very different things.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

There is no where in the bible that states Jesus, in his 40 days after the Resurrection, went around starting up Sunday churches.

Acts 20:6-7
6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.

7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

-In regards to Acts 20:6 Why even mention Unleavened Bread, if it was abolished and no longer being observed, so its clear they were still keeping the same days before the cross.

-In regards to Acts 20:7 the fact that Paul met up with them and spoke til midnight shows that Paul showed up when the Sabbath ended on Saturday and spoke with them until midnight. This was a one time example and not a weekly occurrence.


1 Corinthians 16:1-2
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


- There was a famine going on in Jerusalem, so Paul was taking up an offering for them. He might have done this weekly, but this verse was not an example that everyone gathered together for a Sunday morning worship service to collect tithes and offerings.



God did not change the day of worship to Sunday, its Christianity that did and has been passing it down as truth. There is nothing wrong with going to church on Sunday, as I go on Sundays too, since there is no command against that, but lets not butcher and take scriptures out of context to try to say God did something that he never did and is nowhere found in scriptures.

Yes its true Jesus didn't go about establishing people are to worship on Sunday. By the same token there's not a single passage showing Jesus doing anything on the Sabbath after the cross.

bugkiller

 

[W2L]

Earlier in the thread I posted the pertinent scriptures that talked about how they met together on the first day of the week. So, yes, it is in scripture.

Yes its there, but there is no indication that that Sunday was anything special. Its really just taking it out of context.

I find it hard to believe that the apostle paul would work so hard to keep the Gentiles from becoming legalistic worshippers, only to establish a holy day.

 

[W2L]

No.

Ok. So what are you saying then?

 

[seashale76]

Yes its there, but there is no indication that that Sunday was anything special. Its really just taking it out of context.

I find it hard to believe that the apostle paul would work so hard to keep the Gentiles from becoming legalistic worshippers, only to establish a holy day.

Pointing out that the scriptures mention what they specifically did is taking things out of context? I think not. Also, it's not legalism in any fashion. I find it really odd that people are very much about only searching the scriptures until the scriptures disagree with their preconceived notions- also while forgetting that the Church was up and running before said scriptures were written and compiled. The Christianity that gave you those scriptures was and is liturgical.

 

[W2L]

Pointing out that the scriptures mention what they specifically did is taking things out of context? I think not. Also, it's not legalism in any fashion. I find it really odd that people are very much about only searching the scriptures until the scriptures disagree with their preconceived notions- also while forgetting that the Church was up and running before said scriptures were written and compiled. The Christianity that gave you those scriptures was and is liturgical.

They met every day. You are saying that because the disciples were holed up inside the temple out of fear of the jews, on Sunday, that this proves Sunday was the Lords day? Of course the Jews did that on Sunday, they were busy resting on the previous day, Saturday, so they came out on Sunday to harass the free Christians. That's why it was on the first day. Paul collected money on the first day of the week as well. This really doesn't prove anything.

I'm more inclined to believe that paul wouldn't institute any holy days, not after rebuking the Galatians for such, and not after writing Romans 14. It just doesn't add up.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No ungodly traditions (not any manmade, nor demon sourced).
Rather, as Jesus said "Follow Me(Jesus)", not man, not traditions, not demons.
Jesus IS ALIVE.
As Jesus says "I AM THE SHEPHERD"
As Jesus says "My Sheep Hear My Voice"
As Jesus says "and FOLLOW ME(The Shepherd)"
(not follow strangers; not follow bad men)
as written in
Colossians 2:
6 Therefore,
just as you accepted Messiah Yahshua our Master,
so you must be led by Him,
7 being rooted and being built up in
Him, and being confirmed in the faith, even as you were taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
8 Watch that there not be one misleading you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men,
according to the elements of the world, and not according to Messiah.

 

[bugkiller]

Daniel 7:25-26 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

This is not speaking favorably at all about the one who would try to change the times and the law and should actually be a warning against following someone who tries to do that.



Changing the seasons is not the same thing as changing the times that God has appointed in His law. The Bible talks in a number of places about God's law and appointed times being eternal, which is not something subject to change.



Talking about something drawing near or about when something will happen is not at all the same as saying that God changes his eternal law.



The Feast of Firstfruits is a yearly event, so why would it signify a change in a weekly event? Furthermore, why is it then that most Christians don't keep the Feast of Firstfruits? You can celebrate Messiah's resurrection as often or as infrequently as you like, but it is one thing to optionally follow a man-made tradition and another to say that obedience to your tradition removes the need to obey God's command.



Note that Israel is referred to as church in the OT, so was not born on Pentecost. The Bible prophecies the rebuilty of David's tents (Amos 9:11).



The Day of the Lord has a specific meaning in Jewish eschatology that refers to the day that he was seeing in his vision, not the day of the week on which he happened to have his vision.

​

Jesus was referencing this passage:

Jeremiah 6:16-19 Thus says the Lord: “Stand by the roads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ 17 I set watchmen over you, saying, ‘Pay attention to the sound of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We will not pay attention.’ 18 Therefore hear, O nations, and know, O congregation, what will happen to them. 19 Hear, O earth; behold, I am bringing disaster upon this people, the fruit of their devices, because they have not paid attention to my words; and as for my law, they have rejected it.

Will you walk in the good way where you will find rest for your soul in accordance with God's law or will you reject it in favor of keeping your own traditions? Jesus was very critical of those who set aside the commands of God to follow their own traditions (Mark 7:6-13).



Rishon does not refer to the Sabbath, but to transitioning from the 7th day back to the 1st day.

You know I still love my argument about Jer 31:31-33. It fits right in with the OP very well. The reason I've never bothered with more argument is because those on the opposite side of the fence on this issue refuse to accept and believe Jeremiah or even Moses for that matter.

bugkiller