God cannot be all-mighty

[IfIonlyhadabrain]

Think about this a different way. Alow your mind to leave the tiny box that it is in, then alow it out of the box that that one is in.

Umm... ok...

Now your getting close to understanding the laws of the universe that our brains are far to small to understand, ie the understanding of God.

Are you equating the summation of the laws of the universe with God? That sounds like you're limiting God to me. Or do you not mean the next part where you say that He is not limited by any laws?

Now that we are thinking a little more openly. If God is almighty a paradox does not effect him in the least, he is not limmited by any laws if he could not combat the paradox you have constructed for him then he would not be almighty so even by saying it is there proves even more that he is alpwerfull.

What paradox have I constructed for Him? Firstly, God is entirely non-contradictory. To say that something is self-contradictory is to say that it does not exist, since that which is self-contradictory is nonsensical and has no meaning. Since the smallest bit of reality is merely information, all things must then be informative, and hold meaning. To be self-contradictory is to be non-existent. I do not hold that God is self-contradictory, and I have not built a paradox for Him.

Secondly, a paradox is merely an "apparent contradiction" and not an actual contradiction. Thus, even if God is paradoxical, it does not necessarily mean that He is self-contradictory. That anyone says God is paradoxical doesn't prove He is almighty. It just means that people don't understand what appears to be contradictory.

Thirdly, I really don't know what you're saying all of this to me for, you clearly support the idea that God is almighty, and so do I. I have defended the omnipotence of God here already, perhaps you should read a little more of the thread.

 

[IfIonlyhadabrain]

Let me take another attempt to clear up this confusion about causation.

If foreknowledge doesn’t cause an event, then it won’t be caused by a particular instance of cause.

So one causal relation is such:
X implies Y
X is the reason for Y
Y is actual.

For example: I have a tummy ake (actual). Eating dessert before dinner gives me a tummy ake (implication). The reason for my tummy ake is I ate dessert before dinner (reason).

In your argument it is clear that you hold foreknowledge implies the event, and the event is actual. So in order for X not to cause Y, X must not be the reason for Y. If X isn’t the reason for Y, how does X limit our free will?

Let me just make a comment on this. In your example, you show how a hypothetical event causes an effect. The effect is actual because the hypothetical event took place. However, this says nothing concerning the role of knowledge in the affair.

What I mean by this is:

1. Eating before dinner gives me a stomach ache.
2. I know that eating before dinner will me a stomach ache.
3. I ate before dinner.
4. I have a stomach ache.

1. X causes Y.
2. Z implies X causes Y.
3. X.
4. Y.

The implication of my knowledge has no bearing on the cause of my stomach ache, except that despite that knowledge I chose to eat before dinner anyway. The ultimate cause of my stomach ache is my choice to eat before dinner, since eating before dinner is caused by my choice.

In the same way does the implication of God's knowledge have no bearing on the choices that we make, more particularly since His knowledge isn't even my knowledge. Knowledge, purely and merely, does not necessarily have causal effect on will (ie, instinct or natural desire). It can, yes, but does not necessarily. Neither knowledge of the past and present, nor knowledge of the future.

 

[DeepThinker]

Umm... ok...



Are you equating the summation of the laws of the universe with God? That sounds like you're limiting God to me. Or do you not mean the next part where you say that He is not limited by any laws?



What paradox have I constructed for Him? Firstly, God is entirely non-contradictory. To say that something is self-contradictory is to say that it does not exist, since that which is self-contradictory is nonsensical and has no meaning. Since the smallest bit of reality is merely information, all things must then be informative, and hold meaning. To be self-contradictory is to be non-existent. I do not hold that God is self-contradictory, and I have not built a paradox for Him.

Secondly, a paradox is merely an "apparent contradiction" and not an actual contradiction. Thus, even if God is paradoxical, it does not necessarily mean that He is self-contradictory. That anyone says God is paradoxical doesn't prove He is almighty. It just means that people don't understand what appears to be contradictory.

Thirdly, I really don't know what you're saying all of this to me for, you clearly support the idea that God is almighty, and so do I. I have defended the omnipotence of God here already, perhaps you should read a little more of the thread.

Wooops sorry quoted the wrong person, should have been more carefull, ill repost

 

[DeepThinker]

I have allready discuss this in the "Why is there evil in the world" thread, but I feel I have to place this issue with the right lable on it. In the former thread we didn't come to an agreement about how God can be all mighty and humans still have a free will (please read that post and argue it here). I really want a conclution to this.

Another reason why God cannot be all mighty. God has known the future since he created the universe. If he now, 13.7 billion years later dessides to change something, the knowledge he had at the beginning of the universe about the future (which God changed) would be wrong, right? So if he dessided at the beginning of the universe how the future will be, he does not have to power to change it. So either his knowledge will be wrong (he not beeing all mighty) or he does not have the power to change anything (he not beeing allmighty).

Think about this a different way. Alow your mind to leave the tiny box that it is in, then alow it out of the box that that one is in. Now your getting close to understanding the laws of the universe that our brains are far to small to understand, ie the understanding of God. Now that we are thinking a little more openly. If God is almighty a paradox does not effect him in the least, he is not limmited by any laws if he could not combat the paradox you have constructed for him then he would not be almighty so even by saying it is there proves even more that he is alpwerfull.

 

[Mortensen]

Im thinking here. What is making us choose what we choose? We look apon the alternatives and choose what we think is right. The alternatives is made by the invirement wich again is made by peoples choices. This is hard to explain, but lets take Adam and Eve. Their invirement was made by God, nothing else had interfered. So they looked at the invirement and at the alternatives and made their choices. So Adam and Eves choices are actually made from God. He is allmighty so he will know what inpackt the invirement he created would have and there fore knowing what they will choose. It is the same today, but here the invirement is changed by peoples choices and this goes back until Adam and Eve or back to where there has been noone interfiering with the invirement. I hope you understand

Another thing I wonder. If God wanted to forgive the poeple. Why did he have to punish himselves (jesus) to do it?

 

[DeepThinker]

Im thinking here. What is making us choose what we choose? We look apon the alternatives and choose what we think is right. The alternatives is made by the invirement wich again is made by peoples choices. This is hard to explain, but lets take Adam and Eve. Their invirement was made by God, nothing else had interfered. So they looked at the invirement and at the alternatives and made their choices. So Adam and Eves choices are actually made from God. He is allmighty so he will know what inpackt the invirement he created would have and there fore knowing what they will choose. It is the same today, but here the invirement is changed by peoples choices and this goes back until Adam and Eve or back to where there has been noone interfiering with the invirement. I hope you understand

Another thing I wonder. If God wanted to forgive the poeple. Why did he have to punish himselves (jesus) to do it?

Im thinking here. What is making us choose what we choose? We look apon the alternatives and choose what we think is right. The alternatives is made by the invirement wich again is made by peoples choices. This is hard to explain, but lets take Adam and Eve. Their invirement was made by God, nothing else had interfered. So they looked at the invirement and at the alternatives and made their choices. So Adam and Eves choices are actually made from God. He is allmighty so he will know what inpackt the invirement he created would have and there fore knowing what they will choose. It is the same today, but here the invirement is changed by peoples choices and this goes back until Adam and Eve or back to where there has been noone interfiering with the invirement. I hope you understand

Another thing I wonder. If God wanted to forgive the poeple. Why did he have to punish himselves (jesus) to do it?

This is refering to the argument that God knows everything so why does he let us suffer am I right?

My thoughts are this, if we are refering to the Bible, it also says he gave us free will, that means though he may know everything he might not like it, its our choice not his.

The point about Jesus is that he did not punish himself we did, I dont fully understand why he needed to take this root to forgive us, but I assume its got something to do with us killing his own son and being forgiven, I personally think it was more a gesture that he will forgive us, rather than the actual act had some sort of divine power within it itself, I could be wrong of course.

 

[Mortensen]

But God dessided how to make the universe and our planet. And he knew what effect the invirement would have on Adam and Eve so how can you say that it is not he that inderectly makes their choice. If I am God and creates a world with potatoes and sweets, adam and eve would choose to eat sweets simply because they taste better. So indirectly, I choose what they will choose.

 

[DeepThinker]

But God dessided how to make the universe and our planet. And he knew what effect the invirement would have on Adam and Eve so how can you say that it is not he that inderectly makes their choice. If I am God and creates a world with potatoes and sweets, adam and eve would choose to eat sweets simply because they taste better. So indirectly, I choose what they will choose.

No he still gives them the choice, (I dont belive in adam and eve anyway, seems a little silly to me) if like you say god gave them the choice of potatoes and sweets they would choose sweets, but if he said here are some sweets and some potatoes, DONT EAT THE SWEETS, then its up to them if they want to defy him

 

[Mortensen]

But God allready know that they would eat the sweets. He knows it even before he created their invirement. Yes, they choose, but they only choose one of the options God gave them. They look at the invirement and draw a conclution. They use God's warning as an aspect, still thinking that the sweets taste really good and they choose to eat it. God knows this! He knew it all from the start. We humans are just programs, playing with the toys we were given from God. Adam and Even was just an example of the first choices made from a pure God-made envirement.

 

[DeepThinker]

But God allready know that they would eat the sweets. He knows it even before he created their invirement. Yes, they choose, but they only choose one of the options God gave them. They look at the invirement and draw a conclution. They use God's warning as an aspect, still thinking that the sweets taste really good and they choose to eat it. God knows this! He knew it all from the start. We humans are just programs, playing with the toys we were given from God. Adam and Even was just an example of the first choices made from a pure God-made envirement.

Yep God knew they would eat the sweets, but he did not make them do it, its still their own choice. (looking over these posts it is beggining to make me feel rather silly about the example we are using... never mind I like silly )

 

[Mortensen]

But if he skipped the potatoes, how can he blame us for choosing the sweets? Its how he made us, we have to eat. I hope you understand now that the choises we make is based on how we are made (made from god) and which alternatives we have (made from god) so do you still not agree that even if it is our choise, god is "making" us choose what he wants? Because it is him that dessided how our invirement is going to be...

 

[DeepThinker]

But if he skipped the potatoes, how can he blame us for choosing the sweets? Its how he made us, we have to eat. I hope you understand now that the choises we make is based on how we are made (made from god) and which alternatives we have (made from god) so do you still not agree that even if it is our choise, god is "making" us choose what he wants? Because it is him that dessided how our invirement is going to be...

But he did not skip the potatoes, or in real terms, there were other things to eat in the Garden of eden other than the forbiden fruit, we do have free will thats the point. If we could choose only one thing you would have a point

 

[Mortensen]

Okay... yes we have free will, but God has made the world in a way that makes us choose the way we do. Do you dissagree?

 

[DeepThinker]

Okay... yes we have free will, but God has made the world in a way that makes us choose the way we do. Do you dissagree?

Yeah I guess I do dissagree, I think free will means just that, free will, he gives us choices its true and he does know what we are going to do, thats why I belive he has a divine plan, but at the end of the day the decission is ours, he justs orcastrates the decisions that we make to follow that plan. Its not him deciding for us

 

[Mortensen]

If i put two types of food to my cat. He will choose the food he like best. He makes the choise, but I know what he will choose. How can you say that it is not me, indirectly choosing for him?

 

[DeepThinker]

If i put two types of food to my cat. He will choose the food he like best. He makes the choise, but I know what he will choose. How can you say that it is not me, indirectly choosing for him?

Because he chose it not you, its his choice not yours, knowing that someone is going to do something does not mean you chose them to do it.

 

[elman]

Okay... yes we have free will, but God has made the world in a way that makes us choose the way we do. Do you dissagree?

I disagree. You may convince yourself the world makes you chose as you do but I know better and society knows better and if you chose to hurt someone society will hold you responsible as well they should. You are responsible for your own decisions and blaming it on the world is avoiding your own responsiblity for your own decisions.

 

[Mortensen]

Yes its our choice, I agree with that. But what reason is it to choose what we choose?

 

[elman]

Yes its our choice, I agree with that. But what reason is it to choose what we choose?

There are always lots of reasons, seldom just one and many of the reasons we are unaware of what they are.

 

[Mortensen]

There are always lots of reasons, seldom just one and many of the reasons we are unaware of what they are

I need someone else to explain this... I cant do it, but Ill give it another shot.

When we are about to make a choise, we look apon the alternatives. We think and do the choise that we think is the best one to make at that time. It is all about how we are dessigned to think and about the alternatives we have that dessides what we will choose, nothing else. Both how we think and the alternatives is dessided by other peoples choises (for example how you parents raised you). This goes back to where the invirement is not dessided to other peoples choises, but by God.