God cannot be all-mighty

[elman]

I need someone else to explain this... I cant do it, but Ill give it another shot.

When we are about to make a choise, we look apon the alternatives. We think and do the choise that we think is the best one to make at that time. It is all about how we are dessigned to think and about the alternatives we have that dessides what we will choose, nothing else. Both how we think and the alternatives is dessided by other peoples choises (for example how you parents raised you). This goes back to where the invirement is not dessided to other peoples choises, but by God.

We don't always chose what we think is best. We sometimes chose what feels good even when we know it is not best. We are not designed to be robots and we are not robots. Your enviornment influences you, but it does not control your and the way your parents raised you are influencial but not contoling. Some of the environment is our own making, not God's.

 

[Mortensen]

You don't listen and Im not so sure I want to explain one more time... :S

As I said, the envirement is made by other peoples choises! And we do choose what we think is best. What is the best sollution, whatever, it is irrelevant. Yes, we are robots. We do the things we are made to do, roughly said. How you are raised, how you grew up, all of that shapes you to tolerate situations your own way. You look at the situation in your own way (so people would choose diffrently in same situation) and draw a conclution by evaluete the possible outcomes of the situation. So we choose, as I said, based on how we are and what the situation is.

 

[elman]

You don't listen and Im not so sure I want to explain one more time... :S

As I said, the envirement is made by other peoples choises! And we do choose what we think is best. What is the best sollution, whatever, it is irrelevant. Yes, we are robots. We do the things we are made to do, roughly said. How you are raised, how you grew up, all of that shapes you to tolerate situations your own way. You look at the situation in your own way (so people would choose diffrently in same situation) and draw a conclution by evaluete the possible outcomes of the situation. So we choose, as I said, based on how we are and what the situation is.

I am listening. You are just incorrect. The enviroment is made up of many things including our own choices and other people's choices. We are not robots. That is simply not true. People chose against the way they were raised and in spite of their environment all the time.

 

[Mortensen]

I am listening. You are just incorrect. The enviroment is made up of many things including our own choices and other people's choices. We are not robots. That is simply not true. People chose against the way they were raised and in spite of their environment all the time.

So what do you think is the reason for choosing what we choose?

 

[DeepThinker]

So what do you think is the reason for choosing what we choose?

There is no one reason, (most of the time) its a multitude of factors or "stressors" as psychologists tend to call them (they did when I studied it at least) some of these come from the person choosing, some from others around them and finally from environmental factors.( by which I mean everything that does not involve people directly)

 

[Mortensen]

There is no one reason, (most of the time) its a multitude of factors or "stressors" as psychologists tend to call them (they did when I studied it at least) some of these come from the person choosing, some from others around them and finally from environmental factors.( by which I mean everything that does not involve people directly)

Thank you! I just didn't say it so proffesionally

Do you see where Im getting at DeepThinker?

 

[DeepThinker]

Thank you! I just didn't say it so proffesionally

Do you see where Im getting at DeepThinker?

I'm not sure I would not like to hazard a guess, from what I can see none of this disproves the fact that God is almighty

 

[DeepThinker]

I'm not sure I would not like to hazard a guess, from what I can see none of this disproves the fact that God is almighty

ooops should not realy say fact in a philosophy forum my bad, but you know what I mean

 

[elman]

So what do you think is the reason for choosing what we choose?

As I have already said there are ususlly many reasons and we don't always know what all influenced our decisions, but that does not logically take us to a conclusion that we are not part of the chosing process and that our choices are forced on us by our envioronment.

 

[Mortensen]

No, the invirement does not force us to take conclution, we do it our selves, but based on the envirement. If you change the invirement, the choise would be different. I really have no other way of saying this and you still don't know where Im getting at. Isnt there another atheist here that know what I mean and could explain it better?

 

[DeepThinker]

No, the invirement does not force us to take conclution, we do it our selves, but based on the envirement. If you change the invirement, the choise would be different. I really have no other way of saying this and you still don't know where Im getting at. Isnt there another atheist here that know what I mean and could explain it better?

Ahh right, I get ya, but there are 3 types of stressors I showed, only one of them could be considered "an act of God"

 

[Mortensen]

stressors?

 

[elman]

No, the invirement does not force us to take conclution, we do it our selves, but based on the envirement. If you change the invirement, the choise would be different. I really have no other way of saying this and you still don't know where Im getting at. Isnt there another atheist here that know what I mean and could explain it better?

I know what you are getting at. I just don't believe we are unable to make our own choice or have any input into our choices. To be the prisioner of our envioronment is not emperically consistent with the world I observe.

 

[DeepThinker]

stressors?

Yeah I explained earlier sorry if you missed it. A stressor is a psychological term, its basically something that reacts with the brain to make it do cirtain things, if I remember right they come from 3 things:
1.Personal stressors; such as axiety disorders, being hungry anything like that, 2. Relationship stressors; such as seeing a big guy with a flick knife walking towards you, or being asked by a guy in a doctors jacet to do something you dont want to. 3. Environmental stressors, which could be anything from hevey rainfall to standing on top a high building.
(sorry to any psychologists I realise I'm not using the correct terms but if you object I'll find the exact terms for you, just means I have to get up and look in a book thats upstairs )
Normally these stressors obviously interact with each other and sometimes they cross over. eg a motorway full of cars could be both 2 and 3 (and 1 if you were scared of cars for example)

 

[elman]

Yeah I explained earlier sorry if you missed it. A stressor is a psychological term, its basically something that reacts with the brain to make it do cirtain things, if I remember right they come from 3 things:
1.Personal stressors; such as axiety disorders, being hungry anything like that, 2. Relationship stressors; such as seeing a big guy with a flick knife walking towards you, or being asked by a guy in a doctors jacet to do something you dont want to. 3. Environmental stressors, which could be anything from hevey rainfall to standing on top a high building.
(sorry to any psychologists I realise I'm not using the correct terms but if you object I'll find the exact terms for you, just means I have to get up and look in a book thats upstairs )
Normally these stressors obviously interact with each other and sometimes they cross over. eg a motorway full of cars could be both 2 and 3 (and 1 if you were scared of cars for example)

I understand consciousness is not explainable by simply pointing to the brain or ways in which our body communicates with the brain. I don't think science understands what consciousness is or what makes it happen.

 

[DeepThinker]

I understand consciousness is not explainable by simply pointing to the brain or ways in which our body communicates with the brain. I don't think science understands what consciousness is or what makes it happen.

Absolutely correct!
Even science does not have a leg to stand on when it comes to explaining the working of the human mind, its one of the first things I learnt when I studied it, however that does not mean psychology is useless, it has alot of thories and is a little like philosophy of the human brain, I agree science cannot explain consciousness fully, but studies show that something that acts on the brain ie a "stressor" does show a change in our behaviour, though you cannot expect everyone to act the same, the change IS there and patterns DO emerge.

 

[Mortensen]

Even science does not have a leg to stand on when it comes to explaining the working of the human mind

Its coming... Science have figured out alot, but there is still more to go

I know what you are getting at. I just don't believe we are unable to make our own choice or have any input into our choices. To be the prisioner of our envioronment is not emperically consistent with the world I observe.

Call ut what you want but it is how we think, and how the invirement is that make us do the choises we do. Two factors. So you kind of are a prisioner to these factors and both of them are made by god through man.

 

[IfIonlyhadabrain]

Human will is not perfectly free. It is free nonetheless. It can be influenced, it can be guided. Yet, when it comes right down to it, it's really all about what we choose. Do we choose to be influenced, most of us do. Do we choose to act within the construct of the realities we consider to be set and unchangable? Most of us do. We choose it. Human will is not perfectly free, but it is free nonetheless.

Quantum physics and modern neurobiology suggest that we have a lot more freedom than common physics and developmental and practical psychologies imply.

 

[Mortensen]

Human will is not perfectly free. It is free nonetheless. It can be influenced, it can be guided. Yet, when it comes right down to it, it's really all about what we choose. Do we choose to be influenced, most of us do. Do we choose to act within the construct of the realities we consider to be set and unchangable? Most of us do. We choose it. Human will is not perfectly free, but it is free nonetheless.

Quantum physics and modern neurobiology suggest that we have a lot more freedom than common physics and developmental and practical psychologies imply.

The point I am trying to make is that when the first choises were made from a "un-touched" envirement (the invirement that was created by god, not influenced by humans or animals) was known by God. He created the planet that way, knowing what effect it would have on our choises and even knowing the choises we would make! So how can it be our fault when we sin? He made the world, he made humans, he understand the human mind, understand how it works, how it will choose, how the invirement works on them, how the evaluate. And still he makes an invirement that makes us choose what we choose.

 

[IfIonlyhadabrain]

If the environment "made us choose what we choose" then we wouldn't be guilty of anything. Only the free of will can be guilty in action. The first sin was a freely chosen action, not an environmentally induced one.