God cannot be all-mighty

[DeepThinker]

The point I am trying to make is that when the first choises were made from a "un-touched" envirement (the invirement that was created by god, not influenced by humans or animals) was known by God. He created the planet that way, knowing what effect it would have on our choises and even knowing the choises we would make! So how can it be our fault when we sin? He made the world, he made humans, he understand the human mind, understand how it works, how it will choose, how the invirement works on them, how the evaluate. And still he makes an invirement that makes us choose what we choose.

I see what your saying but it does not make sence for one simple reason, if God gave us free will, which he says that he did, and if God cannot lie, beacause his word and the truth are one in the same, then he DID give us free will, he did not pretend to give it to us, he could not, it would be a lie, therefore it is our choice, you are assuming that free will is not our choice, the brain is more complex than you think, it is not the only path the brain can take, it is our choice, God does not choose for us, though he may know what choice we will make it is not always his choice that that is the road we will take, there is a difference.

We are off subject though, there is a separate thread for this.

 

[Mortensen]

If the environment "made us choose what we choose" then we wouldn't be guilty of anything. Only the free of will can be guilty in action. The first sin was a freely chosen action, not an environmentally induced one.

Then what caused the first sin? What made Adam and Eve sin?

 

[DeepThinker]

Then what caused the first sin? What made Adam and Eve sin?

We are still off subject, please can we get back to the point

 

[Mortensen]

e are still off subject, please can we get back to the point

We are off topic yes but do I have to make a new thread to point this out? I mean... it has already been discussed here (about free will and gods forknowledge)

 

[DeepThinker]

We are off topic yes but do I have to make a new thread to point this out? I mean... it has already been discussed here (about free will and gods forknowledge)

Its just that I belive there is already a thread discussing this, and I dont see its relevance to the question of Gods power... if you can relate it in someway thats fine

 

[elman]

Human will is not perfectly free. It is free nonetheless. It can be influenced, it can be guided. Yet, when it comes right down to it, it's really all about what we choose. Do we choose to be influenced, most of us do. Do we choose to act within the construct of the realities we consider to be set and unchangable? Most of us do. We choose it. Human will is not perfectly free, but it is free nonetheless.

Quantum physics and modern neurobiology suggest that we have a lot more freedom than common physics and developmental and practical psychologies imply.

Good post.

 

[Im_A]

Its just that I belive there is already a thread discussing this, and I dont see its relevance to the question of Gods power... if you can relate it in someway thats fine

the best way i can see it relating is, if God is omnipotent, why would He give free-will to humanity, cause His attribute of omniscience would have had to tell God, these human beings would fail, thus leading God to send Christ His Son, and i think the point is question begging...how is God omnipotent when He could have stopped it all?

Mortensen correct me if i'm wrong if this isn't your point.

 

[DeepThinker]

the best way i can see it relating is, if God is omnipotent, why would He give free-will to humanity, cause His attribute of omniscience would have had to tell God, these human beings would fail, thus leading God to send Christ His Son, and i think the point is question begging...how is God omnipotent when He could have stopped it all?

Mortensen correct me if i'm wrong if this isn't your point.

hmmm, well untill we can see the bigger picture we will never know, but my view is that God has a plan, if you dont understand that plan that does not mean it is not there and that it is not the best way to achieve what he wanted, you cannot Justify or bring doubt to somones actions (including God) untill you know the reason they are doing it, this we will not know untill the end of time when this becomes apparent, or untill we die when he tells us, or if the atheists are right we will never know because their was not one, but this is irrellevent as you wont know one way or the other.

 

[elman]

the best way i can see it relating is, if God is omnipotent, why would He give free-will to humanity, cause His attribute of omniscience would have had to tell God, these human beings would fail, thus leading God to send Christ His Son, and i think the point is question begging...how is God omnipotent when He could have stopped it all?

Mortensen correct me if i'm wrong if this isn't your point.

Yes God could have stopped it all and not created any of us and then none of us would be loving creations. Thus God in His omipotence and omnisience knew the only way to the bottom line was for us to be created as we have been.

 

[RatzingerRocks]

I have allready discuss this in the "Why is there evil in the world" thread, but I feel I have to place this issue with the right lable on it. In the former thread we didn't come to an agreement about how God can be all mighty and humans still have a free will (please read that post and argue it here). I really want a conclution to this.

Another reason why God cannot be all mighty. God has known the future since he created the universe. If he now, 13.7 billion years later dessides to change something, the knowledge he had at the beginning of the universe about the future (which God changed) would be wrong, right? So if he dessided at the beginning of the universe how the future will be, he does not have to power to change it. So either his knowledge will be wrong (he not beeing all mighty) or he does not have the power to change anything (he not beeing allmighty).

First you seem to confuse Omnipotance with Omnisciance, then you apply linear principles to a non linear being, and then finially you seem to (albeit indirectly) deire that God simotainiously deney and grant free will.

I would recomend "Introduction to Christainity" by Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Im_A]

Yes God could have stopped it all and not created any of us and then none of us would be loving creations. Thus God in His omipotence and omnisience knew the only way to the bottom line was for us to be created as we have been.

i'm not trying to argue against God's all mightiness. i was just trying to relate what Mortenson was saying into the thread. he hasn't corrected me yet, so i that may have been part of his point, maybe not (and if it wasn't i still apologize for getting the wrong idea Mortenson.)

i find myself along with what Deepthinker said. there's no one way to really know, especially in regards to a Divine Being, a being who's characteristics in all the mythologies and religions show that He/She/It transcends human understanding.

i admit, that the critical side has a valid reasoning for questioning it. and the opposing side to the criticism of God's all-mightiness is only a reasoning through faith and deductions, which are only speculation anyways, which again is valid in my eyes. cause they both show the point that neither one side can really know, so it is left to the person to make the desicion on what they believe. through faith, we can believe that God is all-mighty, through lack of faith, maybe we can come to either of the conclusions.

 

[rosie2220]

Going back to the original post... You seem to define free will as unpredictability, assuming that if the outcome of a decision is known before the decision itself is made, that decision cannot be the result of free will or, in the case of God, omnipotence. I presume the essence of your argument is that, firstly, God can and will change events happening around us, secondly that if He is omniscient, He ought to to see the future exactly as it is from the beginning of time, including any changes He makes, and thirdly, that it would not appear to make sense for Him to see any changes He would make in the future without changing them (at the beginning of time) as a result of this knowledge. There are a number of ways to counter this argument. For example, God may see the future, including the changes He will later make to resolve some of the imperfections of the world, and yet it does not necessarily follow that these changes ought to be made at the beginning of time.The changes may have been rendered necessary by a particular sequence of events and thus there could be a reason for God not making all his desired changes at the beginning of time. In this way, God can see the future without altering his omnipotence. You could also use the analogy of deliberating over a a decision. Though you may know what decision you will make, as a result of your deliberation over the question, before actively making your decision known, it does not follow that you never had any choice about your decision. Alternatively, if God sees all the imperfections of the world and changes everything such that we have a perfect world at the beginning of time, He will have no desire to make further changes and yet would still be omnipotent. Power is the ability to do something rather than the act of doing something.
To argue that because God has prior knowledge of His actions, he cannot be omnipotent does not make sense at all. Knowledge has no effect on external events and besides, if God makes all decisions and plans the use of his power at the beginning of time, does this diminish his power in any way? One would not argue that because a ruler had planned his policies at the beginning of his reign, he no longer had any power.

 

[elman]

Going back to the original post... You seem to define free will as unpredictability, assuming that if the outcome of a decision is known before the decision itself is made, that decision cannot be the result of free will or, in the case of God, omnipotence. I presume the essence of your argument is that, firstly, God can and will change events happening around us, secondly that if He is omniscient, He ought to to see the future exactly as it is from the beginning of time, including any changes He makes, and thirdly, that it would not appear to make sense for Him to see any changes He would make in the future without changing them (at the beginning of time) as a result of this knowledge. There are a number of ways to counter this argument. For example, God may see the future, including the changes He will later make to resolve some of the imperfections of the world, and yet it does not necessarily follow that these changes ought to be made at the beginning of time.The changes may have been rendered necessary by a particular sequence of events and thus there could be a reason for God not making all his desired changes at the beginning of time. In this way, God can see the future without altering his omnipotence. You could also use the analogy of deliberating over a a decision. Though you may know what decision you will make, as a result of your deliberation over the question, before actively making your decision known, it does not follow that you never had any choice about your decision. Alternatively, if God sees all the imperfections of the world and changes everything such that we have a perfect world at the beginning of time, He will have no desire to make further changes and yet would still be omnipotent. Power is the ability to do something rather than the act of doing something.
To argue that because God has prior knowledge of His actions, he cannot be omnipotent does not make sense at all. Knowledge has no effect on external events and besides, if God makes all decisions and plans the use of his power at the beginning of time, does this diminish his power in any way? One would not argue that because a ruler had planned his policies at the beginning of his reign, he no longer had any power.

I don't think God made any mistakes so He does not have to correct anything. God is able to create us with the ability to chose to love or not love and He is able to at the same time know what we are going to do. I see no problem with His omnipotence or omniscience and His having delegated to us the ability to make our own choices.