Clizby WampusCat

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Based on my reading of your posts, I believe you accept logic and reason as being valid for creating arguments that point towards the existence of God. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
I am open to all evidence but reason and logic are the best tools to use for truth.

Do you also believe that truth exists and can be known? I expect that you do but would like it confirmed as it means I do not need to prove it.
Truth exists, if it can be known or not is not up to me. There probably are truth we can never know for some reasons but generally if God exists and manifests himself in our reality we should be able to detect that.

I expect you would also agree with the statement: IF the existence of God is true (agreeing with the conclusion based on the unproven premise of God's existence is no agreement of the premise on your part) then there will be sufficient evidence to show that the existence of God is reasonable, rational and knowable. Do you agree?
I believe it is likely there should be enough evidence to believe God exists if he manifests himself in our reality.
 
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Paul.

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I believe it is likely there should be enough evidence to believe God exists if he manifests himself in our reality.
What sort of burden of proof would constitute enough evidence? On the balance of probability? Beyond reasonable doubt? Or some other standard?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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What sort of burden of proof would constitute enough evidence? On the balance of probability? Beyond reasonable doubt? Or some other standard?
I have no idea. Enough evidence to convince me. On the basis of probability, no, that is unreliable. Reasonable doubt, maybe, what do you mean by that?
 
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BigV

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Simplest explanation; It's not that God CANNOT be in the presence of sin--more that he really, really hates sin to the point where he would never allow it in his primary place of dwelling.

As for why we cannot enter heaven/God's dwelling place/etc without being sin-free, it's for the same reason why you don't allow weeds to coexist with flowers in your garden.

Hold on, God is the one who design the world with the possibility of sin. And he knew that people will sin, so how can he hate the sin?

Secondly, God's "plan" made the sin worse. If you read Numbers 15, you will find a story about a man gathering sticks on a Saturday. God's response to the man gathering sticks? To order killing him by stoning him to death. In the example of killing the man, God is directly responsible for the act of killing him. What is God doing ordering such senseless taking of life? Couldn't God create some other form of punishment, such as 200 pushups?

Lastly, God created Hell, which is (mainstream Christian view) an eternal punishment, where people will be tortured to death. God too was directly involved in this design.

Seems to me, God is perfectly content in the presence of 'sin'.
 
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miknik5

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Your right you did. I believe you had an experience. I am not convinced you had an experience with a god.

Ok, can you support this with evidence?
With the bible and HIS WORD, or with those CHRISTIANS who give you their testimony, just as I have?
 
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miknik5

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I am going to ask you the same question I asked hedrick.

Why should I believe your interpretation of what the bible says over another Christians interpretation?
There is only ONE TESTIMONY. If anyone gives you something different, don´t believe them
 
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miknik5

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I never said anything about punishment. I showed that God requires a sacrifice to forgive sins.
HE gave the sacrifice for sins...there is nothing else for man to do but to believe GOD´S TESTIMONY which HE has given of HIS SON...
 
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miknik5

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Thanks for writing this. I know you believe this but before I respond to this I have one question.

Why should I believe your interpretation of what the bible says over another Christians interpretation?
It was the TRUE CIRCUMCISION of the COVENANT which is a mark made on the inner flesh of the heart, Clizby...and that by the hand of GOD, not by the hand of men on the outer flesh...

When those who heard The GOSPEL and believed, they were ¨Cut to the heart¨...there was an effectual change internally and at that moment that they believed...it is the revelation of the TRUTH of the GOSPEL...that it is sin which separates us from GOD and it is through CHRIST that we are washed and reconciled back to GOD because GOD provided the one and only sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins...

Those who believe are washed and marked by HIS BLOOD...to GOD, we are the aroma of CHRIST...

Remember all the old rituals...the HIGH PRIESTS had to wear special garments and had in their breast pockets, (Close to their heart) incense....

It´s all about CHRIST and when GOD looks upon those who believe in HIS SON...HE sees HIS SON´S COVERING.

This IS the WEDDING GARMENT and the ONLY GARMENT needed at THE WEDDING...
 
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miknik5

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For what it's worth, the Hermeneia commentary sees 9:15-22 as applying specifically to the covenant sacrifice and various purifications associated with it. They comment on 9:22

"According to this cultic rule it is not without blood that “remission” (ἄφεσις) occurs. Although this term may be used for various sorts of “release,” it is clear from the general context that remission of sins is involved. The absence of a reference to what is remitted may be a way of qualifying the rule, since otherwise it stands in some tension with the emphatic denials of expiatory efficacy in animals’ blood (10:4*). It is, in any case, clear from the preceding discussion that the effects of the old cult are seen to be limited and superficial." (Attridge and Koester)

The Logos commentary, however, sees 9:22 as valid for both old and new covenants.

Just how you take that consistent with 10:4, 10:8 and 11 is unclear. However in the introduction to the Hermeneia commentary, it notes that Hebrews tends to cite a number of different traditional statements that actually say different things. It's probably best to look just at the specific point the author is trying to make by the citations, because if you try to make all the details of all the statements fit together, you'll fail.

In this case he was using the OT cult as a type for Jesus' death, understood as a covenant sacrifice. Trying to turn 9:22 into a doctrinal statement on which to base a theology of the atonement is a mistake, particularly given 11 and 12.
The author was trying to show the Hebrews that CHRIST was always from the beginning...that these OT rituals were simply the shadows of what was to be fulfilled (when the fullness of time would come, that is, the body prepared from the beginning), through CHRIST...who was always GOD´S WILL and PLAN from the beginning...

Which is why Melchizadek is mentioned...because Melchizadek is simply a shadow of the HIGH PRIEST and mediator between GOD and MAN...

It is written, no one can come up the altar on ¨steps¨ lest they be found uncovered...

Steps are manmade material...no man had any input into what was the TRUE VEIL which separated the HOLY OF HOLIES between GOD and MAN...and no man can come to the altar or throne of GRACE uncovered...for it is only through CHRIST, through HIS BODY, HIS BLOOD, HIS COVERING that we have access to the FATHER...by...and here is the TRUTH...ONE SPIRIT....

CHRIST is the fullness of the invisible GOD made visible...
 
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miknik5

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Clizby, Do you think GOD was petty in offering up HIS SON as the ONLY WAY and TRUTH?

Your request for something more is why you will struggle because you have all that is needed yet you do not believe that it is sufficient.

IT IS SUFFICIENT...
 
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miknik5

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Hold on, God is the one who design the world with the possibility of sin. And he knew that people will sin, so how can he hate the sin?

Secondly, God's "plan" made the sin worse. If you read Numbers 15, you will find a story about a man gathering sticks on a Saturday. God's response to the man gathering sticks? To order killing him by stoning him to death. In the example of killing the man, God is directly responsible for the act of killing him. What is God doing ordering such senseless taking of life? Couldn't God create some other form of punishment, such as 200 pushups?

Lastly, God created Hell, which is (mainstream Christian view) an eternal punishment, where people will be tortured to death. God too was directly involved in this design.

Seems to me, God is perfectly content in the presence of 'sin'.
This is not true...GOD created one man, Adam...and what came forth from Adam would never be of his exact likeness...look, even Eve, who came directly from Adam´s body, had her own spirit bent on her own interests, wants, needs...

You, if you are a father, know that your own children will never, ever mirror your exact likeness...and no, we aren´t talking about the physical outward features...we are talking about their individual spirits.

So, even those who have not sinned, because they came forth from ëve" are tainted, sir...

and how can a GOD who already knew the day would come when one of HIS children would disobey, ensure a people called by HIS NAME? if all have sinned and fallen short of HIS PERFECT and HOLY IMAGE?

Would you choose and weigh and measure your children against your children, picking and choosing based on their level of sin or disobedience?

GOD is good, HE found a way for all who have sinned to be reconciled to HIM and be called HIS CHILDREN...and that was in, by and through HIS SON
 
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cvanwey

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This is not true...GOD created one man, Adam...and what came forth from Adam would never be of his exact likeness...look, even Eve, who came directly from Adam´s body, had her own spirit bent on her own interests, wants, needs...

You, if you are a father, know that your own children will never, ever mirror your exact likeness...and no, we aren´t talking about the physical outward features...we are talking about their individual spirits.

So, even those who have not sinned, because they came forth from ëve" are tainted, sir...

and how can a GOD who already knew the day would come when one of HIS children would disobey, ensure a people called by HIS NAME? if all have sinned and fallen short of HIS PERFECT and HOLY IMAGE?

Would you choose and weigh and measure your children against your children, picking and choosing based on their level of sin or disobedience?

GOD is good, HE found a way for all who have sinned to be reconciled to HIM and be called HIS CHILDREN...and that was in, by and through HIS SON

Let's just say that everything you stated above were actually true... (i.e).

- God created 'Adam' from dust
- Eve came from a human rib
etc etc etc.............

....Which even most Christians doubt as 'accurate', which would mean, according to you <and> the Bible, that sin is merely clouding these professed Christian's judgement.

A suitable and fundamental follow up question/analysis one might take would be...


If God already knew the future, before it ever was going to happen, and God also has the means to resolve any scenario, however He deems, (because He is all powerful); why a blood sacrifice? Also, why require that everyone believe it happened? Doesn't He realize that belief is not a choice? The given 'evidence' for this blood sacrifice either compels you, or it doesn't.


Hold that answer.... My point is simple...

In such a scenario, GOD is not only the SOLE ruler maker, but the SOLE rule enforcer. He answers to NO ONE above Him. He can create whatever scenario He wishes.

Heck, He could have stated resolution can come from a bunny taking a poo for your sin, and viola, we, as humans could not question it. Again, God answers to no one. Whatever He does IS 'good', because He is the one doing it, right?

Okay, please answer the above in red now, if you would be so kind :)
 
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miknik5

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Let's just say that everything you stated above were actually true... (i.e).

- God created 'Adam' from dust
- Eve came from a human rib
etc etc etc.............

....Which even most Christians doubt as 'accurate', which would mean, according to you <and> the Bible, that sin is merely clouding these professed Christian's judgement.

A suitable and fundamental follow up question/analysis one might take would be...


If God already knew the future, before it ever was going to happen, and God also has the means to resolve any scenario, however He deems, (because He is all powerful); why a blood sacrifice? Also, why require that everyone believe it happened? Doesn't He realize that belief is not a choice? The given 'evidence' for this blood sacrifice either compels you, or it doesn't.


Hold that answer.... My point is simple...

In such a scenario, GOD is not only the SOLE ruler maker, but the SOLE rule enforcer. He answers to NO ONE above Him. He can create whatever scenario He wishes.

Heck, He could have stated resolution can come from a bunny taking a poo for your sin, and viola, we, as humans could not question it. Again, God answers to no one. Whatever He does IS 'good', because He is the one doing it, right?

Okay, please answer the above in red now, if you would be so kind :)
GRACE. GOD´s UNMERITED, UNEARNED and ACKNOWLEDGED...UNFATHOMABLE....AMAZING...UNBELIEVABLE...AWESOME....

G R A C E
 
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miknik5

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Zechariah 4

What we deserved we did not get....instead.....


G R A C E

And all shall acknowledge HIS GRACE




ALL....

All knees shall bend...involuntarily...and they shall take out the CAPSTONE to GRACE, GRACE, UNFATHOMABLE GRACE unto it...


Believe it, C....oh yes, you should believe it...

HE shall be glorified....

And ALL will glorify GOD and HIS unfathomable GRACE most visibly and clearly made manifest in HIS SON whom HE sent for the sins of the world...
 
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cvanwey

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GRACE. GOD´s UNMERITED, UNEARNED and ACKNOWLEDGED...UNFATHOMABLE....AMAZING...UNBELIEVABLE...AWESOME....

G R A C E

Why even contribute, if you have no real plans on engaging. This forum arena is not here for believers to merely pronounce religious assertions. It is here for you to engage, and defend your position. Do you care to address my post, or are you merely here to preach?
 
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miknik5

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Why even contribute, if you have no real plans on engaging. This forum arena is not here for believers to merely pronounce religious assertions. It is here for you to engage, and defend your position. Do you care to address my post, or are you merely here to preach?
Too bad. I contribute THE TRUTH...take it or leave it...

It does NOTHING to me....either way.


Why don´t you understand?

You asked if GOD could provide any other scenario why a blood sacrifice?

Because HIS SON was sufficient and HIS BLOOD, THAT MARK of THAT COVENANT covers those who believe and all who are covered will understand this,...they are sinners, unclean, but by the GRACE of GOD through HIS SON, we are washed, marked, covered and saved....in by and through HIS SON....

ALL will simply acknowledge that it was HIS GRACE alone to give to us what we did not deserve...

And yet, so many are looking for more...
 
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