miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
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I can look at the pictures and movies and see it is spherical shape. These are not eyewitness accounts. I can review the experiments done by a multitude of people that provides good evidence it is spherical. Anyone can do these experiments themselves. There is so much confirmation that the earth is spherical that you need conspiracy theories to believe otherwise.

You believe in Jesus because you believe the eyewitness accounts are true. I believe in a spherical earth because of overwhelming evidence that I can examine. There is a big difference.
No. You know that isn´t true...I already gave you my testimony. I believe because I am a witness to the truth...

The witnesses weren´t just the first hand EYE witnesses sir...they are all those who have heard and received the GOSPEL as it should be heard and received....

And that not from a man...but from GOD...
 
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miknik5

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The why does Jesus say this is Matthew 26?

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

and Hebrews 9 says this:

16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

It seems god needs the shedding of blood to forgive sins. Jesus was sacrificed to take away sins. Do you need shedding of blood to forgive others?

We are connected but a spiritual connection needs to be shown.

So Jesus did not need to die to forgive sins but he needed to be resurrected? How can you have resurrection without death?

No, I am actually reading the words in the bible.
Iḿ sorry but it is written, unless a grain of wheat die, it abides alone...
 
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miknik5

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And as well it is written, Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
 
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miknik5

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The why does Jesus say this is Matthew 26?

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

and Hebrews 9 says this:

16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

It seems god needs the shedding of blood to forgive sins. Jesus was sacrificed to take away sins. Do you need shedding of blood to forgive others?

We are connected but a spiritual connection needs to be shown.

So Jesus did not need to die to forgive sins but he needed to be resurrected? How can you have resurrection without death?

No, I am actually reading the words in the bible.
HE will bring salvation to those who are WAITING and HOPING in HIM...there is a big difference between those who are waiting and hoping in HIM (For it is even written that those who HOPE in HIM purify themselves even as HE is pure) and those who aren´t.
 
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miknik5

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The whole point of Hebrews is that they did not understand their role in the temple.

Since CHRIST died for their sins...they no longer had to offer up sacrifices...CHRIST did that once and for all, and their work was not to continue the rituals which were only the shadow of all the realities found in CHRIST, but to understand that they had a MEDIATOR who entered in for them...and that this should bring the boldness to come before the throne of grace because HE entered in for us...as our forerunner, and we, through the VEIL, which is HIS BODY, can come to the throne because, Clizby, those who believe in HIM are washed and covered...and have the RIGHT GARMENT...

Those who came into the Holy of Holies, had to have on the right vestments...and they could not come up to the altar on ¨steps¨ sir...no man made constructs...lest they be found uncovered.

We always needed the RIGHT GARMENT...and through CHRIST< those who are washed, have the RIGHT GARMENT...

There is so much that you would have to read and pray on before you can come to the understanding that as I have said, the TESTIMONY of JESUS is hidden throughout HIS WORD....from OT to NT...
 
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miknik5

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Please read about the Wedding Garment and follow that up with the WHITE GARMENT of the saints and understand that in the Passover, when the ḧouses¨ were marked by the blood of the lamb, then those ¨houses¨ were passed over by the angel of death...they were protected.

And so are those who are washed by the BLOOD of THE LAMB....
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Most certainly does .... ie "Big Bang" .... without the "Big Bang" theory how planets, including ours came to be .... had to be a planet for life to evolve on.
No. I agree that the earth needs to exist and life needs to exist for evolution to happen but the theory of evolution does not explain the origins of the universe or the origins of life.

yes ... christians vary in their beliefs .... just as scientists vary in their beliefs.

you can't lump all christians together .... nor can you lump all scientists together.
Very different. Scientists can back up what they believe to be true with evidence that I can evaluate, Christians cannot. Most Christians look to the bible as a basis for their beliefs and are all different. Some don't look to the bible as their standard. Scientists can do independent testing and come up with a consensus of what is most likely true. Christians cannot.

Is repeatable experimentation possible in regard to the universe? No it is not.
The big bang theory makes predictions and has repeatable results.

If I were to post all the various methods of studying the bible in here ... the post would be huge ... If I just post a few .... then it appears too simplistic.

The main consideration is study ... His word has great depth and one should study it as one would study (in depth) anything.

I'll use an analogy ... like math

you have basic addition/subtraction
you have multiplication/division
you have fractions
Algebra
Calculus
Geometry



ancient writings of men believed to be inspired by God ....

Science (regarding how life began) evolution writings of men believed to be true

both writings of men .... collections of "writings" ....
Evolution writings are believed to be true based on evidence the writings of god are believed to be true based on faith. Very big difference.

again ... the bible is not a science book ... God's concern's is with relationships.
Then why do Christians try to use it as such? I am fine with whatever you want to believe about the bible, but when you use it as a science book then I will evaluate the claims based on scientific principles. If the universe started by a creation act we should be able to detect that through science, so far we have not. However science has not ruled that out, just that we have no evidence for it.

If ... you believe the theory of evolution to be true ... have you personally read and studied every single scientific theory that has been put forth? Of course not ... nor could you.
This is ridiculous. I can believe the theory of evolution to be true based on the evidence provided. I spent 6 months studying the theory and I am convinced by the evidence that it happened. Because I have positive evidence that evolution is true I don't need to entertain every other unsupported hypothesis of life diversity.

I can prove that pi*r^2 = area of a circle with calculus. Because of this I don't need to look at every other proposed formula for the area of a circle to see if it is true.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Please look at what the passages mean.

Jesus’ words of institution “blood of the covenant.” This is most directly quoting Ex 24:8, as Heb 9 notes. Ex 24:8 was part of making a covenant with God. The sacrifice was a covenant sacrifice, not a sacrifice for sin.

Why might it make sense to think of Jesus’ death as establishing a covenant? Because it was understood as a reference to the new covenant of Jer 31:31. Note that Jesus says it’s blood of a new covenant. The purpose of the new covenant is to write the law into our hearts. That is, its goal is to change us, not to enable God to be able to forgive us. Every commentary I’ve checked makes the connect with Ex 24:8 and Jer 31:31

How could Jesus’ death do this? Paul explains it. Because dying and rising with him changes our hearts, so it does what the new covenant of Jer 31:31 explains

If you look at Heb 9 you’ll see that punishment is not mentioned. There’s not even mention of sacrifices for sin. The cleansing referred to came from various purification ceremonies. It neither says nor implies that he was punished for us, though it does say he died for us. It says he is the mediator of a new covenant. In vs 18 it reters to the covenant sacrifice of Ex 24:8, quoting it explicitly in vs 20. It says that Jesus bears our sins and takes then away. But blood is not understood as a sign of punishment. Rather, OT thinking is used, in which blood is seen as cleansing. The author notes the various contexts in which blood cleanses, and then says “without the shedding of blood there is no remission” [of sins is implied]. I’m using KJV here intentionally.

The term translated remission is a broad one that originally means taking away, but came to mean also forgiveness. It’s used both ways in the NT. NRSV translates forgiveness. I believe they’re wrong. The whole context is about blood cleansing. The author here is saying without blood there is no taking away of sins via cleansing.

This is consistent with Paul. Without Christ’s death and resurrection (which Heb refers to as “blood”), we are left in our sins. That doesn’t prevent God from forgiving us, but it does prevent us from taking part in the new life that both Jesus and Paul want for us.

Heb 10:2 speaks of OT worshippers being cleansed, not being vicariously punished or God being enabled to forgive them. It then says sin sacrifices don’t remove sin, they remind us of them. What works is Christ’s offering of his body. How does that work? See 10:14: “For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” Note, perfected and sanctified. As in Paul (and Chap 9) the emphasis is on cleansing us, not allowing God to forgive us. 10:15 ff then quotes Jer 31:31, making it clear that he’s talking about renewing us. Forgiveness is finally mentioned in 10::17-18, but it’s clear that the forgiveness is because of our renewal. In Pauline terms, it is justification because of faith. (That may require some examination of what Paul means by faith.)
Thanks for writing this. I know you believe this but before I respond to this I have one question.

Why should I believe your interpretation of what the bible says over another Christians interpretation?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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No. You know that isn´t true...I already gave you my testimony. I believe because I am a witness to the truth...
Your right you did. I believe you had an experience. I am not convinced you had an experience with a god.

The witnesses weren´t just the first hand EYE witnesses sir...they are all those who have heard and received the GOSPEL as it should be heard and received....

And that not from a man...but from GOD...
Ok, can you support this with evidence?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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HE will bring salvation to those who are WAITING and HOPING in HIM...there is a big difference between those who are waiting and hoping in HIM (For it is even written that those who HOPE in HIM purify themselves even as HE is pure) and those who aren´t.
Great, can you support this with evidence?
 
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hedrick

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Thanks for writing this. I know you believe this but before I respond to this I have one question.

Why should I believe your interpretation of what the bible says over another Christians interpretation?
Because it agrees with the text, when taking into account the OT references.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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The whole point of Hebrews is that they did not understand their role in the temple.

Since CHRIST died for their sins...they no longer had to offer up sacrifices...CHRIST did that once and for all, and their work was not to continue the rituals which were only the shadow of all the realities found in CHRIST, but to understand that they had a MEDIATOR who entered in for them...and that this should bring the boldness to come before the throne of grace because HE entered in for us...as our forerunner, and we, through the VEIL, which is HIS BODY, can come to the throne because, Clizby, those who believe in HIM are washed and covered...and have the RIGHT GARMENT...

Those who came into the Holy of Holies, had to have on the right vestments...and they could not come up to the altar on ¨steps¨ sir...no man made constructs...lest they be found uncovered.

We always needed the RIGHT GARMENT...and through CHRIST< those who are washed, have the RIGHT GARMENT...

There is so much that you would have to read and pray on before you can come to the understanding that as I have said, the TESTIMONY of JESUS is hidden throughout HIS WORD....from OT to NT...
I am going to ask you the same question I asked hedrick.

Why should I believe your interpretation of what the bible says over another Christians interpretation?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Please read about the Wedding Garment and follow that up with the WHITE GARMENT of the saints and understand that in the Passover, when the ḧouses¨ were marked by the blood of the lamb, then those ¨houses¨ were passed over by the angel of death...they were protected.

And so are those who are washed by the BLOOD of THE LAMB....
I believed this as well. The problem is that you cannot demonstrate that it is true.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Because it agrees with the text, when taking into account the OT references.
Another Christian will say the same thing about their different interpretation of the same text. Why should I believe your interpretation over theirs?

Look at the christian only sections of this site. Every doctrine and text is disputed and argued about. How do I know who is correct? Why does god let the confusion continue.
 
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hedrick

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Because it agrees with the text, when taking into account the OT references.
You'll find that traditional interpretation tends to read into the text later ideas. E.g. all statements that Jesus died for us obviously mean that he was punished in our place. There are lots of examples like this. E.g. Paul says several times that our faith is imputed as righteousness. Traditional Protestant interpretation says this means that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, even though it says no such thing. When you can't imagine that God could forgive us without punishment, that assumption tends to get read into statements about Christ dying for us. And when you think righteousness means moral perfection, rather than being acceptable to God, it's easy to misread references to imputed righteousness.

The problem is that when you try to see what the NT writers were actually saying, you fail to find a number of ideas that Christians consider essential to the faith. In this case it's only some Christians during some periods. In other cases it's more serious. Bt that's what critical scholarship is about. It's about trying to avoid reading our own beliefs into the text.
 
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hedrick

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Another Christian will say the same thing about their different interpretation of the same text. Why should I believe your interpretation over theirs?

Look at the christian only sections of this site. Every doctrine and text is disputed and argued about. How do I know who is correct? Why does god let the confusion continue.
At a certain point you have to look at the text yourself.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You'll find that traditional interpretation tends to read into the text later ideas. E.g. all statements that Jesus died for us obviously mean that he was punished in our place. There are lots of examples like this. E.g. Paul says several times that our faith is imputed as righteousness. Traditional Protestant interpretation says this means that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, even though it says no such thing. When you can't imagine that God could forgive us without punishment, that assumption tends to get read into statements about Christ dying for us. And when you think righteousness means moral perfection, rather than being acceptable to God, it's easy to misread references to imputed righteousness.

The problem is that when you try to see what the NT writers were actually saying, you fail to find a number of ideas that Christians consider essential to the faith. In this case it's only some Christians during some periods. In other cases it's more serious. Bt that's what critical scholarship is about. It's about trying to avoid reading our own beliefs into the text.
Why should I believe this is a correct interpretation? Why do you think God lets the confusion about interpretation continue?
 
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hedrick

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Surely you've been in these kinds of discussions enough to know that I don't think the Bible came directly from God. I think it's humans describing their experiences with him. As such it's not surprising that those experiences should be different, and the ways they are expressed.

I don't actually consider Hebrews to have the kind authority that Evangelicals would. It tells us how one group of early Christians understood Jesus. But it was controversial in the early Church because of its apparent statement that sins can only be forgiven once, and because it was doubtful that it was written by Paul. It was accepted the West in the 4th Cent, under the assumption that Paul wrote it. He surely did not.

Nevertheless, it is useful to understand how early Christians understood Jesus and his death, which is why I spent time looking at what it says.
 
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