God and Sin

[Clizby WampusCat]

I asked this question in another thread that was recently closed. I am confused when people say that God cannot be in the presence of sin. I have heard this said many times for a reason why we need our sin removed before we can be with God. I even said this when I was a christian. My confusion is that the bible does not seem to support this assertion. There are many examples of God being in the presence of people or sinful beings. Here are some:

Genesis 3 has God in the garden with Adam and Eve after they sinned.
The story of Job tells about Satan and God having a conversion in the presence of each other. God showed His backside to Moses.
Isaiah chapter 6 tells of being in the presence of God.
See also 2 Chron 18.
Jer 23 says God is everywhere and in the presence of sinful people.
The Damascus experience of Paul where Jesus shows up.
And then there is Jesus as fully God in the presence of sinners 24/7 for his entire life.

I never questioned this as a Christian. If you believe this how do you reconcile these verses? If not, then why do we need Jesus to be with God?

 

[cloudyday2]

There is also the belief that God is omnipresent.

A possible solution is to imagine God as a cloud that is thicker in some places and thinner in others. A person who lives according to God's wishes becomes a pleasant oasis for the Holy Spirit / God. While a person who lives badly becomes a desert with only the faintest presence of the Holy Spirit / God. But God is everywhere - just not in equal concentrations.

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

Simplest explanation; It's not that God CANNOT be in the presence of sin--more that he really, really hates sin to the point where he would never allow it in his primary place of dwelling.

As for why we cannot enter heaven/God's dwelling place/etc without being sin-free, it's for the same reason why you don't allow weeds to coexist with flowers in your garden.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

There is also the belief that God is omnipresent.

A possible solution is to imagine God as a cloud that is thicker in some places and thinner in others. A person who lives according to God's wishes becomes a pleasant oasis for the Holy Spirit / God. While a person who lives badly becomes a desert with only the faintest presence of the Holy Spirit / God. But God is everywhere - just not in equal concentrations.

Well with the examples I gave I don't think this works with all of them. Like in the garden, Job and Jesus here on earth.

 

[GospelS]

The whole universe He occupies, above and beyond our imagination. There's no way anyone can hide from His presence. Yet, being with God in His presence is a different thing altogether.

Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night,” even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you.

For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Psalms 139:7-16

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Simplest explanation; It's not that God CANNOT be in the presence of sin--more that he really, really hates sin to the point where he would never allow it in his primary place of dwelling.

I can agree, I wanted to hear from Christians that actual believe that he cannot.

As for why we cannot enter heaven/God's dwelling place/etc without being sin-free, it's for the same reason why you don't allow weeds to coexist with flowers in your garden.

It is not the same in my opinion. It would be the same if the flowers put the weeds there and then said they were bad and needed to go and be burned. I did not choose to be a sinner, I was made one before I was born per the bible.

Have you ever wondered why God asks you to forgive others without a sacrifice but is unwilling to do that himself?

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

I can agree, I wanted to hear from Christians that actual believe that he cannot.

Perhaps you should specify that then.

It is not the same in my opinion. It would be the same if the flowers put the weeds there and then said they were bad and needed to go and be burned. I did not choose to be a sinner, I was made one before I was born per the bible.

It is the same, and your point is not really relevant if you look at it as a black-and-white issue. You asked why they can't be with God, I answered. The question, to my knowledge, had less to do with 'why' we're made sinful and more about why sin, by God's rules of the game, cannot be in his dwelling place.

You'd need a whole other thread to discuss why sin was necessary for the creation of human beings.

Have you ever wondered why God asks you to forgive others without a sacrifice but is unwilling to do that himself?

So coming down to earth to die a horrible, painful death to atone for our sins wasn't a sacrifice? I mean yikes, he could've just chucked us in the bin and started over; but being saved is as easy as believing in Jesus and avoiding being a crappy person. You can basically be the ideal Christian just by focusing on being selfless and not selfish. (disregarding the 5,000 hoops added by us humans later on down the line)

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

It is the same, and your point is not really relevant if you look at it as a black-and-white issue. You asked why they can't be with God, I answered. The question, to my knowledge, had less to do with 'why' we're made sinful and more about why sin, by God's rules of the game, cannot be in his dwelling place.

You'd need a whole other thread to discuss why sin was necessary for the creation of human beings.

Ok,

So coming down to earth to die a horrible, painful death to atone for our sins wasn't a sacrifice? I mean yikes, he could've just chucked us in the bin and started over; but being saved is as easy as believing in Jesus and avoiding being a crappy person. You can basically be the ideal Christian just by focusing on being selfless and not selfish. (disregarding the 5,000 hoops added by us humans later on down the line)

You misunderstood me. Maybe I was not clear enough. God requires a sacrifice before he will accept you into heaven, to remove your sin. God asks you to forgive others without anything else, no sacrifice or anything. He is unwilling to do what he asks you to do.

As far as it really being a sacrifice, that is another thread.

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

Ok,

You misunderstood me. Maybe I was not clear enough. God requires a sacrifice before he will accept you into heaven, to remove your sin. God asks you to forgive others without anything else, no sacrifice or anything. He is unwilling to do what he asks you to do.

As far as it really being a sacrifice, that is another thread.

Except, as your signature even states;

None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. ~ God

Seems to me like God is doing far more for us than we are for him, in that regard. Personally, I still think that being brutally killed and then staying dead for three days is a pretty big sacrifice for a literal God who, as I may remind you could destroy us at any moment and start over with 'better' children, to make.

 

[ChetSinger]

If you believe this how do you reconcile these verses? If not, then why do we need Jesus to be with God?

I don't believe that. When Jesus walked the earth he was God in the flesh and he was surrounded by sinners constantly.

He even tolerates evil in heaven, at least temporarily:

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. - Ephesians 6

 

[eleos1954]

I asked this question in another thread that was recently closed. I am confused when people say that God cannot be in the presence of sin. I have heard this said many times for a reason why we need our sin removed before we can be with God. I even said this when I was a christian. My confusion is that the bible does not seem to support this assertion. There are many examples of God being in the presence of people or sinful beings. Here are some:

Genesis 3 has God in the garden with Adam and Eve after they sinned.
The story of Job tells about Satan and God having a conversion in the presence of each other. God showed His backside to Moses.
Isaiah chapter 6 tells of being in the presence of God.
See also 2 Chron 18.
Jer 23 says God is everywhere and in the presence of sinful people.
The Damascus experience of Paul where Jesus shows up.
And then there is Jesus as fully God in the presence of sinners 24/7 for his entire life.

I never questioned this as a Christian. If you believe this how do you reconcile these verses? If not, then why do we need Jesus to be with God?

The story of Job tells about Satan and God having a conversion in the presence of each other.

Satan is a different kind of created being ... he is an angel and angels have special powers to change their appearance, be visible or not visible, and other "super powers" (so to speak) Satan & the 1/3 started out in the heavily abode and maintained their original created nature ... that is they remained angels (fallen ones)

If you will recall the Damascus experience ... Paul was blinded temporarily.

God, by nature, is Spirit and a spirit does not have a bodily form.

then there is Jesus as fully God in the presence of sinners 24/7 for his entire life.

and He was fully man (bodily form) ... fully God in the spiritual/divine ... both natures in the person of Jesus.

Jesus took on the form/nature of a man (physical characteristics) of a man. ie ... the Word became flesh.

God saw fit “to perfect the author of [our] salvation through sufferings.” To save humans, Jesus had to assume full humanity. But, for His suffering and death to have merit before God, Jesus had to be fully God. In the incarnation, He did not lay aside His divinity, although He set aside His glory and He temporarily gave up the use of some of His divine attributes (omniscience, for example, John 11:34; Matt. 24:36). But He did fully assume our human nature.

showed His backside to Moses.

Correct.

One can not see Gods face.
Exodus 33:20
Berean Study Bible
But He added, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”

23 says God is everywhere and in the presence of sinful people.

Spiritually

chapter 6 tells of being in the presence of God.

Isaiah saw God in a vision.

Adam & Eve

Genesis 3:8

King James Bible
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

.. why do we need Jesus to be with God

Jesus in the only way to be reconciled with God. When we receive Him He welcomes us into and we become a member of the heavily family .... Jesus is our brother through Him and our relationship we become the children of God (sons & daughters)

• Hebrews 2:11 says, “For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers” (ESV).

The word translated “brothers” is the word used for blood relatives, but it also refers to Christians. The generic term brother in Scripture usually also includes sisters. In this passage, the writer of Hebrews is explaining how the perfect God-Man, Jesus, could call imperfect humans His brothers and sisters.

When a human being is born into the family of God, through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus, God becomes our Father (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:4–6). This happens through an act of the Holy Spirit who moves into our spirits and begins to change us (2 Corinthians 5:17). God is also the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we share in that relationship as adopted children.

Jesus' prayer for believers.

John 17

Prayer for All Believers

20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one— 23I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.24Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

25Righteous Father, although the world has not known You, I know You, and they know that You sent Me. 26And I have made Your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love You have for Me may be in them, and I in them.”

and it will be so .......... for eternity! Absolutely AMAZING what Jesus did for mankind because of His love for us. I pray you grasp the magnitude of the LOVE God and Jesus has for us.

We have an AWESOME LOVING GOD! AMEN and AMEN!

Whew .... I need a kleenix to dry my tears ;o)

May the Lord Bless all.

 

[Andrewn]

I am confused when people say that God cannot be in the presence of sin. I have heard this said many times for a reason why we need our sin removed before we can be with God. I even said this when I was a christian. My confusion is that the bible does not seem to support this assertion.

You're quite right, the Bible doesn't support this. God is omnipresent and He has special interest in saving sinners. Jesus said this himself in the parables of the Lost Sheep, Lost Coin, and Lost Son. No sinner would ever be saved if God stayed away from him.

Rom 5:20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant.

 

[hedrick]

If God really doesn't want sin in his presence, the simplest way to deal with it is to remove it. That's what Paul suggests in Rom 6 and elsewhere. In 3:25 has says before Jesus, God passed over sin, but now he is dealing with it. Rom 6 says that in union with Christ we die and sin and rise to new life.

Obviously this isn't complete now, but 1 Cor 3:12 describes a purification.

Jesus' teachings, incidentally, suggest that God is quite happy simply to forgive sin, although he is looking for a certain attitude. One is a willingness to forgive others.

 

[St_Worm2]

I am confused when people say that God cannot be in the presence of sin. My confusion is that the bible does not seem to support this assertion.

Hello Clizby, it seems to me that there is more in the Bible about sin/sinful men & women not being able to stand in God's presence than God not being able to withstand the presence of their sin. Here are some verses/passages from the Bible that come to mind (if some of these have already been posited in this thread, I apologize).

Exodus 33
18 Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!”
19 And God said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”
20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

Psalms 1
5 The wicked will not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

Psalms 5
4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
No evil dwells with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.

Psalms 66
18 If I regard wickedness in my heart,
The Lord will not hear.
​

There are many more verses & passages like these. When I think of them, I'll come back and add them.

--David

 

[Tolworth John]

am confused when people say that God cannot be in the presence of sin

If God is holy then it is not that God cannot be in the presence of sin, but that sin cannot be in the presence of God.
Just as at night when one puts the light on, the darkness vanishes so God banishes sin.

How do we have the reports of God being in the presence of sin, they were appearances of Jesus,xwho while he is part of the trinity and is God is also able to put off that ' holiness' so to mingle with sinfull humanity.

 

[Tinker Grey]

If God is holy then it is not that God cannot be in the presence of sin, but that sin cannot be in the presence of God.
Just as at night when one puts the light on, the darkness vanishes so God banishes sin.

How do we have the reports of God being in the presence of sin, they were appearances of Jesus,xwho while he is part of the trinity and is God is also able to put off that ' holiness' so to mingle with sinfull humanity.

Does your version of god include omnipresence? This entails that he is right here, right now ... in the presence of sin.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Except, as your signature even states;

None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. ~ God

Seems to me like God is doing far more for us than we are for him, in that regard. Personally, I still think that being brutally killed and then staying dead for three days is a pretty big sacrifice for a literal God who, as I may remind you could destroy us at any moment and start over with 'better' children, to make.

I agree this is what the bible teaches. The sacrifice of Jesus is not what his thread is about but that would make a good thread on its own.

The fact that god did wipe humans all out and essentially started over with Noah and his family shows that if the god of the bible exists, he is immoral. The dead babies thumping against the arks hull attest to that.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I don't believe that. When Jesus walked the earth he was God in the flesh and he was surrounded by sinners constantly.

He even tolerates evil in heaven, at least temporarily:

I agree. My question was to christian that say God cannot be in the presence of sin.

 

[Lost4words]

Jesus came to save sinners. He indeed walked amongst them.

God always has His merciful arms open to sinners.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Satan is a different kind of created being ... he is an angel and angels have special powers to change their appearance, be visible or not visible, and other "super powers" (so to speak) Satan & the 1/3 started out in the heavily abode and maintained their original created nature ... that is they remained angels (fallen ones)

So they cannot sin? How do you define sin?

If you will recall the Damascus experience ... Paul was blinded temporarily.

Was Jesus not there? He was still in Paul's presence.

God, by nature, is Spirit and a spirit does not have a bodily form.

That does not matter his spirit can be in the presence of humans.

and He was fully man (bodily form) ... fully God in the spiritual/divine ... both natures in the person of Jesus.

Jesus took on the form/nature of a man (physical characteristics) of a man. ie ... the Word became flesh.

God saw fit “to perfect the author of [our] salvation through sufferings.” To save humans, Jesus had to assume full humanity. But, for His suffering and death to have merit before God, Jesus had to be fully God. In the incarnation, He did not lay aside His divinity, although He set aside His glory and He temporarily gave up the use of some of His divine attributes (omniscience, for example, John 11:34; Matt. 24:36). But He did fully assume our human nature.

He did not fully assume our human nature since our human nature includes a sin nature.

One can not see Gods face.
Exodus 33:20
Berean Study Bible
But He added, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”

You said go dwas spirit? Now he has a face? And Jesus clearly had a face and people saw that?

Isaiah saw God in a vision.

Could be, others think different. It is unclear.

Adam & Eve

Genesis 3:8

King James Bible
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Genesis 3: 8-10
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”[/quote]Hid here is used in the past tense. They are no longer hiding when the ensuing conversation with god happens in verses 11-13.

Jesus in the only way to be reconciled with God. When we receive Him He welcomes us into and we become a member of the heavily family .... Jesus is our brother through Him and our relationship we become the children of God (sons & daughters)

• Hebrews 2:11 says, “For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers” (ESV).

The word translated “brothers” is the word used for blood relatives, but it also refers to Christians. The generic term brother in Scripture usually also includes sisters. In this passage, the writer of Hebrews is explaining how the perfect God-Man, Jesus, could call imperfect humans His brothers and sisters.

When a human being is born into the family of God, through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus, God becomes our Father (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:4–6). This happens through an act of the Holy Spirit who moves into our spirits and begins to change us (2 Corinthians 5:17). God is also the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we share in that relationship as adopted children.

Jesus' prayer for believers.

John 17

Prayer for All Believers

20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one— 23I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.24Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

25Righteous Father, although the world has not known You, I know You, and they know that You sent Me. 26And I have made Your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love You have for Me may be in them, and I in them.”

and it will be so .......... for eternity! Absolutely AMAZING what Jesus did for mankind because of His love for us. I pray you grasp the magnitude of the LOVE God and Jesus has for us.

We have an AWESOME LOVING GOD! AMEN and AMEN!

Whew .... I need a kleenix to dry my tears ;o)

May the Lord Bless all.

I agree that you believe this. I have no reason to believe it is true.