God and Sin

[Clizby WampusCat]

Why are you here? Do you long to be restored to fellowship with God and his human family? I know that he wants you in it. I'm happy to pray for you.

Well eleos1954 says different. Why should I believe you over him?

 

[ChetSinger]

Well eleos1954 says different. Why should I believe you over him?

I'll answer your question if you answer mine.

 

[eleos1954]

Typical.

This shows just another way God as described in the bible is immoral. God has the power to convince me he exists yet because of his pettiness he will let me go into eternal destruction. If he convinced me he exists then at least I would be able to make an informed decision as to whether I would follow him or not.

Galatians 6:7

English Standard Version
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.

 

[Andrewn]

Why should I believe you over him?

I lost count as to how many times you said this as if you didn't have a God-created mind by which to choose. However, I have to admit, it's an interesting mantra to live by.

I asked this question to myself: Suppose that Christianity did not exist, that God was never embodied. Would I choose to be an atheist or follow one of the other world religions?

I think I'll have to believe in God. I can't see a world without God. Which religion would I choose? Probably consider what the religion teaches about the nature of God and about ethics. I would pray to one true God to give me wisdom. I may choose, for example, Taoism or Zoroastrianism. But the point is that I can't live without God. And without a redeeming God, all religions are more or less similar.

Of course, Christianity has the big advantage that God revealed himself in the form of a man and He himself redeemed mankind. It is fellowship with this God that counts, not religion. And with the redeeming God, all denominations are more or less similar.

 

[eleos1954]

Well eleos1954 says different. Why should I believe you over him?

Well eleos1954 says different.

no ... God says different ... I quoted scripture.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Galatians 6:7

New American Standard Bible
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

of course you ... being a christian for 18 years ... already know this ... and BTW I'm not a him.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I'll answer your question if you answer mine.

I am here because I like to discuss these issues because I want to know what is true and what is not. When I was a christian I believed because of a bad epistemology, I believed because of insufficient evidence. Do you think people should have good reasons for what they believe? If god exists then I would like to know that. So far I have not found sufficient evidence to believe God exists.

 

[eleos1954]

I am here because I like to discuss these issues because I want to know what is true and what is not. When I was a christian I believed because of a bad epistemology, I believed because of insufficient evidence. Do you think people should have good reasons for what they believe? If god exists then I would like to know that. So far I have not found sufficient evidence to believe God exists.

What "evidence" do you need to "prove" God exists? What would you consider "evidence" in regard to the existence of God?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Galatians 6:7

English Standard Version
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.

Quoting scripture is not convincing to an atheist. If god exists he can stop me if he wishes.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I lost count as to how many times you said this as if you didn't have a God-created mind by which to choose. However, I have to admit, it's an interesting mantra to live by.

It is not a mantra but a good question. When we have many Christians differing interpretation on all points of doctrine. How do I determine who is correct?

I asked this question to myself: Suppose that Christianity did not exist, that God was never embodied. Would I choose to be an atheist or follow one of the other world religions?

One point of clarification is that I do not choose to be an atheist. I am an atheist because I am not convinced a god exists.

I think I'll have to believe in God. I can't see a world without God.

Why is this a good reason to believe a god exists? You preferences have no bearing on what is true or not.

Which religion would I choose? Probably consider what the religion teaches about the nature of God and about ethics. I would pray to one true God to give me wisdom. I may choose, for example, Taoism or Zoroastrianism. But the point is that I can't live without God. And without a redeeming God, all religions are more or less similar.

Why can't you live without god?

Of course, Christianity has the big advantage that God revealed himself in the form of a man and He himself redeemed mankind. It is fellowship with this God that counts, not religion. And with the redeeming God, all denominations are more or less similar.

So how does Christianity being different than other religions make it true?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

no ... God says different ... I quoted scripture.

So do most Christians that differ form your interpretation.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

If this faith is as described in Hebrews 11, then I cannot ever have faith.

and BTW I'm not a him.

Right, I should not have assumed anything. I apologize.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What "evidence" do you need to "prove" God exists? What would you consider "evidence" in regard to the existence of God?

Anything can be evidence. I am looking for sufficient evidence, evidence that would convince me. As far as what that would be, I don't know. There could be evidence out there that I don't know about. So far, I have not evaluated any evidence that convinces me a god exists.

God should know what evidence I would need and he could provide that evidence. Either God does not exist or he does not want me to have sufficient evidence for belief at this time.

 

[eleos1954]

Quoting scripture is not convincing to an atheist. If god exists he can stop me if he wishes.

He created His intelligent beings with choice (freewill) ... He does not force Himself on anybody ... nor does He require anyone to believe He exists or anything else He reveals about himself.

So, what do you currently believe about life after death? Does it exist? What scientific proof is there one way or the other?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

He created His intelligent beings with choice (freewill) ... He does not force Himself on anybody ... nor does He require anyone to believe He exists or anything else He reveals about himself.

So, what do you currently believe about life after death? Does it exist? What scientific proof is there one way or the other?

My official stance is that I don't know. I do not have sufficient evidence to believe that an afterlife does exist. I am not saying it does not exist.

 

[eleos1954]

Anything can be evidence. I am looking for sufficient evidence, evidence that would convince me. As far as what that would be, I don't know. There could be evidence out there that I don't know about. So far, I have not evaluated any evidence that convinces me a god exists.

God should know what evidence I would need and he could provide that evidence. Either God does not exist or he does not want me to have sufficient evidence for belief at this time.

As far as what that would be, I don't know.

No ... what evidence maybe not ... but you have decided you require (material/physical evidence) .... as you have accepted what science has put forth thus far in regard to evolution verses creation on earth and have accepted it as true.

So, if you hold true to this belief ... then that is where you will remain because God's word does not change ... and of course you know that ... if in fact you were a christian for 18 years.

God says He created the universe and everything in it .... not just the earth and living things .... so debating how living things might have evolved here on planet earth .... isn't' the real argument.

 

[eleos1954]

My official stance is that I don't know. I do not have sufficient evidence to believe that an afterlife does exist. I am not saying it does not exist.

one day there will be false evidence presented and it will be material in nature and will convince almost the entire world that it is true

 

[ChetSinger]

I am here because I like to discuss these issues because I want to know what is true and what is not. When I was a christian I believed because of a bad epistemology, I believed because of insufficient evidence. Do you think people should have good reasons for what they believe? If god exists then I would like to know that. So far I have not found sufficient evidence to believe God exists.

OK. I think belief in a deity is reasonable and even likely, given that we know of no way that life could have arisen from only chemical reactions. That is, I think that a study of the natural world leads to deism. Paul says something similar and I think this is still true 2,000 years later:

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.​

What Paul doesn't say is that the natural world is enough to lead us to Christ. Jesus said that requires the help of the Father:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.​

How does that happen? Sometimes it's just the gift of God; he just chooses people using his own criteria. But as I see it, we can also come to him without being chosen:

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.

And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart.

Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.​

And there are many more.

You answered my question so I agreed to answer yours. I never assume that passage in Hebrews applies to any particular person because it's common for believers to drift away from God; drifting away is the nature of sheep. And sheep can be restored:

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.​

Also, never underestimate the power of earnest, humble, and sustained prayer, including repetition of the Orthodox Jesus Prayer, which has often helped me when I'm down:

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."​

God isn't sitting in heaven with his arms crossed, saying "be good". He's sitting with his arms open, saying "believe in the gospel and receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life". The gospel really is a good deal for us.

 

[com7fy8]

And then there is Jesus as fully God in the presence of sinners 24/7 for his entire life.

Yes, Jesus spent time with sinners while He was on this earth; but also Jesus got away from people and prayed. So, Jesus was not in the presence of sinners 24/7, I offer.

I am confused when people say that God cannot be in the presence of sin.

God is present with us while we sin. But our sinning can make us deeply degraded so we are not experiencing God in His love.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No ... what evidence maybe not ... but you have decided you require (material/physical evidence) .... as you have accepted what science has put forth thus far in regard to evolution verses creation on earth and have accepted it as true.

I have not said I require only material evidence. I require good evidence. That potentially can be anything, not just material. I am not aware of good evidence to believe that the supernatural exists.

So, if you hold true to this belief ... then that is where you will remain because God's word does not change ... and of course you know that ... if in fact you were a christian for 18 years.

Go ahead and question my sincerity if you must to keep your theology intact.

God says He created the universe and everything in it .... not just the earth and living things .... so debating how living things might have evolved here on planet earth .... isn't' the real argument.

Evolution and other sciences shows that the bible cannot be taken literally. Science has no answers for how the ultimate beginning happened. We do know how it was created after it started, and it differs from the biblical account. But a god could have started it.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

one day there will be false evidence presented and it will be material in nature and will convince almost the entire world that it is true

If so, then your god is immoral to let this happen. To allow intentional convincing false evidence that will send people to hell if they believe it.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

OK. I think belief in a deity is reasonable and even likely, given that we know of no way that life could have arisen from only chemical reactions.

Just because we don't know how life began does not mean we get to insert a god. The correct answer is I don't know until we have sufficient evidence to believe one way or the other.

That is, I think that a study of the natural world leads to deism. Paul says something similar and I think this is still true 2,000 years later:

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.

​

Since the natural world does not convince me a god exists this I know this scripture is wrong. I know it says I suppress the truth but I know I am not doing that.​

What Paul doesn't say is that the natural world is enough to lead us to Christ. Jesus said that requires the help of the Father:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.​

How does that happen? Sometimes it's just the gift of God; he just chooses people using his own criteria. But as I see it, we can also come to him without being chosen:

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.

And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart.

Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.​

And there are many more.

Ok, why should I believe any of this?

You answered my question so I agreed to answer yours. I never assume that passage in Hebrews applies to any particular person because it's common for believers to drift away from God; drifting away is the nature of sheep. And sheep can be restored:

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.​

Also, never underestimate the power of earnest, humble, and sustained prayer, including repetition of the Orthodox Jesus Prayer, which has often helped me when I'm down:

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."​

God isn't sitting in heaven with his arms crossed, saying "be good". He's sitting with his arms open, saying "believe in the gospel and receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life". The gospel really is a good deal for us.

Or maybe he could have just forgiven us without the need for a sacrifice and all would be saved. He makes the rules right? This is what he asks of us to forgive others that do wrong to us. I have children and when they are disrespectful to me I don't threaten the with death and then give them a vague notion about how to be forgiven that is unclear. I teach them about what is right and why, how it makes me feel when they are disrespectful to me etc. I do this because I love them.

Anyway I will ask again, why should I believe any of this?