Gnostic Discussion

[FireDragon76]

There was no such thing as "Gnosticism", there were a multitude of Gnosticisms. And they frequently had very different things to say about "Jesus", which includes the Docetic belief that Jesus was a divine apparition.

Gnosticism is not some kind of Christianity sans dogma; it's merely an alternative set of dogmas.

-CryptoLutheran

I am convinced Gnosticism was the equivalent of what today we would recognize as "The New Age", it was a popularization of Platonism mixed with Asian religions. Vague and fluid, just like the New Age is today. They appropriated the Jesus story for their own ends, just as many New Agers do today.

 

[dlamberth]

I am convinced Gnosticism was the equivalent of what today we would recognize as "The New Age", it was a popularization of Platonism mixed with Asian religions. Vague and fluid, just like the New Age is today. They appropriated the Jesus story for their own ends, just as many New Agers do today.

What's confusing to me is the use of the word "Gnosticism" in this thread. That's because there's Christian Gnostic's and then there's gnosticism which is something different. I'm trying to understand how much of my confusion is me. Spiritually I very much operate in the gnostic arena. I'm not New Age nor even a Gnostic Christian. But I'm convinced that gnosticism runs through out the Bible. To grapple with things like the "Heart of Christ" from an experiential perspective is very much a gnostic endeavor.

 

[FireDragon76]

What's confusing to me is the use of the word "Gnosticism" in this thread. That's because there's Christian Gnostic's and then there's gnosticism which is something different. I'm trying to understand how much of my confusion is me. Spiritually I very much operate in the gnostic arena. I'm not New Age nor even a Gnostic Christian. But I'm convinced that gnosticism runs through out the Bible. To grapple with things like the "Heart of Christ" from an experiential perspective is very much a gnostic endeavor.

That's not Gnosticism in the sense we are talking about, that's mysticism, which is potentially distinct. Nobody is denying that the Bible contains the mystical. Paul's epistles are full of mystical language. Gnostics, on the other hand, had more in common with today's occultists, like people that read the Da Vinci Code and take it seriously. They see reality as a big conspiracy.

You don't identify with the New Age but your attitudes seem to be similar to most New Agers in that you have a highly eclectic approach to religious questions and are content with very vague assertions about reality.

 

[jaybird88]

had a been around back then i would have worshiped with the Gnostics rather than the roman Christians. they had much better fruits IMO. their ideas were not based on politics, conquest and wealth.

 

[dlamberth]

You don't identify with the New Age but your attitudes seem to be similar to most New Agers in that you have a highly eclectic approach to religious questions and are content with very vague assertions about reality.

That might be because in my gnostic experience of life, reality appears different depending upon one's perspective. For instance, when looking through the lens of Panentheism, everywhere I look, there God is. For not all, but for most Christians, that perspective is foreign to them. But it's my reality. Is that a vague assertion?

 

[FireDragon76]

That might be because in my gnostic experience of life, reality appears different depending upon one's perspective. For instance, when looking through the lens of Panentheism, everywhere I look, there God is. For not all, but for most Christians, that perspective is foreign to them.

We don't think of nature itself being divine but it is appropriate in the Protestant tradition to see God as behind nature and to see God working through nature providentially. We certainly don't believe in a Deist conceptualization of God, as a God completely above and removed from nature.

Lutherans in particular have a sacramental approach to the natural world, and we are almost unique among Protestants in that we continue, just as Catholics do, to have a physical and embodied spirituality. But we look primarily to find God saving us in an act of human history, without denying the goodness of the natural world altogether.

 

[dlamberth]

But we look primarily to find God saving us in an act of human history, without denying the goodness of the natural world altogether.

I know, I've see this before. That perspective had a lot to do with my own deconversion because I found it a very limited experience of the presence of God and of God as ones reality in life. The more I explored gnosticism the more convinced I became of finding God's Divinity with in ALL of Creation.

 

[2tim_215]

had a been around back then i would have worshiped with the Gnostics rather than the roman Christians. they had much better fruits IMO. their ideas were not based on politics, conquest and wealth.

That's true of the Roman Church but not the original church which was made up of the Apostles (Peter, Paul, James. etc.) and the Apostles doctrine and not the perverted church doctrine. I personally would not have worshipped with them, just follow the Apostles doctrine, the same way it should be done today. The problem is the perversion of the original church but fortunately we have the record of the original church to go by in our Bibles and thus should try and avoid the esoteric New Age falsehood preached by the gnostics.

 

[2tim_215]

had a been around back then i would have worshiped with the Gnostics rather than the roman Christians. they had much better fruits IMO. their ideas were not based on politics, conquest and wealth.

That's true of the Roman Church but not the original church which was made up of the Apostles (Peter, Paul, James. etc.) and the Apostles doctrine and not the perverted church doctrine. I personally would not have worshipped with them, just follow the Apostles doctrine, the same way it should be done today. The problem is the perversion of the original church but fortunately we have the record of the original church to go by in our Bibles and thus should try and avoid the esoteric New Age falsehood preached by the gnostics.

 

[FireDragon76]

I know, I've see this before. That perspective had a lot to do with my own deconversion because I found it a very limited experience of the presence of God and of God as ones reality in life.

I don't see how acknowledging one event illuminating our perspective on the world is all that limiting, but maybe I am missing something.

Individual mysticism might be meaningful to the individual, but the individual is never fully able to relate those experiences to the experiences of others if they reject the framework of religion, of traditional authority structures that provide the basic grammar and form of shared spirituality. And that's something I find impoverishing, because there's something profound in connecting with other people, at least for me.

And that's the greatest weakness I see in New Age spirituality, the spiritual consumerism and individualism behind it all. Years ago I was reading some of the writings of Kobotsu Shindo, or Kevin Malone, a Zen chaplain that works in prisons in New York, and his ambivalence about anybody exploring eastern religions and the New Age made me seriously rethink my spiritual proclivities (at the time I did not identify as a Christian, and very much interested in dabbling in eastern religion). There is a need for authenticity and community that the New Age cannot provide by going in and culturally appropriating decontextualized spiritualities for the individual to use. In fact Malone not only saw this as inauthentic, he saw it as ugly and exploitative.

 

[jaybird88]

That's true of the Roman Church but not the original church which was made up of the Apostles (Peter, Paul, James. etc.) and the Apostles doctrine and not the perverted church doctrine. I personally would not have worshipped with them, just follow the Apostles doctrine, the same way it should be done today. The problem is the perversion of the original church but fortunately we have the record of the original church to go by in our Bibles and thus should try and avoid the esoteric New Age falsehood preached by the gnostics.

the perverted church had the same scriptures we have today.
whats your definition of esoteric new age?
esoteric means secret, Jesus taught the church of His day hid knowledge, He taught that His disciples got secret information that the public did not get, and we know that during the middle ages the church went to great lengths to keep all scriptures hidden from the common man.
new age philosophy IMO means anyone that takes a look around, believes we have lost our way and wants to get back on the correct path, sounds exactly like what Jesus and the 12 were dealing with.

 

[ViaCrucis]

we know that during the middle ages the church went to great lengths to keep all scriptures hidden from the common man.

You might want to read a history book instead of a Dan Brown novel.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jaybird88]

You might want to read a history book instead of a Dan Brown novel.

-CryptoLutheran

i would be happy to do that, please point me to the history book that shows that the common people spoke and read Latin.

 

[ViaCrucis]

i would be happy to do that, please point me to the history book that shows that the common people spoke and read Latin.

So when did the Coptic Church use Latin?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JoeyChris]

i would be happy to do that, please point me to the history book that shows that the common people spoke and read Latin.

This looks like a potentially interesting history textbook on Latin literacy in middle ages. The Literacy Of The Laity In The Middle Ages : James Westfall Thompson : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[jaybird88]

So when did the Coptic Church use Latin?

-CryptoLutheran

i was referring to the church of europe, the one that has had the biggest influence on the faith to this day. the could have made the scriptures available in peoples common language, but they chose not to.
i thought dan brown wrote on the secret Jesus bloodline that that became the merovingian bloodline, that makes a lot of sense, the descendants of Jesus became the corrupt leaders of europe, starving the people and waging endless wars.

 

[ViaCrucis]

i was referring to the church of europe, the one that has had the biggest influence on the faith to this day. the could have made the scriptures available in peoples common language, but they chose not to.
i thought dan brown wrote on the secret Jesus bloodline that that became the merovingian bloodline, that makes a lot of sense, the descendants of Jesus became the corrupt leaders of europe, starving the people and waging endless wars.

And we must be ever vigilant because the Eye of Sauron is watching from his dark fortress in Mordor.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jaybird88]

And we must be ever vigilant because the Eye of Sauron is watching from his dark fortress in Mordor.

-CryptoLutheran

thats good thinking, i should watch more sci fi movies, dumb myself down, then maybe i will become so simple minded to believe the church has never been involved in any wrongdoing lol.

 

[ViaCrucis]

thats good thinking, i should watch more sci fi movies, dumb myself down, then maybe i will become so simple minded to believe the church has never been involved in any wrongdoing lol.

There's a vast difference between recognizing when and where Christians and the Church collectively have/has failed, and believing in conspiracy theories. I am perfectly capable of recognizing the evil of inquisitions, pogroms, and crusades without believing that there are secret albino monk assassins.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jaybird88]

There's a vast difference between recognizing when and where Christians and the Church collectively have/has failed, and believing in conspiracy theories. I am perfectly capable of recognizing the evil of inquisitions, pogroms, and crusades without believing that there are secret albino monk assassins.

-CryptoLutheran

yeah because secret knowledge is just plain crazy talk.

Matthew 13:11
And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.