Gnostic Discussion

[Sanoy]

Do you have a simple example?

Simple? I'm not sure I can answer that. When one one sings a song wherever it comes from that is where I worship.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you have a simple example?

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

"But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me." (John 15:26)

"And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, 'you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.'

So when they had come together, they asked him, 'Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?' He said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.'" (Acts 1:4-8)

"And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39)

"So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers." (Acts 2:41-42)

"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hearingheart]

What the gnostic books reveal is that the gnostic style of faith is a different way to be Christian. It is to reject the fundamentalist's way to simply "believe" and that is it! It rejects the Biblical literalists, rejects those who say just accept the Creeds, rejects those who say orthodox Christian doctrine explains it all. It is to reject those who say Christianity means accept Jesus or go to hell!

It promotes that Christ's intent was more a spiritual relationship to God rather than the establishment of a "belief system."

Rather the gnostic way to be Christian was a more spiritual path. Knowing Jesus preached in parables, not laying forth doctrines or creeds, opposing religious hard-liners, they believed his message was to open a way for persons to relate directly to God. His purpose was not to elevate or idolize the past, as Christianity has done essentially, but to declare a living relationship with the Spirit of God, available and open to all.

What do you think is the correlation between the Essene communities and Gnosticism?

I always wondered if the Essene's started as a branch of the Pharisee's and then moved toward a more spiritual form that cast off the constrictions of the law over a relational faith given the libraries they kept and the exposure they had to faiths other than Jewish.

It's almost like a natural progression.

 

[jaybird88]

John 14:6 :Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

John 11:26 "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

1 Cor. 15:3-5 "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve."

John 14:6 :Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Matthew 16:18 "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

I think Gnosticism does lead ones minds to a spiritual world, and I think any one who initiates in that pursuit will find will find such a world. The Spiritual world is an eager place. But that world is not for me.

what do these scriptures have to do with the gnostic books?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Gnosticism is not really a form of Christianity in my opinion. It is a syncretic religious tradition that borrows from all. Plotinus condemned the gnostics for perverting his teachings as much as the Christians did.
Once you read on Valentinianism with its syzygies and the pleoroma for instance, you reach a level where any connection to Christianity seems tenuous to non-existent.

The only surviving 'gnostic' sect is perhaps the Mandaeans in Iraq. They seem to fall quite beyond the pale.

 

[football5680]

Gnosticism was simply syncretism. The Gnostic books do not show a "different way to be Christian," they show a different religion which adopted some Christian elements.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

It is very tempting and easy to romanticize a past that is insufficiently documented and/or mostly shows up in polemical condemnations written by enemies.

There are some factors that make certain elements of gnosticism look like the better alternative to Christian orthodoxy: their decidedly egalitarian attitude towards women, for example, is certainly commendable (and was more or less shared by early Christianity, if Paul's references to prominent female members of several congregations are any indication). Ironically, it's possibly that the rivalry between gnostic faiths and proto-Christianity was what triggered more misogynistic developments between the faction that became the Church.

 

[Dr. Bill Thomas]

Gnosticism is not really a form of Christianity in my opinion. It is a syncretic religious tradition that borrows from all. Plotinus condemned the gnostics for perverting his teachings as much as the Christians did.
Once you read on Valentinianism with its syzygies and the pleoroma for instance, you reach a level where any connection to Christianity seems tenuous to non-existent.

The only surviving 'gnostic' sect is perhaps the Mandaeans in Iraq. They seem to fall quite beyond the pale.

Try doing a google search for Gnostic Churches in the United States.

 

[Dr. Bill Thomas]

Gnosticism was simply syncretism. The Gnostic books do not show a "different way to be Christian," they show a different religion which adopted some Christian elements.

That's an interesting theory except that Gnosticism predates christianity.

 

[Dr. Bill Thomas]

The Gnostic Church is the church of Christ, the church preached by Jesus, the divine Rabbi of Galilee, with all of its sacred initiatic mysteries. It is the church of redemption, the primitive Christian church that suffered all of the attacks from the Catholic sectarianism, whose doctrine was altered to accommodate its aims and egotistic interest. The Gnostic Church possesses the holiest revelations, interprets, and presents the truth in its pristine purity without spots to dim it.

Our doctrine is science and religion at the same time. As science, it depends upon something superior, supreme, infinite, and parascientific (which is very elevated and greater than the lower, vulgar knowledge) for the incarnation of the knowledge par excellence. As a religion it exerts that the man, as supreme human hierarchy, can awaken in himself the divine powers that pertain to him in order to one day attain the Holy Union with the primary cause that was his genesis. Within this dualism, it is respecting that Latin principle that states Primum intelligere, deinde credere... [First understand, and then believe…]

The difference between Catholicism and the Gnostic Church is based upon the fact that for us, Christ is a substance and its existence on the Earth a fact or a cosmic-biological phenomenon, whereas the Catholics only give importance to the historical-material fact, thus ignoring the true mystery of this Christonic substance...

The Catholic Church, in its fight to establish itself in the world, did anything and by whatever means possible in order to erase the tracks of the Gnostics, whose vestiges were too clear and open and vast in revealing the truth. Therefore - although rivers of blood were soon spilled by the imposition of Christianity in its Catholic form - in the first centuries, it relied more upon diplomatic methods in order to burn books, falsify others, and collect those of greatest initiatic importance, that today are hidden in the Vatican. Naturally, within them a great deal is expressed in metaphors and symbols that the Catholics did not make any effort to decipher. Now we are forced to clarify in order to fulfill our mission, although after eighteen centuries of delay...

The Gnostic Church is a school of initiatic mysteries.

These mysteries were revealed by the Elohim or Holy Masters through different means, according to the race and place; these vary only in their form, since in their substance they are identical.

 

[dlamberth]

what do these scriptures have to do with the gnostic books?

I can't say how the Gnostic Christian's view those verses, but through gnosis (little g) the picture is interesting when exploring the "Heart of Christ" while sitting "in" the skin of Christ.

 

[Chesterton]

The Gnostic Church is the church of Christ, the church preached by Jesus, the divine Rabbi of Galilee, with all of its sacred initiatic mysteries. It is the church of redemption, the primitive Christian church that suffered all of the attacks from the Catholic sectarianism, whose doctrine was altered to accommodate its aims and egotistic interest. The Gnostic Church possesses the holiest revelations, interprets, and presents the truth in its pristine purity without spots to dim it.

Our doctrine is science and religion at the same time. As science, it depends upon something superior, supreme, infinite, and parascientific (which is very elevated and greater than the lower, vulgar knowledge) for the incarnation of the knowledge par excellence. As a religion it exerts that the man, as supreme human hierarchy, can awaken in himself the divine powers that pertain to him in order to one day attain the Holy Union with the primary cause that was his genesis. Within this dualism, it is respecting that Latin principle that states Primum intelligere, deinde credere... [First understand, and then believe…]

The difference between Catholicism and the Gnostic Church is based upon the fact that for us, Christ is a substance and its existence on the Earth a fact or a cosmic-biological phenomenon, whereas the Catholics only give importance to the historical-material fact, thus ignoring the true mystery of this Christonic substance...

The Catholic Church, in its fight to establish itself in the world, did anything and by whatever means possible in order to erase the tracks of the Gnostics, whose vestiges were too clear and open and vast in revealing the truth. Therefore - although rivers of blood were soon spilled by the imposition of Christianity in its Catholic form - in the first centuries, it relied more upon diplomatic methods in order to burn books, falsify others, and collect those of greatest initiatic importance, that today are hidden in the Vatican. Naturally, within them a great deal is expressed in metaphors and symbols that the Catholics did not make any effort to decipher. Now we are forced to clarify in order to fulfill our mission, although after eighteen centuries of delay...

The Gnostic Church is a school of initiatic mysteries.

These mysteries were revealed by the Elohim or Holy Masters through different means, according to the race and place; these vary only in their form, since in their substance they are identical.

Since you're new here, you might want to check the Statement of Purpose for this forum, particularly the rule about promotion of non-Christian religions:

Statement of Purpose - Christianity and World Religion Statement of Purpose

 

[RaymondG]

Since you're new here, you might want to check the Statement of Purpose for this forum, particularly the rule about promotion of non-Christian religions:

Statement of Purpose - Christianity and World Religion Statement of Purpose

It always puzzles me when someone tries to shut the mouth of others. The truth is light. Light never ask darkest to leave the room so it can enter or remain. When the light is there the darkness is compelled to go. What concern is there with this man speaking of the light is here?...unless we fear that he has light which may expose darkness...

 

[Sanoy]

what do these scriptures have to do with the gnostic books?

indeed.

 

[brinny]

indeed.

LOL!

Well you've made an astute point there.

Exactly.

 

[Goatee]

I also think that the CC had a big role to play in making sure that it was the only church people would follow and this, may very well have been done in underhanded ways!

I have always said that i 'think' that the CC is not the church that Our Lord Jesus Christ started, or, at the very least, would recognise today.

 

[Chesterton]

It always puzzles me when someone tries to shut the mouth of others. The truth is light. Light never ask darkest to leave the room so it can enter or remain. When the light is there the darkness is compelled to go. What concern is there with this man speaking of the light is here?...unless we fear that he has light which may expose darkness...

If I wanted to try and silence him I'd have reported him. I'm just trying to help a newbie out by showing him the rules he apparently didn't know about.

 

[football5680]

That's an interesting theory except that Gnosticism predates christianity.

What? It sounds like you are disagreeing with me while affirming exactly what I said. The fact that it predates Christianity kinda proves the fact that it is a separate religion which adopted some Christian elements.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That's an interesting theory except that Gnosticism predates christianity.

If Gnosticism predates Christianity then it follows that Gnosticism is a syncretic tradition that adopted Christian elements--the very theory you seem to be dismissing with this comment.

No, of course the sky isn't blue, have you seen it? It's blue.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jaybird88]

indeed.

and that means they do or dont have anything to do with the gnostics books?