Gnostic Discussion

[ViaCrucis]

yeah because secret knowledge is just plain crazy talk.

Matthew 13:11
And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

You wrote:

the secret Jesus bloodline that that became the merovingian bloodline, that makes a lot of sense, the descendants of Jesus became the corrupt leaders of europe, starving the people and waging endless wars.

Yes, that is crazy talk.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jaybird88]

You wrote:



Yes, that is crazy talk.

-CryptoLutheran

so you really believe that this post:

i thought dan brown wrote on the secret Jesus bloodline that that became the merovingian bloodline, that makes a lot of sense, the descendants of Jesus became the corrupt leaders of europe, starving the people and waging endless

this is me teaching the descendants of Jesus are corrupt leaders? and even with the sarcastic "that makes a lot of sense" right in the middle of it you still cant see it, wow . . .wow . . . .there is no way you are that absent minded, i refuse to believe it, you would literally have to have the mentality of a mentally challenged person.

 

[dlamberth]

I don't see how acknowledging one event illuminating our perspective on the world is all that limiting, but maybe I am missing something.

In my de-conversation I wasn't looking at any individual event where I saw a limited God in the Church. What I was looking at is the extent of and how Cosmic wide and deep God is in a person's experience of the Divine. Think of it not only as Christ in a Body/God expression but also Cosmos wide as well. The Cosmic wide aspect of Christ is something that comes to light through the gnostic way of knowing God.

And that's something I find impoverishing, because there's something profound in connecting with other people, at least for me.

An interesting thing about mysticism that maybe your not understanding is that it does exactly what your looking for. When one sees the Divine in every soul and even in Humanity, one can not help but find a profound and deep connection with others.

And that's the greatest weakness I see in New Age spirituality, the spiritual consumerism and individualism behind it all.

I have a spiritual menu of sorts that I run everything through. New Age spirituality, because of it's pseudo mysticism tendencies fails on all accounts. My menu goes like this:

God/Truth can not be sold
God/Truth can not be bought
God/Truth is not money
God/Truth is not phenomenon
God/Truth is not paraphernalia
God/Truth is not extraordinary claims
God/Truth is not narcissistic
The teacher is not God/Truth

 

[FireDragon76]

In my de-conversation I wasn't looking at any individual event where I saw a limited God in the Church. What I was looking at is the extent of and how Cosmic wide and deep God is in a person's experience of the Divine. Think of it not only as Christ in a Body/God expression but also Cosmos wide as well. The Cosmic wide aspect of Christ is something that comes to light through the gnostic way of knowing God.

This is not necessarily true that such a perspective is excluded altogether in Christianity, of Christ as a cosmic presence. This is particularly emphasized in the eastern tradition but it is not absent in other traditions altogether.

An interesting thing about mysticism that maybe your not understanding is that it does exactly what your looking for. When one sees the Divine in every soul and even in Humanity, one can not help but find a profound and deep connection with others.

Why must I abandon Christian faith to acknowledge this? You present a false dilemma. When we serve others, particularly those in need, we serve Christ. That does not save us, but we do it because we are saved.

I doubt you understood Christian faith except in a shallow way. Christianity has mysticism. But mysticism is not all that being a Christian is about.

 

[dlamberth]

This is particularly emphasized in the eastern tradition but it is not absent in other traditions altogether.

That's true. The Eastern traditions have more of a Panentheist perspective. But it completely absent in Western Fundamental traditions.

Why must I abandon Christian faith to acknowledge this? You present a false dilemma.

The way I've come to terms with the dilemma is that I've come to realize that first there's Christ, and than there's the Church. And the dilemma that way I understand it is that those two, the Church and Christ, very rarely they cross paths.

When we serve others, particularly those in need, we serve Christ.

Amen!! What I'd add from my place today is that we not only need to server others, we must also see Christ with in them.
Here's a story as told by Mother Teresa of Calcutta about one of her Sisters that brings together Service, Mysticism with a Christ that is very alive, vibrant. I love this story when found while reading William Johnston's "The Inner Eye of Love".

“During the mass,” I said, “you saw that the priest touched the body of Christ with great love and tenderness. When you touch the poor today, you too will be touching the body of Christ. Give them the same love and tenderness.” When they return several hours later, the new sister came up to me, her face shining with joy, “I have been touching the body of Christ of three hours,“ she said. I asked her what she had done, “Just as we arrived, the sister brought in a man covered with maggots. He had been picked up from drain. I have been taking care of him, I have been touching Christ. I know it was him,” she said.

I doubt you understood Christian faith except in a shallow way.

Maybe, maybe not.

Christianity has mysticism. But mysticism is not all that being a Christian is about.

True, it's not what Christianity is all about. But If one is pulled towards seeing a Christ eliminated Universe, which I believe Jesus was pointing towards, that takes a bit of gnostic type of mysticism.

 

[Silmarien]

True, it's not what Christianity is all about. But If one is pulled towards seeing a Christ eliminated Universe, which I believe Jesus was pointing towards, that takes a bit of gnostic type of mysticism.

So... where exactly does the demiurge and unrelenting disdain for the material universe come into play here?

 

[Zoness]

That hatred of the material is why Gnosticism isn't for me. In fact I'd say many Christians are more Gnostic than I am, especially in Evangelical parlance where one must "not be of the world" and to hate the self as a sinful object and the material temptations of the world.

Personally, I like the universe and existing and spiritual stuff is dense and inaccessible for many people. Gnosticism probably made more sense in an era past.

 

[Silmarien]

That hatred of the material is why Gnosticism isn't for me. In fact I'd say many Christians are more Gnostic than I am, especially in Evangelical parlance where one must "not be of the world" and to hate the self as a sinful object and the material temptations of the world.

Yeah, I've noticed stuff that I would consider fullblown Gnosticism from some of the fundamentalists on the forum. Whenever someone pushes the idea that the Holy Spirit is giving them special insight into biblical interpretation, it really just screams Gnostic secret knowledge at me. And then everything you mentioned as well.

Personally, I like the universe and existing and spiritual stuff is dense and inaccessible for many people. Gnosticism probably made more sense in an era past.

I'm not sure it ever made sense, really. There's a reason both the Christians and the Neoplatonists were getting pretty cross-eyed at them.

I think one problem is that we just conflate Gnosticism and mysticism these days, which is silly because every spiritual path can incorporate mysticism. Mysticism is not eclectic Roman New Age spiritualism.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That hatred of the material is why Gnosticism isn't for me. In fact I'd say many Christians are more Gnostic than I am, especially in Evangelical parlance where one must "not be of the world" and to hate the self as a sinful object and the material temptations of the world.

Personally, I like the universe and existing and spiritual stuff is dense and inaccessible for many people. Gnosticism probably made more sense in an era past.

There's no doubt in my mind that a kind of Gnosticism-lite is present in much of contemporary western Christianity. An emphatic rejection of the material world as evil, and an escapist attitude of fleeing the world to an otherworldly realm of pure spirit "heaven".

Historic, orthodox Christian teaching is emphatically Incarnational, redemption in orthodox Christian thought is not about escapism, but resurrection.

But I've noticed that many serious theologians, both Catholic and Protestant, have taken strong stands against this trend. And that gives me a measure of hope.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dlamberth]

So... where exactly does the demiurge and unrelenting disdain for the material universe come into play here?

If talking about the gnostic experience (little g) which I was, there is no disdain for the material universe. In fact quite the opposite. That kind of thinking only exist in the Gnostic (big G) Christian world.

 

[Silmarien]

If talking about the gnostic experience (little g) which I was, there is no disdain for the material universe. In fact quite the opposite. That kind of thinking only exist in the Gnostic (big G) Christian world.

So you're appropriating the word "gnosticism" to refer to beliefs and practices completely unrelated to it? That's a bit confusing.

 

[dlamberth]

So you're appropriating the word "gnosticism" to refer to beliefs and practices completely unrelated to it? That's a bit confusing.

It's not at all confusing if gnosticism (little g) is properly understood. Please understand that in this post read (little g) for every instance of my use of the word "gnosticism" or "gnostic" to differentiate it from Gnostic Christianity. For a definition: gnosticism is wisdom gained by direct inner experience.

I'd say and can give examples where the gnostic experience is basic to one of the many ways that Human Beings gain knowledge. Which is why I feel that all Human Beings have a little bit of mystic in them. In the spiritual world the gnostic experience is basic to what mysticism is. As an example in it's use to describe mystics, the Sufi mystics are sometimes called "gnostics" instead of using the words mystics. With out the gnostic experience, mysticism can not be. They go hand in had. It can be incorporated into a particular religion or outside of any and all religions.

 

[dlamberth]

yeah because secret knowledge is just plain crazy talk.

Matthew 13:11
And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

I don't think that conspiracy theories were in His mind at the time. But I do believe that there is a way of seeing the Kingdom of Heaven that may seem like a secret because it's a different way of seeing God everywhere one turns. But will seem like a secret to those who live in denial of even the possibilities.

 

[jaybird88]

I don't think that conspiracy theories were in His mind at the time. But I do believe that there is a way of seeing the Kingdom of Heaven that may seem like a secret because it's a different way of seeing God everywhere one turns. But will seem like a secret to those who live in denial of even the possibilities.

Jesus taught the leaders in His day hid knowledge. history shows us that leaders have always hidden knowledge. but the idea of leaders in our own time hiding knowledge is unthinkable? why is that, is it because the leaders of today lie everytime they open their mouth or Christian leaders that do nothing but fight with each other on who has the correct doctrine, preach in front of large crowds and go home to million dollar mansions.

 

[dlamberth]

Jesus taught the leaders in His day hid knowledge. history shows us that leaders have always hidden knowledge. but the idea of leaders in our own time hiding knowledge is unthinkable? why is that, is it because the leaders of today lie everytime they open their mouth or Christian leaders that do nothing but fight with each other on who has the correct doctrine, preach in front of large crowds and go home to million dollar mansions.

Well, clearly we have different people in mind as Christian leaders. We also have different ideas of what hidden knowledge is.

 

[Radagast]

But I'm convinced that gnosticism runs through out the Bible.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Radagast]

the Sufi mystics are sometimes called "gnostics" instead of using the words mystics.

That's because there's a great deal of Neoplatonism in Sufi thought.

 

[Radagast]

There's no doubt in my mind that a kind of Gnosticism-lite is present in much of contemporary western Christianity.

That's always been true. Every few centuries, it erupts in full-blown heresy.

 

[Radagast]

When I learned the historical facts surrounding the choice of only four "true" gospels, and then why any other gospels were literally suppressed, I was deeply disturbed.

Those things never happened. We started with the 4 canonical gospels. The other, fake, gospels came later.

 

[redleghunter]

That hatred of the material is why Gnosticism isn't for me. In fact I'd say many Christians are more Gnostic than I am, especially in Evangelical parlance where one must "not be of the world" and to hate the self as a sinful object and the material temptations of the world.

Personally, I like the universe and existing and spiritual stuff is dense and inaccessible for many people. Gnosticism probably made more sense in an era past.

Walking in the Spirit and not the flesh is not a Gnostic concept. It's actually in the Pauline epistles especially Romans 8. When one says be not of this world they speak of not living in worldly sin but have our sites on the heavenly with Christ as our example.

Romans 12 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

The sure hope for Christians is their bodily resurrection like Christ.