Gnostic Discussion

[ViaCrucis]

Some scholars do put Thomas as contemporary to the 4 canonical Gospels . However, none of the early church fathers quote from Thomas. Especially the sub apostolic era of Ignatius and Polycarp.

And as best as I can tell, the early date hypothesis isn't so much about the present text, but rather a kind of core text which existed earlier. Dating the text is made difficult because the GoT effectively contains no narrative structure, but consists entirely of disconnected logia. It may be tempting to imagine that the GoT, therefore, may be connected with the hypothetical Q-text, but Thomas demonstrates clear Gnostic features that, not as mature as narrative Gnostic works such as the Gospel of Mary or the Gospel of Truth, is such that it is assumed that only the initiated will comprehend the meaning of the sayings as they are presented. It may be an early Gnostic work, and it may ultimately be derived from an earlier work or collection of logia circulating in the early period; those are fair points of conjecture to make. But treating Thomas, as-is, as borne of apostolic pedigree is probably bordering on the highly imaginitive.

Thomas, however, is often treated as a "fifth Gospel", as though it carried the same kind of importance in the early Christian period as the four Canonical Gospels--there is, however, no reason to believe this is the case as no evidence exists. The acceptance of the four Canonical Gospels is early, by the time of Irenaeus the fact that there are four and only four Gospels is taken for granted, comparing them to the four cardinal directions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Radagast]

the oldest gospel complete book is in the 600s, many hundred years after Thomas.

You need to check your facts. The complete Thomas manuscript is 4th century, as is the complete NT, but there are many large fragments of the NT dating back to the 2nd century.

 

[Radagast]

I'd word the definition you gave a bit differently.

I was quoting the dictionary.

Nothing but trouble can come from using words in highly individual, nonstandard ways.

 

[ViaCrucis]

1 John 2:15
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
what was it about the world the Gnostics put so much emphasis on?

A fundamental misunderstanding of what "world" here seems to be the problem. The world here isn't material creation, but the present order of things--where death and sin have dominance.

The word kosmos means in its most basic sense "order" or "arrangement", and by secondary sense refers to the material universe or this "world"; the secondary sense is arrived at from the pre-Socratic philosophers who sought to understand how reality was arranged or ordered.

The word can also indicate government, in the sense of an arrangement of how things are so ordered. At present death, decay, sin, violence, and such things dominate; the way of the world is greed, malice, war, violence--these are antithetical to the way of God who is a God of justice, mercy, and life. Which is why we believe that God is saving, healing, restoring, renewing the world. We believe that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" because God sent His Son into the world not to condemn the world, but to save it. Hearkening back to the words of the ancient Prophets, that the day would come when God will make all things new, when the wolf will lay down with the lamb, and the lion eat straw like an ox, where swords are beaten into plowshares and nobody will even remember how to conduct war. Indeed, the Revelator having written, "See, I make all things new!" and that there will be no more death or suffering.

It is not the material creation that is the problem, it is the reality of sin and death that is the problem. It is the fact that human beings are broken under the weight of sin, bent and curved inward to seek our own selves instead of having our sights set outward toward others--to love our neighbor as ourselves, to feed, to clothe, to give of ourselves freely. It's not this skin and bone that is the problem, it's not the dirt under our feet, or the trees, or the beasts of the field, or the mountains, or the oceans, or the stars, that are the problem--it's that there is death, sin, and the tragedy of violence and suffering that is the problem.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Radagast]

It is not the material creation that is the problem

And this is where Christianity differs from Gnosticism.

 

[dlamberth]

I was quoting the dictionary.

I was using language that comes from over 30 years experience.

Nothing but trouble can come from using words in highly individual, nonstandard ways.

If you don't mind, from the dictionary's definition of gnosis and the one that I gave, what's the difference? And what trouble might arise with the definition I gave?

 

[Robban]

I was using language that comes from over 30 years experience.


If you don't mind, from the dictionary's definition of gnosis and the one that I gave, what's the difference? And what trouble might arise with the definition I gave?

Radagast has left CF,

?

 

[Robban]

I am not clear over what this gnostic stuff is about,
so I found a vid "Gnostic teaching" lasted over an hour,

Could have done something or one hundred things more meaningful instead.

The giveaway was the background music, some dreamy some dramatic,

Made me think of "knowing what buttons to push,"

gives a more sensational effect.

I got the impression that it was a bunch of, don,t know how to describe.

Trying, no, not trying but more or less claiming to understand the unundersandable.

What is permanent and unchanging is truth.

It is told of the Chassidic master Rabbi Pinchas of Koritz that he toiled for truth for twenty one years,

(Yeah, I,m pretty good at whistling up high water marks)

Twenty one years,
seven years he laboured to banish falsehood from his heart.

Seven years to recognize the truth.

And seven years to make the truth penetrate his heart.


But cannot one live a happy life without knowing all the ins and outs of everything?

A soul may descend to earth and live happily for 70-80 years,
for the sole purpose of doing a fellow a favor, spiritual or material.

 

[jaybird88]

And this is where Christianity differs from Gnosticism.

another difference in Gnostic and roman Christians. Gnostics may invite you to worship, you refuse, they tell you no worries. romans tell you how to worship, you refuse, they may kill you and your entire family.

 

[dlamberth]

I am not clear over what this gnostic stuff is about,

Your wonderful signature (below) can be taken and internalized on many levels. Being a mystic, I have no doubt that the inner experiential (gnostic) trajectory for Rabbi Schneur Zalman would be one of those levels.

"Words are the pen of the heart;
song is the pen of the soul."

Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi.

 

[Robban]

Your wonderful signature (below) can be taken and internalized on many levels. Being a mystic, I have no doubt that the inner experiential (gnostic) trajectory for Rabbi Schneur Zalman would be one of those levels.

"Words are the pen of the heart;
song is the pen of the soul."

Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi.

No doubt.

The Crown Jewels are kept in the Palace.

Mysticism?

But to the Palace there is a short long path,
and a long short path.

When one comes to the fork in the road,
which path to take?



But people give names to things that seem out of reach for them
and therefore often shunned.

 

[dlamberth]

But to the Palace there is a short long path,
and a long short path.

When one comes to the fork in the road,
which path to take?

Perhaps both?

 

[Robban]

Perhaps both?

The short long path is the easy fix path,

Many who take that path fall away when met by difficulties.

 

[dlamberth]

The short long path is the easy fix path,

Many who take that path fall away when met by difficulties.

I'm in agreement. In the same breath, not many of us are able to find the long path or even know of it's existence until we spend time exploring the short paths. In my case, it was 20 years. And yes, with difficulties and falling away several times. But there was this explainable pull that kept calling.

 

[Robban]

I'm in agreement. In the same breath, not many of us are able to find the long path or even know of it's existence until we spend time exploring the short paths. In my case, it was 20 years. And yes, with difficulties and falling away several times. But there was this explainable pull that kept calling.

The long short path?