Girl that wrote anti gun violence essay killed with a gun

[disciple Clint]

We are enforcing the law....and "stop and frisk" laws turn up very few illegal weapons.

Think about that for a moment...why do you think that is? It's a pretty simple answer really...most criminals who use a gun in a crime aren't going to walk around with it. If they haven't committed the crime yet, they leave it at home (it's amazing how little concern about needing a gun in public most violent criminals have) and if they have committed a crime with it, they get rid of it.

Why keep it and risk getting caught? There are thousands of people out there practically advertising they own a gun. A lot of criminals rob the houses/cars of gun owners looking for guns to steal. A recent study showed millions of guns were "lost" or stolen over a decade.

That feels like a pretty important point. The "gun rights" advocates like to talk about how gun regulations only punish the "responsible gun owner"....but if millions of gun owners are either having their guns stolen or lose them (more likely engaging in illegal sales) and essentially flooding the black market with guns, then they aren't really very responsible are they?



Why not at least create a gun registry database and register all new gun purchases? It would be a great tool for helping law enforcement agencies solve gun crimes. As it stands now, the database is a stack of paper files that fills a parking lot full of storage units because gun rights advocates won't allow an electronic registry.



I haven't seen any evidence that it deters crime....whether or not it's implementation is "racist" is a separate issue.

You may not have seen the evidence but it exists.
my experience is that gang members DO walk around with their guns because it they left them at home they would have nothing to shoot back with when they are attacked by other gangs members. legal gun owners do not sell guns on the black market for the simple reason that guns on the black market, which are stolen guns, do not get the price that legal guns can be sold for so there is no incentive for a legal gun owner to sell a legal gun on the black market.

 

[RDKirk]

What is infinitely more cost effective is to try to solve the root cause of the problem. And the root cause of the problem is mentally unstable people getting access to firearms.

Any talk about arming teachers is a red herring, that is treating the symptom of the problem and not the root cause.

Talk of arming teachers is a red herring. Talk of gun control is also a red herring.

The root of the problem is not mentally unstable persons getting access to firearms, the root is a culture that creates so many homicidal mentally unstable people.

 

[disciple Clint]

One case in particular that absolutely broke my heart was a man stopped in NC for speeding.

He was a Florida business owner that had a 15 year seasonal business, every November after Thanksgiving he drove up to NY/Maine and bought $200,000 worth of X'mas, drove them back to Florida via a semi-truck caravan and sold them in Florida. After all expenses and taxes were paid, he netted around $250,000 profit.

He was pulled over and the cops asked him if they could search his car, he said sure, and they found his duffle bag full of cash, $200k. He had his business license along with the contacts of all the growers whom he bought trees from. He showed the cops his paperwork and business history and explained to them in detail several times that his business was a cash business and he had been doing this for years and there was nothing illegal about it. Cops agreed, but they took his money anyway and told him "take it up with the courts..."

It took him 4 months and $10k to get his money back but by that time he lost out on X'mas. Because of the nature of his business and the fact he made his entire yearly nut from the X'mas season, he ended up losing his business. He could not recover from that loss.

The police who pulled him over had zero doubt he was legitimate. But they had a "directive" from up high to confiscate ANY amount of cash over $1000 no matter what. Period. Because the department was cash poor and because of the provision in the Patriot Act, confiscating money was the same as getting money. When they confiscated money, they got to use it, but when the government had to pay it back, it came from a "different" pool of money... So in effect, Law Enforcement agencies and municipalities were essentially robbing the public for money...

And believe it or not, THIS PROVISION IS STILL IN EXISTENCE TODAY. The only State in the Union that has passed legislation against this is NM and i think one other State... The rest allow police to seize property/money under "suspicion" even to the point where the citizen is NOT charged with a crime... they just take it...

One question. Why would a person conducting a legal business buying product from other legal businesses need to deal in cash? That is just not normal.

 

[RDKirk]

This has nothing to do with the points you raised....but I wonder why he just didnt bank it. Having 200K in a bag must surely be a major risk that's so avoidable.

Police are able to confiscate cars, homes, cash, anything of value without a conviction, without charges, without even an arrest. All they have to do is say the magic words: "Suspicion of narcotics dealing."

Police in Oklahoma can pull you over to the side of the road and use a device to drain any debit or gift cards you have on your person. No charges, not even an arrest.

And you don't get it back.

 

[Zoii]

Talk of arming teachers is a red herring. Talk of gun control is also a red herring.

The root of the problem is not mentally unstable persons getting access to firearms, the root is a culture that creates so many homicidal mentally unstable people.

Are they though?- I mean do they have a diagnosed mental illness?

I understood most shooting deaths were domestically related. In the case of mass shooters, I understood that while many people would recall odd or reclusive behaviours about the shooter, they normally didnt have a diagnosed mental illness.... they were just socially mal-adjusted.

I know the USA will never change laws around gun ownership.... is there any type of consensus about what the people DO want there?

 

[disciple Clint]

The courts agree to pat downs of 'outer clothing' for weapons. Not making people empty their pockets to try to find other contraband. The police have to have a Reasonable Suspicion that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is going to be committed shortly, not somewhere out in the distant future.
This isn't what was happening with stop and frisk.

A legal Terry stop has parameters that are guidelines for the police to follow, the problem is they don't, and when they don't it is Unconstitutional.

Absolutely true but all we are looking for here is guns so that we can keep people from being shot so a pat down is all we need.

 

[Zoii]

Police are able to confiscate cars, homes, cash, anything of value without a conviction, without charges, without even an arrest. All they have to do is say the magic words: "Suspicion of narcotics dealing."

Police in Oklahoma can pull you over to the side of the road and use a device to drain any debit or gift cards you have on your person. No charges, not even an arrest.

And you don't get it back.

Yes well....200K in a bag...that was kinda silly. Put the cash in a bank - safer for everyone.

 

[disciple Clint]

The problem with Stop and Frisk is simple, the State will abuse said law and power. That is what the State does, they abuse power and they extort/abuse the citizenry if/when given the chance.

Just look at the Patriot Act. There is a provision within the Patriot Act (or similar legislation) that allows State and Government agencies to confiscate money or property of "suspected" drug dealers, terrorists, or other "enemy of the people" types. Similarly "while" the money is confiscated the department/agency in question gets to use that money. Doesn't that sound like a good idea? Whatever could go wrong with that?

A consequence of that was that during "routine" traffic stops police were pulling over citizens and asking them point blank how much money do they have on them? If they had large amounts of cash on them, (like over $1000) then the police would confiscate that money under the provisions of the Patriot Act. Since it took around $3k to $5k in legal fees and 3 to 12 months to get the money back (and no, you could not recover legal fees) vast majority of citizens just elected not to fight it-- Regardless of how legitimate they were. Note, many of these citizens were NOT charged with a crime.

Stop and Frisk is/would be a serious and gross infringement on our Constitutional Rights. You talk about slippery slopes, this would be one.

I hate to ask but do you have any evidence. I am not trying to argue with you I just want to know if this happened or if someone told you it happened and now you are saying it happened based on what you were told by someone that you trust.

 

[Sketcher]

I see what your sayng and agree - You exert strict drug laws in your country and wouldnt want that changed....and so should also implement strict gun laws.

I'll restate what I said differently: The strict drug laws do not work. If the government can't enforce them effectively, I have no reason to believe they will enforce gun laws effectively. Drugs remain in the hands of criminals, guns would as well. Heck, a good amount of these shootings happen because of drugs. Another good amount is because of revenge for violence that has already happened. Both would still be in demand with or without a gun ban. Therefore these crimes would still continue with a gun ban, and externalities like stray bullets will continue to hit little girls. And the price we would pay? The honest people would not be as free and as armed to defend themselves against the vicious people.

 

[disciple Clint]

Although I myself carry a gun, and I would not call for anyone to be unable to defend himself with one, I still think arming teachers is a bum idea.

First, as classrooms are currently designed, it's tactically stupid. Whether teachers are armed or not, classrooms should be equipped with an emergency exit operated by the teacher's pincode, electronic badge, or some biometric method (with a backup release available in the main office).

That way, the armed teacher is able to effectively cover the students' retreat from the room. Or if the teacher were unarmed, at least throwing himself at the assailant would buy time for the students to escape.

As it is now, the rooms are practically indefensible death traps. If there were a heavily armed assailant at the door, a third of the students would freeze, a third of the students would scatter like roaches, and the remaining third would gang up on the teacher while he was trying to aim at the assailant. Given an exit, there is a very good chance the teacher can get them herded toward it. With no exit: Guaranteed pandemonium.

Well we cant rebuild all the schools. Some of those teachers are prior combat experienced vets. I trust them with a gun.

 

[RDKirk]

Are they though?- I mean do they have a diagnosed mental illness?

I understood most shooting deaths were domestically related. In the case of mass shooters, I understood that while many people would recall odd or reclusive behaviours about the shooter, they normally didnt have a diagnosed mental illness.... they were just socially mal-adjusted.

I know the USA will never change laws around gun ownership.... is there any type of consensus about what the people DO want there?

Notice that we have not been saying "diagnosed mental illness." We're talking about homicidal mentally unstable people.

American culture is currently producing an abnormal number of people, whether diagnosed or not, who believe they ought to go out and kill large numbers of people.

It's not the guns--the guns have always been there. It's likely, however, that the same factors that produce homicidal mentally unstable people also produces gun mania (the modern gun culture more extremely armed than even gun owners of the past had deemed necessary).

 

[RDKirk]

Well we cant rebuild all the schools. Some of those teachers are prior combat experienced vets. I trust them with a gun.

Cutting holes in the walls doesn't require rebuilding the schools.

Whether the teachers are prior combat vets (and that percentage is actually vanishingly small), the classrooms are still undefendable death traps--and those same combat vets would tell you that.

On the issue of building schools, though, did you know that it's currently popular to use prison plans for schools? They're being explicitly designed to prevent emergency exits.

 

[RDKirk]

This has nothing to do with the points you raised....but I wonder why he just didnt bank it. Having 200K in a bag must surely be a major risk that's so avoidable.

As I said, it's not just cash. It can be your car or your house or any debit cards you have.

 

[RDKirk]

I hate to ask but do you have any evidence. I am not trying to argue with you I just want to know if this happened or if someone told you it happened and now you are saying it happened based on what you were told by someone that you trust.

Google: "asset forfeiture."

 

[Ana the Ist]

really I keep thinking about the coaches and teachers who died trying to protect their students. If they had a gun instead of their bodies to protect the kids the shooter would have been stopped

I tend to think of the parents of the shooters...who made either no effort or minimal effort to keep their gun from their kid.

If they had, the shootings wouldn't have likely happened in the first place.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You may not have seen the evidence but it exists.
my experience is that...*snip*

Just pump the brakes there Clint....because we aren't talking about "your experience"....we're talking about evidence.

We can look at the results of all the arrests that came from "stop and frisk'. They didn't get a lot of illegal guns.

legal gun owners do not sell guns on the black market for the simple reason that guns on the black market, which are stolen guns, do not get the price that legal guns can be sold for so there is no incentive for a legal gun owner to sell a legal gun on the black market.

Just because it's amusing at this point...you think all those reports of "lost guns" are really just people who put their gun somewhere and forgot about it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Notice that we have not been saying "diagnosed mental illness." We're talking about homicidal mentally unstable people.

American culture is currently producing an abnormal number of people, whether diagnosed or not, who believe they ought to go out and kill large numbers of people.

It's not the guns--the guns have always been there. It's likely, however, that the same factors that produce homicidal mentally unstable people also produces gun mania (the modern gun culture more extremely armed than even gun owners of the past had deemed necessary).

Labeling a murderer "mentally unstable" or "crazy" is a harmful myth that you really shouldn't spread. You don't have the ability to diagnose people based off a news article...so unless it's talking about some very specific things, it's a bad generalization.

 

[disciple Clint]

Just pump the brakes there Clint....because we aren't talking about "your experience"....we're talking about evidence.

We can look at the results of all the arrests that came from "stop and frisk'. They didn't get a lot of illegal guns.




Just because it's amusing at this point...you think all those reports of "lost guns" are really just people who put their gun somewhere and forgot about it?

No we are talking about your experience and the more you talk the more questions I have about your experience.

 

[RDKirk]

Labeling a murderer "mentally unstable" or "crazy" is a harmful myth that you really shouldn't spread. You don't have the ability to diagnose people based off a news article...so unless it's talking about some very specific things, it's a bad generalization.

Yeah, I am going to generalize someone who walks into a church or a synagogue or an Amish school or an elementary school and opens fire as "mentally unstable" because I'm just not going to put that behavior into the category of "sane," not even for the US.

 

[disciple Clint]

That's quite a bit different than a stop and frisk while walking down the street. There is a certain expectation of privacy when you are not in any specific place that requires security checks.

Unless you want the entire country, from sea to shining sea to function like an airport security check, I would not argue for stop and frisk.

I want to save the lives of innocent people. It is exactly the same objective as the checks at airports and court houses