Giant Skeletons Found?

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Let me rephrase to pour water on your fire ken. Sons of God is taken to signify, godly men. Mean is used here as in the word meaning, or definition. Not mean as in the word brutal. You twist my words. Also, before Christ in the flesh, the Word of God was God. It was not found with the fallen angels. I have read Enoch. And as it is incomplete, and thoroughly talks of demons, fallen angels, and the hierarchy thereof, I tend not to indulge in it. Though it is tempting to indulge in books of things that pique our curiosity, concerning giants and so forth as it seems like an easy way to learn about stuff n a clear concise manner. But God does not want us to learn sin. You cannot fashion words of light because of the darkness. Also, it has a very 2nd century thought on the origins of the world and do not even resemble anything Moses wrote in Genesis. The work wasnt even written by Enoch but is in fact falsely attributed to him. It is largely at odds with scriptures. There is only a few things that are in agreement and that is why the whole of the Bible only eludes to one thing Enoch said. The book of Enoch was made based upon that one verse. Then everything else was filled in with Jewish myth and fables of which scriptures warn you of. But yet all your life, you were not privy to the book of Enoch, and in fact were saved without it never even considering it, so why do you question the very saving grace and power which did in fact save you from the darkness you had found yourself in? Trust that God is just. He told you the truth. Why do you not believe it?

Exactly right. The book of Enoch is forgery, falsely written in Enoch's name.

 

[DeaconDean]

It was over 1000 years, which is a 6th of the time we've been on earth, so I definitely wouldn't say it was relatively short.

You basing that on your conception of time. Not that that's wrong, but, even the bible does not set in concrete what the length of time is. I can show from scripture that at one day was longer than 24 hours.

I don't know why it was possible, no one does. All I know is that the bible talks of giants, before and after the flood, and that the bible quotes from, and references Enoch, and it also talks of it.

Here again, the "giants" spoken of after the flood are rare. Just as today, there are occasionally an individual who might grow to 9 or 10 foot, but that is very, very rare. So your argument does not bear into the discussion.

There are greek texts of enoch, that I don't believer are to be trusted, but there are Ethiopian and Aramaic and Hebraic books of Enoch, that all line up with one another.

You still refuse to believe. The only Greek text of Enoch is quoted from in the LXX. And what was the LXX? The Hebrew translated into the Greek. Again, you need to do more research. Which once again, shows the text was written several thousand years after the fact.

There are more than one book of enoch, there's three I think.

Again, do your research. There are 4. And none of them were recognized by the Jews or Christians.

I've only been reading the first one so far, but it's done nothing but line perfectly up with scripture, and it even sheds light on some confusing parts of scripture. So long as you're not reading the greek (the text that talks of 3000 ells) it lines perfectly up with the bible. That verse 7:11 or whatever only exists in the greek, and isn't found in literally any other translation of Enoch. All the other versions, Aramaic, Hebraic, and Ethiopian don't mention it. That verse doesn't exist. It stops at 7:6, and then begins chapter 8.

I supplied you sources. Dispute them.

And again, 1 Enoch does not line up with scripture.

While Adam did sin, causing mankind to fall with him. Enoch places the fall on a watcher. In fact, Enoch flatly denies that it was Lucifer/Satan/the Devil.

That, and evolution isn't real. It's only technically a theory at this point. I know they push it really hard, and there seems to be absolute proof, but there is no proof for it as of now, it's still technically, the "theory" of evolution.

That's right, and until its proven as truth, you cannot teach it for truth. Same with the book of Enoch.

Well, considering the bible talks of giants, and talks of the fallen mating with women, my guess is that women can give birth to them, so they couldn't of been huge at first, but that they just continually grew afterwards.

Did these "children" of the "giants" also inherit genetic material from the mother? We never hear of "giant" women.

Much like the liger - tiger lion hybrid. It exists now, "thanks" to science... but regardless, it's birthed in the womb of an ordinary tiger or lioness, but yet it grows much much larger than any of the two it's born from. It doesn't have the gene that tells it to stop growing, so compared to lions, or tigers, it's ridiculously huge! Much like ligers, I think it would have been with the giants. Small at birth, but they just didn't stop growing. I'm not sure on this, all that I know is that the bible says they mated with women, and that the result were giants. So it leaves me to believe, either they couldn't live through it, and died and therefore the babies weren't born, and the bible is false, or somehow the women could have their children.

Have you considered that one reason lions and tigers might breed is because they are the same genus? Just like horses and donkeys. Male horse breeding with female donkeys produce "jacks". Males donkey with female horse produce jennys.

Look into ligers. Like I said, they are born normally, but because of the hybridization, they don't have the gene that stunts growth, and they keep growing. They actually have a full grown liger that is still to this day growing larger, and it's already 900 lbs. (at least it was last time I looked into it)

Have they grown to 40 feet long, and weighed thousands of tons?

Actually, I just looked into it just for this. So apparently:
Lions on average weigh 550 lbs
Tigers can get up to 800 lbs

Ligers, on average are 1000 lbs, and there is one that was 1600 lbs. So, twice the weight of tigers, and over three times the size of lions. Yet, they're the same size when born, because they're sterile, and are born in the wombs of the animals they're brought forth from.

And here we go. Cats can't breed with dogs. Dogs can't breed with birds. etc. And if they could, then more than likely they would be "sterile".

I have never disputed that the bible speaks of giants. I do, however, dispute that there were men that grew to 40, 450, 4500, or even taller than that.

And it still does not diminish the fact, that you are taking a non-canonical book, and teaching it as truth.

That right there says more than I could ever say.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Is that different? Do we really know? That would make an ell somewhere on the order of a tenth of a cubit. A cubit, also, is not a standardized length. If I'm not mistaken, it was based on the length of a man's forearm, which differed between men, and it would have been shorter for people of that time period than ours.

A general rule was an "ell" equaled about 45". That is 3.75 feet.

And, I supplied a source for that.

It could have been a lot of things. So much wild speculation.

According to Jewish weights and measures, a cubit is generally agreed upon as being 18".

Oh, good. First it was twenty miles. Then you said it was 450 feet. Now, we're back up to two miles. Look, man, I don't care if you want to believe in the Book of Enoch or not, but you're using pure speculation and inconsistent math to disprove something weathered by thousands of years, a few translations and the crossing of multiple cultural paradigms. Your math is based on units of measurement that were relative when they were used, which are now thousands of years forgotten.

Impossible stature? Yeah, probably. Not to be included as canon? Of course not. Incredibly foolish argument against an ancient book? Definitely.

Are you just being obtuse for the shear pleasure?

One version say 3000 ells.

One version says 3000 cubits.

One version say 300 cubits.

You may argue with my math, but there is one thing you cannot argue with.

If the 300 cubit "unit" is the correct one, then both the "giants" and Noah's ark, were the same size!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Firstly, the children that these women gave birth to were angel/human hybrids. They grew rapidly.

We don't "evolve" never did. We are human and have human DNA. God put limitations on the growth of the human body by the blue print in our DNA..

In the womb, the fastest a baby grows is the last trimester.

Or doctor told us that if the baby maintained this growth rate for a year or two, it would be incredibly larger than typical humans..

The growth slows down.

And that applies how?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

As punishment for their great sin, the 200 fallen angels that "left their first estate" to mate with women, the first part of their punishment was to observe their offspring, the first generation of Nephilim, kill each other off in a great civil war.

The Book of Enoch may not be Canon but it is still a history book that is quoted by the Bible, runs parallel to the bible and gives light to what happened in those days.

Just because it is not considered Canon does not mean that it is not important information..

Unless you condemn the the Encyclopedia Britannica or the Origin of Species for not being Canon either.

Oh, and just as a side note........the full title of Darwin's racist, anti christian, farce of a book is:
"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life".

Again, the Apostle Paul quote from and use Greek poetry in his letters. Should we include these in the canon?

And here again, show me where Jude actually quotes from Enoch.

There is no "As it is written in Enoch", or any other quote which Jesus or the Apostles have said.

You can't because its not there.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mmksparbud]

You basing that on your conception of time. Not that that's wrong, but, even the bible does not set in concrete what the length of time is. I can show from scripture that at one day was longer than 24 hours.

You are not going to like this.
19. The yom problem
— Yom; The Biggest Biblical Creation Theory Obstacle —
The word yom
The Hebrew word for day is yom and this word appears in Scriptures over 1400 times. And without exception this word, when written in the singular sense, means day. And that's it. Never anything else. Eons are indicated with the plural form: days, as in the days of such and such. The most popular counter argument is that the meaning of our word is fiercely restricted to 'day' for about a thousand times in the sequential Scriptures, but in the secluded chapter of Genesis 1 means something completely different! But honestly, if in Genesis 1 our word should have meant 'long time' it would have said 'long time'. There are words available in Hebrew that mean just that. None of which occur in Genesis 1.
The word as used in Genesis 1 means day and day alone. There's no way around it, and every serious theory to make (systematic, not theological) sense out of Genesis 1 should first and foremost address the yom-problem.
The solution lies in the rule we've established four chapters ago:
Hold that thought (11)
In Hebrew Scriptures, and all models derived thereof, entities are reckoned solely after their behavior and not after their appearance. An entity is a behavior, not that which executes the behavior.
To define something, the Hebrew language does not look at outer parameters but always at the action that needs to be named. The time-length of a yom is an outer parameter and not regarded in Hebrew. Since time and space are the four dimensions of space-time, and we measure sizes in the spatial dimensions with a ruler, a clock is a ruler for time. An hour is a 'distance' just like a mile.
A yom is not defined as something that is 24 hours long, but something that executes the action that defines a yom. Strictly spoken, a yom does not even have to have a length, as long as it executes the typical behavior that defines it. Forcing a static 24-hour mold upon the word yom may appear quite pious but flies flat in the face of the Second Commandment.
A yom therefore is a phase of a continuum (whether space-time, complexity or something else) that consists of two periods: a 'dark' part and a 'light' part. During the dark part of a regular day people sleep and are disconnected. During the light part they communicate and work together. Any other manifestation of yom should display the same kind of darkness (elements not connected) and lightness (elements connected).
The yom problem in addressing Genesis 1

 

[DeaconDean]

Here is another problem with Enoch.

"Who will hereafter tread upon Mount Sinai; appear with his hosts; and be manifested in the strength of his power from heaven." -1 Enoch 1:5

Enoch was taken by God about 700 years before the flood. Did Mt. Sinai exist prior to the flood?

If so, show in scripture. The world as we know it now, rather, over the last 6 millennia, came about because of the flood.

"They see that every work of God is invariable in the period of its appearance. They behold summer and winter: perceiving that the whole earth is full of water; and that the cloud, the dew, and the rain refresh it." -1 Enoch 3:3

Two things:

1. Here Enoch mentions "summer and winter", seasons are not mentioned until after the flood. (cf. Gen. 8:22)
2. Rain, scripture also says there was no rain, get that "NO RAIN" until the flood. (cf. Gen. 2:6)

"They consider and behold every tree, how it appears to wither, and every leaf to fall off, except of fourteen trees, which are not deciduous; which wait from the old, to the appearance of the new leaf, for two or three winters." -1 Enoch 4:1

Again, mention of a season (2 or 3 to be exact) prior to the flood.

Can this be shown from scripture?

"That mountain therefore was called Armon, because they had sworn upon it, (5) and bound themselves by mutual execrations.

(5) Mt. Armon, or Mt. Hermon, derives its name from the Hebrew word herem, a curse (Charles, p. 63).

For the same reason as Mt. Sinai, did it exist in Enoch's time? If so, show me scripture.

"To Gabriel also the Lord said,...Purify the earth from all oppression, from all injustice, from all crime, from all impiety, and from all the pollution which is committed upon it. Exterminate them from the earth. Then shall all the children of men be righteous, and all nations shall pay me divine honours, and bless me; and all shall adore me. The earth shall be cleansed from all corruption, from every crime, from all punishment, and from all suffering; neither will I again send a deluge upon it from generation to generation for ever." -1 Enoch 10: 13, 25-27

Where to start on these verses. Where in scripture, are we told that Gabriel "purified the earth from all oppression and pollution? How can purification by Gabriel bring about righteousness? Are we not told that righteousness comes from God through faith? And if Gabriel did what God said, why did God need to send a flood?

"Proceeding on, I continued over the waters of Danbadan, (16) which is on the right to the west of Armon, reading the memorial of their prayer, until I fell asleep." -1 Enoch 13:8

(16) Danbadan. Dan in Dan (Knibb, p. 94).

In this passage, Enoch makes a reference to the land of Dan. (see footnote)

At the time of Enoch's "supposedly" writing this, the city of Dan, in the northernmost part of Israel, did not exist. Neither did Israel.

I can go on if you like.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

You are not going to like this.
19. The yom problem
— Yom; The Biggest Biblical Creation Theory Obstacle —
The word yom
The Hebrew word for day is yom and this word appears in Scriptures over 1400 times. And without exception this word, when written in the singular sense, means day. And that's it. Never anything else. Eons are indicated with the plural form: days, as in the days of such and such. The most popular counter argument is that the meaning of our word is fiercely restricted to 'day' for about a thousand times in the sequential Scriptures, but in the secluded chapter of Genesis 1 means something completely different! But honestly, if in Genesis 1 our word should have meant 'long time' it would have said 'long time'. There are words available in Hebrew that mean just that. None of which occur in Genesis 1.
The word as used in Genesis 1 means day and day alone. There's no way around it, and every serious theory to make (systematic, not theological) sense out of Genesis 1 should first and foremost address the yom-problem.
The solution lies in the rule we've established four chapters ago:
Hold that thought (11)
In Hebrew Scriptures, and all models derived thereof, entities are reckoned solely after their behavior and not after their appearance. An entity is a behavior, not that which executes the behavior.
To define something, the Hebrew language does not look at outer parameters but always at the action that needs to be named. The time-length of a yom is an outer parameter and not regarded in Hebrew. Since time and space are the four dimensions of space-time, and we measure sizes in the spatial dimensions with a ruler, a clock is a ruler for time. An hour is a 'distance' just like a mile.
A yom is not defined as something that is 24 hours long, but something that executes the action that defines a yom. Strictly spoken, a yom does not even have to have a length, as long as it executes the typical behavior that defines it. Forcing a static 24-hour mold upon the word yom may appear quite pious but flies flat in the face of the Second Commandment.
A yom therefore is a phase of a continuum (whether space-time, complexity or something else) that consists of two periods: a 'dark' part and a 'light' part. During the dark part of a regular day people sleep and are disconnected. During the light part they communicate and work together. Any other manifestation of yom should display the same kind of darkness (elements not connected) and lightness (elements connected).
The yom problem in addressing Genesis 1

I want to ask you a question.

While most Hebrew texts would indicate that "day" is to be interpreted as a 24 hour day, I do not disagree.

However, I ask: Is God omnipotent?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Now I want you to think on this.

People read the creation account and focus on the "day" part.

Hence the "literal" six day creation argument. (Young Earth)

Then there is the "a thousand years is as a day" argument. (Old Earth)

If we accept as a axiom, that God is indeed "omnipotent" (all powerful) is it beyond His capacity to literally speak the creation into being? Is it impossible for God to speak it, and in a nano-second, it come into being?

Don't get me wrong, if you believe a literal six 24 hour day creation, fine, God Bless you, I will not argue against it.

If you believe a six one thousand year day creation period, fine, God Bless you, I will not argue against that.

Who cares if it took 6 nano-seconds, or 6 seconds, or 6 minutes, or 6 hours, or 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months, or 6 one thousand year days.

When I read the creation account, I don't see it of such an importance as to how long it took, rather, I preach "who did it to begin with"!

And as to the "24" hour interpretation from "yom", as long as there is Ex. 17:22, that argument is moot too. On that "yom", the "yom" was indeed longer than 24 hours.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Radagast]

Here is another problem with Enoch.

There's also the problem that we have no idea what the original book of Enoch said. Apart from a few fragments, all we have is the Ethiopian translation.

With no Greek text for the book of Enoch, it's impossible to say whether even the famous passage from Jude 1:14-15 is a direct quote from the book of Enoch (as opposed to being parallel passages with a common source).

And there's no reason to believe that even the original book of Enoch was inspired.

 

[DeaconDean]

There's also the problem that we have no idea what the original book of Enoch said. Apart from a few fragments, all we have is the Ethiopian translation.

With no Greek text for the book of Enoch, it's impossible to say whether even the famous passage from Jude 1:14-15 is a direct quote from the book of Enoch (as opposed to being parallel passages with a common source).

And there's no reason to believe that even the original book of Enoch was inspired.

Exactly!

And it is also a fact that the Ethiopian church didn't canonize Enoch until 1300 AD. Which would be some 1600 years after it was written. (300-200 BCE)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mmksparbud]

True---to God one day is as a 1000 years--to God. But:
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
He gave us time--for our benefit--not His. He basis prophecies and such on our times, not His.
What Ex. 17:22? Ex. 17 only goes to verse 16.

 

[DeaconDean]

True---to God one day is as a 1000 years--to God. But:
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
He gave us time--for our benefit--not His. He basis prophecies and such on our times, not His.
What Ex. 17:22? Ex. 17 only goes to verse 16.

Excuse me, fingers move faster than the brain.

Ex. 17:12

"But Moses hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun."

Perhaps that not the best example. However, we do have scripture that tells us one day was about 30 hours long.

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." -Josh. 10:13 (KJV)

So here, in scripture, we a "day", a "yom" that could have been anywhere from 18 to possibly 24 hours longer than any other "day/yom".

So in a "strict" sense, you cannot say that every "day/yom" was a literal 24 hour day.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mmksparbud]

Excuse me, fingers move faster than the brain.

Ex. 17:12

"But Moses hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun."

Perhaps that not the best example. However, we do have scripture that tells us one day was about 30 hours long.

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." -Josh. 10:13 (KJV)

So here, in scripture, we a "day", a "yom" that could have been anywhere from 18 to possibly 24 hours longer than any other "day/yom".

So in a "strict" sense, you cannot say that every "day/yom" was a literal 24 hour day.

God Bless

Till all are one.

No--not a good example as this verse does not have the word yom in the original Hebrew.

and the hands of Mosheh were heavy, and they took a stone and they placed it underneath him, and he settled upon her, and Aharon and Hhur upheld his hands, from this one and from that one, and his hands were firm until the coming of the sun, "

MTT: Exodus 17
I can not access Joshua in the Hebrew so doo not know what word is used there.
It is a slightly different word in Gen.2:17

"but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,"

There it is : {בְּיוֹם / bê'yom

Which is different from the {יוֹם / yom} used in the Genesis 1 account.

MTT: Genesis 2

Gen 2 can be read season, or long time.

 

[DeaconDean]

No--not a good example as this verse does not have the word yom in the original Hebrew.

and the hands of Mosheh were heavy, and they took a stone and they placed it underneath him, and he settled upon her, and Aharon and Hhur upheld his hands, from this one and from that one, and his hands were firm until the coming of the sun, "

MTT: Exodus 17
I can not access Joshua in the Hebrew so doo not know what word is used there.
It is a slightly different word in Gen.2:17

"but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,"

There it is : {בְּיוֹם / bê'yom

Which is different from the {יוֹם / yom} used in the Genesis 1 account.

MTT: Genesis 2

Gen 2 can be read season, or long time.

Like I said, if you want to believe a day/yom is a 24 hour day, fine, God Bless you.

I can not access Joshua in the Hebrew so doo not know what word is used there.

Joshua 10:13 Interlinear: and the sun standeth still, and the moon hath stood -- till the nation taketh vengeance on its enemies; is it not written on the Book of the Upright, 'and the sun standeth in the midst of the heavens, and hath not hasted to go in -- as a perfect day?'

Strongs #3117

Strong's Concordance
yom: day
Original Word: יוֹם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: yom
Phonetic Spelling: (yome)
Short Definition: day

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JacksBratt]

Is it?

Yes...

Jude 14
"And about these also Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones" (Jude 14).

Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24) Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})

In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2) In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})


Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5) The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})

 

[JacksBratt]

Snopes provides evidence, you don't.

What is their "evidence"? They just deny it?

 

[JacksBratt]

Sons of God is taken to mean godly men, as it does every where else in Scriptures. Daughters of men is taken to mean daughters of ungodly men. Angels cannot reproduce. An easy similar story in scriptures is how Israel was warned against the taking of wives of other peoples that were not Israel. The angels continue to exist as this states in scriptures.

Angels that "lost their first estate" can reproduce with human women.

 

[Radagast]

What is their "evidence"?

Relevant links, quotes, and facts.

I'm still waiting for your evidence.

 

[Radagast]

Angels that "lost their first estate" can reproduce with human women.

No, they can't, because they're not human.