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Ghosts, spirits and the paranormal

SkyWriting

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The last time I was in the ER with my mother, I sensed a presence enter the room and stand behind me to my left. I turned to look, though I already knew I wouldn't see anything even though I knew it was there. I felt neither good nor evil coming from it and just continued my conversation with mom. By the time I finished, it had left. Was it a newly departed soul that had died there in the hospital? I may never know.
The human mind does that. It is always seeking. Typically in places where people die the mind imagines that spirits persist there. Old houses, graveyards, old buildings, anyplace with an imagined history about it.
 
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My question is inspired by the gospels of Matthew and Luke. Concretely, by Matthew 14:26-27 and Luke 24:36-39:

26 When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out in fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take courage, it is I; do not be afraid.”

[Matthew 14:26-27 NASB]​

36 Now while they were telling these things, Jesus Himself suddenly stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were startled and frightened, and thought that they were looking at a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you frightened, and why are doubts arising in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you plainly see that I have.”

[Luke 24:36-39 NASB]​

These passages tell us about the worldview of Jesus' disciples. They believed that apparitions of ghosts/spirits were a real phenomenon, to the point that in at least two instances they mistook their own Master for apparitions of this kind. This makes me wonder: why did the disciples have such a worldview in the first place? Was it rooted in actual experience?

Do ghosts exist?

Do disembodied spirits exist?

Are stories of paranormal activity real?

Those passages are probably the best shots but I don't find clear evidence for the existence of free-roaming human spirits AKA ghosts, in the Bible. Having said that I have seen pictures that fit the stereotypical ghost ideal. And I know for certain those photos weren't fakes. Very creepy, one looked like a dragon that with the tail would have been over 20 feet long.
 
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Rachel20

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The human mind does that. It is always seeking. Typically in places where people die the mind imagines that spirits persist there. Old houses, graveyards, old buildings, anyplace with an imagined history about it.

Probably so, but hospitals don't creep me out. I'm pretty clinical about things. Nevertheless, I really just don't know.
 
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SkyWriting

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Probably so, but hospitals don't creep me out. I'm pretty clinical about things. Nevertheless, I really just don't know.
They don't have to creep you out. It's a frame of mind.

Fact: When there is a school referendum it is highly supported if the polling place is inside a school. The votes are much lower for school support if the polling place is in some other building.

You can ask people if this influenced them and they say no, of course.
 
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DamianWarS

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My question is inspired by the gospels of Matthew and Luke. Concretely, by Matthew 14:26-27 and Luke 24:36-39:

26 When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out in fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take courage, it is I; do not be afraid.”

[Matthew 14:26-27 NASB]​

36 Now while they were telling these things, Jesus Himself suddenly stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were startled and frightened, and thought that they were looking at a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you frightened, and why are doubts arising in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you plainly see that I have.”

[Luke 24:36-39 NASB]​

These passages tell us about the worldview of Jesus' disciples. They believed that apparitions of ghosts/spirits were a real phenomenon, to the point that in at least two instances they mistook their own Master for apparitions of this kind. This makes me wonder: why did the disciples have such a worldview in the first place? Was it rooted in actual experience?

Do ghosts exist?

Do disembodied spirits exist?

Are stories of paranormal activity real?
to an extent yes but I think various sub-classification within the paranormal are the most tangential and may be widely inaccurate.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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The last time I was in the ER with my mother, I sensed a presence enter the room and stand behind me to my left. I turned to look, though I already knew I wouldn't see anything even though I knew it was there. I felt neither good nor evil coming from it and just continued my conversation with mom. By the time I finished, it had left. Was it a newly departed soul that had died there in the hospital? I may never know.

Some people in the Bible believed in ghosts, but the Bible doesn't teach their freedom to move around among the living. I believe that the presence you felt might have been either an angel or a demon.
 
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Rachel20

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Some people in the Bible believed in ghosts, but the Bible doesn't teach their freedom to move around among the living. I believe that the presence you felt might have been either an angel or a demon.

That may be. I tried to discern, but could not. My overall sense was to not react to it, but stand my ground, so to speak.
 
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Christopher0121

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Do ghosts exist?

Do disembodied spirits exist?

Are stories of paranormal activity real?

I found this topic fascinating. I'd like to share my understanding of the topic. Up front, I would like to disclose that I'm Catholic (I know, I know, nobody's perfect, right? lol).

These questions are fun questions to tickle the intellect and ponder theological possibilities. However, for some they are rather concerning, especially if one thinks they have encountered or are being harassed by some paranormal force. So, what I'm about to say isn't dogma, it's just one perspective. Even within the Catholic Church there are various interpretations of the matter.

I don't think any of us would question the existence of God, angels, and demons. So, I'll probably mention these only in passing if at all. I think the primary question is about what we call "ghosts" or the "disembodied spirits" of human beings. Up front, let's admit... demons can indeed appear as angels of light, loved one's, and even perhaps as a false Christ or God. But just because demons can do this it doesn't mean that ghosts cannot exist. After all, angels exist, and yet demons are said to be able to appear as angels of light.

But "ghosts"?

First, I think we should look to Sacred Scripture. Scripture does mention "ghosts" in my understanding:

- The Witch of Endor conjured the spirit of Samuel from the grave (1 Sam. 28:3–25).
- We are also told that Judas Maccabeus met the ghost of Onias the high priest in a vision (2 Macc. 15:11-17).
- The disciples thought Jesus himself was a ghost at one point (Matt. 14:26), indicating that they at least had an idea of ghosts and their possible existence.
- In the Gospel of Matthew, the disciples saw the spirits of Moses and Elijah with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1–9).
- Appearing after his resurrection, rather than correct the very idea of ghosts, Jesus simply says he isn’t one (Luke 24:37-39).​

Second, there is Sacred Tradition:

- The Church (I speak of the Catholic Church) has affirmed the numerous apparitions of deceased Saints as well as the messages they have brought to believers.
- Though theologians are divided on the issue, one of the greatest Doctors of the Church, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote about the belief in ghosts and apparently encountered a ghost on two separate occasions.
- The Church (the Catholic Church) affirms that a human soul who dies in "friendship with God", but has attachments to this life or the need of purification from venial sin, can experience a purgatorial state of existence as they work out letting go of these attachments or venial sins. These are considered to be "holy souls" who are ultimately destined for Heaven, only they are in need of some purification and help in letting go. The Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it like this:

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1030). . . . “purgatory … which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned”(Id., 1031).

- The Council of Trent (Fifth Session, 1563) made clear the Church’s doctrine on purgatory:

Therefore this holy Council commands the bishops to strive diligently that the sound doctrine of purgatory, handed down by the Holy Fathers and the sacred Councils, be believed by the faithful and that it be adhered to, taught and preached everywhere.

Personally, I believe that it is possible to encounter a "ghost". A genuine "ghost" would be a human soul that is caught in a purgatorial state of existence or a Saintly human soul appearing to bring a message or warning (but the latter are quite few and far between). God could also allow the soul of a loved one to appear to us in some form or fashion to reassure us of their salvation and bring us peace. Some "ghosts" might even appear to us in dreams.

A soul experiencing a purgatorial existence could be performing penance (this sort of "ghost" has been seen in some churches). Some "ghosts" could be emotionally attached to a place, action, person, or personal illusion in their own mind, and thereby find themselves unable to move on. Some might even be attached to this world through a sense of shock, denial, or need for justice.

Of course, only God is worthy of worship. However, if one encounters an angel one should certainly give reverence. Should one encounter a demonic spirit, I advise giving it wide berth and one should contact clergy to assist with the appropriate action. But if one is convinced they are dealing with a genuine "ghost" all one can do is pray for the soul.

It is a core teaching in the Church (the Catholic Church) that prayers be offered for souls experiencing what the Church has theologically termed "Purgatory". Remember, "Purgatory" isn't so much a place as it is a state of existence. Our prayers can lessen their suffering at the very least. However, the appropriate prayers and actions can even help these souls to let go of attachments to this world or the venial passions they are clinging to, thereby allowing them to become unshackled from their purgatorial suffering and move on into the beauty of Heaven and the very presence of God. Such prayers are found among various devotional practices and is even included in the Mass. I propose praying the Rosary with the stated intention of relieving the suffering of, and the setting at liberty, any disembodied human spirit in a state of Purgatory. If one isn't of the Catholic tradition one can certainly pray said intentions in their own words and perhaps even openly preach the gospel to them and encourage them to trust in God's grace and let go. Under no circumstances should communication be engaged in. This should be a form of prayer "ministry" for the deceased who are struggling.

:liturgy:

Just offering an additional perspective to the conversation.

God bless.
 
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Christopher0121

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There are no actual ghosts. The human mind has a very strong desire to see other humans and spot them in "in the wild". When hunters are out for days seeking food they need to be able to see animals that are naturally camouflaged and to spot other family members to keep them safe. So the mind works very hard to "bring to life" friends and relatives. It helps keep people company when alone if they can recreate relatives that have given them hunting advice for example. This is why ghosts are never seen by two people. It's always one person alone, usually in the dark who is already longing for company. We can also find faces and animals in the wild. These are all manifestations of our imagination are are perfectly natural. Not only are they natural but they are healthy.

83e4b272f30e02edd87dd557821cdc0f.jpg
305190a7822de5a8fd8523c56375aca7.jpg

dancin-tree.jpg
tree16.jpg

Is it possible that some natural phenomena are God's artwork???
 
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SkyWriting

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The Liturgist

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I found this topic fascinating. I'd like to share my understanding of the topic. Up front, I would like to disclose that I'm Catholic (I know, I know, nobody's perfect, right? lol).

These questions are fun questions to tickle the intellect and ponder theological possibilities. However, for some they are rather concerning, especially if one thinks they have encountered or are being harassed by some paranormal force. So, what I'm about to say isn't dogma, it's just one perspective. Even within the Catholic Church there are various interpretations of the matter.

I don't think any of us would question the existence of God, angels, and demons. So, I'll probably mention these only in passing if at all. I think the primary question is about what we call "ghosts" or the "disembodied spirits" of human beings. Up front, let's admit... demons can indeed appear as angels of light, loved one's, and even perhaps as a false Christ or God. But just because demons can do this it doesn't mean that ghosts cannot exist. After all, angels exist, and yet demons are said to be able to appear as angels of light.

But "ghosts"?

First, I think we should look to Sacred Scripture. Scripture does mention "ghosts" in my understanding:

- The Witch of Endor conjured the spirit of Samuel from the grave (1 Sam. 28:3–25).
- We are also told that Judas Maccabeus met the ghost of Onias the high priest in a vision (2 Macc. 15:11-17).
- The disciples thought Jesus himself was a ghost at one point (Matt. 14:26), indicating that they at least had an idea of ghosts and their possible existence.
- In the Gospel of Matthew, the disciples saw the spirits of Moses and Elijah with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1–9).
- Appearing after his resurrection, rather than correct the very idea of ghosts, Jesus simply says he isn’t one (Luke 24:37-39).​

Second, there is Sacred Tradition:

- The Church (I speak of the Catholic Church) has affirmed the numerous apparitions of deceased Saints as well as the messages they have brought to believers.
- Though theologians are divided on the issue, one of the greatest Doctors of the Church, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote about the belief in ghosts and apparently encountered a ghost on two separate occasions.
- The Church (the Catholic Church) affirms that a human soul who dies in "friendship with God", but has attachments to this life or the need of purification from venial sin, can experience a purgatorial state of existence as they work out letting go of these attachments or venial sins. These are considered to be "holy souls" who are ultimately destined for Heaven, only they are in need of some purification and help in letting go. The Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it like this:

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1030). . . . “purgatory … which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned”(Id., 1031).

- The Council of Trent (Fifth Session, 1563) made clear the Church’s doctrine on purgatory:

Therefore this holy Council commands the bishops to strive diligently that the sound doctrine of purgatory, handed down by the Holy Fathers and the sacred Councils, be believed by the faithful and that it be adhered to, taught and preached everywhere.

Personally, I believe that it is possible to encounter a "ghost". A genuine "ghost" would be a human soul that is caught in a purgatorial state of existence or a Saintly human soul appearing to bring a message or warning (but the latter are quite few and far between). God could also allow the soul of a loved one to appear to us in some form or fashion to reassure us of their salvation and bring us peace. Some "ghosts" might even appear to us in dreams.

A soul experiencing a purgatorial existence could be performing penance (this sort of "ghost" has been seen in some churches). Some "ghosts" could be emotionally attached to a place, action, person, or personal illusion in their own mind, and thereby find themselves unable to move on. Some might even be attached to this world through a sense of shock, denial, or need for justice.

Of course, only God is worthy of worship. However, if one encounters an angel one should certainly give reverence. Should one encounter a demonic spirit, I advise giving it wide berth and one should contact clergy to assist with the appropriate action. But if one is convinced they are dealing with a genuine "ghost" all one can do is pray for the soul.

It is a core teaching in the Church (the Catholic Church) that prayers be offered for souls experiencing what the Church has theologically termed "Purgatory". Remember, "Purgatory" isn't so much a place as it is a state of existence. Our prayers can lessen their suffering at the very least. However, the appropriate prayers and actions can even help these souls to let go of attachments to this world or the venial passions they are clinging to, thereby allowing them to become unshackled from their purgatorial suffering and move on into the beauty of Heaven and the very presence of God. Such prayers are found among various devotional practices and is even included in the Mass. I propose praying the Rosary with the stated intention of relieving the suffering of, and the setting at liberty, any disembodied human spirit in a state of Purgatory. If one isn't of the Catholic tradition one can certainly pray said intentions in their own words and perhaps even openly preach the gospel to them and encourage them to trust in God's grace and let go. Under no circumstances should communication be engaged in. This should be a form of prayer "ministry" for the deceased who are struggling.

:liturgy:

Just offering an additional perspective to the conversation.

God bless.


Regarding the Witch of Endor, the Holy Fathers of the early Church from whence Catholic magisterium and Orthodox tradition were divided. I made a post on this before, but basically the three contending views are that the Witch of Endor actually did conjure up St. Samuel, which I personally disagree with, but many Fathers more educated than me held that view; others regarded her as a charlatan, and still others say a demon impersonated St. Samuel. This is my personal view.

In jest, I would suggest she conjured up Emperor Palpatine who impersonated Samuel and then gave us three lousy Star Wars films in the past decade. But there was actually a George Lucas produced Ewoks film which did at least in concept art feature a Witch of Endor. I wish I was kidding, but I have vague recollections of seeing this film in my youth and I believe I speak for most in saying it was decidedly subpar.
 
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SkyWriting

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Regarding the Witch of Endor, the Holy Fathers of the early Church from whence Catholic magisterium and Orthodox tradition were divided. I made a post on this before, but basically the three contending views are that the Witch of Endor actually did conjure up St. Samuel, which I personally disagree with, but many Fathers more educated than me held that view; others regarded her as a charlatan, and still others say a demon impersonated St. Samuel. This is my personal view.In jest, I would suggest she conjured up Emperor Palpatine who impersonated Samuel and then gave us three lousy Star Wars films in the past decade. But there was actually a George Lucas produced Ewoks film which did at least in concept art feature a Witch of Endor. I wish I was kidding, but I have vague recollections of seeing this film in my youth and I believe I speak for most in saying it was decidedly subpar.

In the TV show, Endora was scary.
x1080
 
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The Liturgist

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In the TV show, Endora was scary.
x1080

That face reminds me of Madame Leota from the Haunted Mansion at Disneyland. She has a remarkable head for materializing the disembodied.
 
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Christopher0121

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Regarding the Witch of Endor, the Holy Fathers of the early Church from whence Catholic magisterium and Orthodox tradition were divided. I made a post on this before, but basically the three contending views are that the Witch of Endor actually did conjure up St. Samuel, which I personally disagree with, but many Fathers more educated than me held that view; others regarded her as a charlatan, and still others say a demon impersonated St. Samuel. This is my personal view.

In jest, I would suggest she conjured up Emperor Palpatine who impersonated Samuel and then gave us three lousy Star Wars films in the past decade. But there was actually a George Lucas produced Ewoks film which did at least in concept art feature a Witch of Endor. I wish I was kidding, but I have vague recollections of seeing this film in my youth and I believe I speak for most in saying it was decidedly subpar.

Amen! There is no dogma on this and many theologians are divided.

When I was Pentecostal I believed the Witch of Endor conjured up a demon who was impersonating Samuel.

However, my take on it has changed. Why? Well, let's look at the text closely...

I Samuel 28:3-25
New Catholic Bible
3 Samuel was dead, and all of Israel had mourned for him and had buried him in Ramah, his own city. Saul had expelled mediums and wizards from out of the land. 4 The Philistines assembled together and went and camped at Shunem. Saul gathered together all of Israel and they camped at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid, and his heart trembled. 6 Saul inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him in dreams, or by the Urim, or through the prophets.
Saul and the Medium. 7 Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium so that I can go to her and inquire of her.” His servants answered, “There is a woman who is a medium in Endor.” 8 Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes. He went with two men, and they came to the woman by night. He said, “Please consult a spirit for me, bring up the one whose name I give you.” 9 But the woman said to him, “You surely know what Saul has done, how he has expelled mediums and wizards out of the land. Why would you set a trap for my life, bringing on my death?” 10 Saul swore an oath to her by the Lord saying, “As the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.” 11 The woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you,” and he answered, “Bring up Samuel for me.”
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out in a loud voice, and the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me, Saul?” 13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid! What did you see?” She said to Saul, “I saw a spirit coming up from the earth.” 14 He said to her, “What does he look like?” She said, “An old man wearing a robe came up.” Saul realized that it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you bothered me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress. The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned against me. He does not answer me anymore, either by prophets or by dreams. I have called upon you so that you can make known to me what I should do.” 16 Samuel said, “Why do you question me now that the Lord has turned against you and has become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done for himself exactly what he predicted through me. The Lord has ripped the kingdom out of your hand, and he has given it to your neighbor, to David. 18 You did not heed the voice of the Lord nor enact his fierce rage against Amalek. Therefore, the Lord has done this thing to you today. 19 The Lord will hand over both you and Israel into the hands of the Philistines. Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”
20 Saul fell full length upon the ground for he was terrified because of what Samuel had said. His strength was gone, for he had not eaten anything all day and night. 21 When the woman came up to Saul and saw that he was greatly troubled, she said to him, “Look, your handmaid has obeyed your command. I have taken my life in my hands when I did what you had ordered me to do. 22 Therefore, please heed the voice of your handmaid. Let me give you something to eat, and then you will have the strength to go on your way.” 23 He refused and said, “I will not eat!”
But both his servants and the woman kept urging him, and he finally listened to them. He got up off the ground and sat on the couch. 24 The woman had a fatted calf in the house, and she quickly killed it. She took some flour, kneaded it, and baked it into loaves of unleavened bread. 25 She set it before Saul and his servants. They ate, and then they got up and went on their way that night.​

The bolded portions above is where the Bible itself identifies this spirit as none other than Samuel. Had it been an evil spirit... why does the Bible imply it was Samuel? Elsewhere we read when evil spirits are influencing, such as when Satan entered Judas. If we are to trust the text, the Bible is identifying the spirit as Samuel himself.

Also, there's this... a prophecy of the LORD as spoken by Samuel's spirit...

“Why do you question me now that the Lord has turned against you and has become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done for himself exactly what he predicted through me. The Lord has ripped the kingdom out of your hand, and he has given it to your neighbor, to David. 18 You did not heed the voice of the Lord nor enact his fierce rage against Amalek. Therefore, the Lord has done this thing to you today. 19 The Lord will hand over both you and Israel into the hands of the Philistines. Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.” (I Samuel 28:16-19)

Now, not only is this a prophetic Word of the LORD against Saul... but it literally came true. No demon has this kind of power.

So we have the Bible calling the spirit "Samuel" and the spirit issuing a true prophecy against Saul. I think those two details solidly point to the spirit actually being Samuel.

I often step back from a text and ask myself... If text doesn't mean what it appears to say... how else could this be worded? If it isn't Samuel, why does the text address the spirit as Samuel? If it were indeed Samuel, would it be worded any differently? To me... the text appears to solidly affirm that for whatever reason this was indeed Samuel the prophet.

But like I said, this is just my take on it. lol

God bless.
 
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The Liturgist

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I can’t dispute with you when approximately a third of the early Church fathers agreed with you, and no council has ruled on this; it is a realm of theologoumemnon, but I would note that demons are known to be able to make apparently accurate prophecies by virtue of their availability to move extremely rapidly, so a demon would have known, and likewise a witch who was fraudulently could guess from the nature of what King Saul asked and external events the likely reality and to bolster her own reputation as a necromancer might have sought to make the most accurate prediction if it was evident this is what was to occur. And Judas did collaborate with the devil; insofar as he became possessed it was not the result of accidental dabbling in the occult but rather an alignment of purpose.

But this is an area of theologoumemnon (theological opinion).

Now, I do believe that the saints, since they are alive, can appear, and indeed in Eastern Orthodoxy St. Nectarios of Pentapolis appeared in a small village whose church was unserved to administer the sacraments in 2009: Full of Grace and Truth: A Great Miracle of St. Nektarios in Romania And the Coptic Orthodox report appearances of the child martyr St. Abanoub, and these I believe in. And obviously I believe the Our Blessed Lady the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary intercedes for us and is worthy of the highest veneration among the saints and has doubtless appeared. I commend the use of the prayer Hail Mary according to the Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov along with the Jesus Prayer and Our Father.

I do not believe however that any ghostly, frightening or troubling apparition of a deceased person or even a saint or God, in dreams or while awake, or one whose presence has no spiritual benefit for those who witness it, is likely to be authentic. For this reason I have grave doubts about two Marian apparitions the CDF has not deemed worthy of belief, those being “The Lady formerly known as Mary” to Ida Peerdeman in Amsterdam, and those in Medjugorje, the former because of the curious demands and threatening remarks made by the apparition, and the latter because of the lack of vocations, the admitted use of marijuana, the financial benefit of one of the “seers”, the regularity of the apparitions, and the contentious ecclesiastical situation wherein the Franciscans in that province have since 1875 failed to turn over the operation of all of the parishes in that Province to the new Diocesan hierarchy, which seems contrary to the early Franciscan principle of not operating contrary to the wishes of the local bishop, when Herzegovina was recaptured from the Ottomans by the Kingdom of Hungary and thus ceased to be a missionary province under Propaganda Fide and instead was reorganized back to a usual diocesan structure. And neither of these apparitions has been declared worthy of belief by the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith.
 
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