Getting Water Baptized Twice?

[Crandaddy]

God can convey his grace in other ways to us every day... in various ways he works in our lives...not just sacraments.

When you use that term Sacraments it's limited to seven . If you use the term Mysteries, it's not limited to those seven. So as you wrote sacraments, I agree with your comment completely. Those are not the only means of grace. We even have a witness in the thief on a cross.

I'm in substantial agreement with this.

 

[Colleen1]

Nothing terribly specific, as I recall. It was on the order of you ought to be baptized because in case you haven't been you may (or will) end up in hell. Mind you, he did not tell them that they would assuredly end up in heaven if they were baptized.

I'd have to disagree with this manner of doing things.

I'd need to hear more about it before agreeing or disagreeing.

My first thought was:

5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.
Colossians 4:5-6

...and then....us as Christians being rooted in the following type of relationship with God and not simply out of fear etc.

16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 3:16-19

 

[Rev Randy]

My first thought was:

5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.
Colossians 4:5-6

...and then....us as Christians being rooted in the following type of relationship with God and not simply out of fear etc.

16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 3:16-19

Belief often begins from a healthy fear. But it should not end there. I'm for death/sick bed conversions 100%. As long as there is breath there is still hope.
Luke 14
23" And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.'
That word compel (αναγκάζ&#969 means:compel, bludgeon, coerce, constrain, and necessitate. It does not mean trick or denote anything untruthful.
Kinda makes me think a bit. Can't say I've ever bludgeoned anyone into coming to Christ. But I have purposely hurt someone's feelings who was on the wrong path. Even used how it must be hurting their dear mother.

 

[Colleen1]

Belief often begins from a healthy fear. But it should not end there. I'm for death/sick bed conversions 100%. As long as there is breath there is still hope.
Luke 14
23" And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.'
That word compel (αναγκάζ&#969 means:compel, bludgeon, coerce, constrain, and necessitate. It does not mean trick or denote anything untruthful.
Kinda makes me think a bit. Can't say I've ever bludgeoned anyone into coming to Christ. But I have purposely hurt someone's feelings who was on the wrong path. Even used how it must be hurting their dear mother.

My point is ...well let me use an extreme example. For example if one confesses to a crime out of fear and not really seeing their wrong or understanding / if there is torture or immanent danger then people agree to things they don't always really believe in doing etc. Again these are extreme examples...but my point being that fear doesn't always produce sincerity and part of salvation is belief...true repentance. For true repentance etc. there needs to be sincerity.

 

[Rev Randy]

My point is ...well let me use an extreme example. For example if one confesses to a crime out of fear and not really seeing their wrong or understanding / if there is torture or immanent danger then people agree to things they don't always really believe in doing etc. Again these are extreme examples...but my point being that fear doesn't always produce sincerity and part of salvation is belief...true repentance. For true repentance etc. there needs to be sincerity.

I agree with the extreme aspect. But how would we know? We just plant and tend. God make any increase if there is any.
The amount of caring I see in your concerns is godly.

 

[Colleen1]

I agree with the extreme aspect. But how would we know? We just plant and tend. God make any increase if there is any.
The amount of caring I see in your concerns is godly.

Well, when one has heard 'hell & brimstone' ....they know how different it is to get to know God on the basis of love and respect rather than fear. Thanks.

 

[shturt678]

After 1929, or so, the Church = / = Kingdom of God hence all those baptisms, rites, confirmations and all the other religiosities are null and void. Once one can get back to just the basics, ie, at one's instant of faith (vivified), in the Kingdom of God (in the Church "outwardly" and a Christian and, providing one lives long enough, understands to their accountability the Name one is being baptized in (the revelation the Triune's God's name is based upon), then water baptized (regenerated) receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit and remission of sins. Then one goes to the physical Churches (after 1930 for sure) being "in there," but not "of them." Now you can see why modern Lutherans pretty much issue 'no trespass warnings' on me when I show up to various Lutheran Churches where the other Churches just tolerate me. btw doing you a favor not running through the basics of the other Sacrament of pre-1929 Lord's Supper - let alone the other basics of God's means of grace producing 'faith' effected through repentance, ie, the inspired Word of God (not non-inspired Bible translations that are viewed as inspired). Just ol' old loquacious non-modern Chemnitz type Lutheran Jack. Don't give the former too much thought as, although other Church settings allow me in, they view as insane to fallacious whereas the modern Lutherans view as fallacious to just twisting God's Word. Note that if I didn't have a Rom.3:18 of God (the antithesis of security that one sees around them today), not wanting to offend nor provoke him, there is no way I would post this provocative and inconvenient Truthful direction inference (no need to get too upset as just another opinion) as just winging it with no Bible or notes before me ergo may have errors in the minors.

 

[Rev Randy]

My point is ...well let me use an extreme example. For example if one confesses to a crime out of fear and not really seeing their wrong or understanding / if there is torture or immanent danger then people agree to things they don't always really believe in doing etc. Again these are extreme examples...but my point being that fear doesn't always produce sincerity and part of salvation is belief...true repentance. For true repentance etc. there needs to be sincerity.

Yes, it should be presented in love even when harsh. I get your point.

 

[shturt678]

Once we figure out "love" (agape) then we can figure out a renewal of faith, ie, or is it the others way around? Then see if a 2nd baptism is valid? Hey, not pointedly picking. Just ol' old toothless Jack baptizing these little guilty bald headed infants more than once due to the look they give me when that ice water hits and really gets them intoooo the Kingdom for surreee.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I would certainly hope Baptism is never taught as a guaranteed ticket to heaven. I can't think of a place in scripture where Baptism stands alone.

I agree completely! I am perplexed when I encounter individuals who have a complete assurance of their salvation based upon the fact that they have been baptized.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'd have to disagree with this manner of doing things.

I also disagree with it. Not only is it bizarre, but it is fraught with theological errors.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't know of any significant difference between the Catholic understanding of Baptism and the Anglican understanding. Anglicans also believe that Baptism washes away the stain of Original Sin, renews and regenerates the fallen man, and grafts one into the Church.

I believe that Anglicans used to have First Communion following Confirmation (which we take to be a true sacrament, apart from Baptism) after a period of catechesis, but I'm not sure how widely this is practiced anymore.

In my parish, you must be validly baptized in order to be communed, but you needn't necessarily be confirmed. My parish is small, and we don't have any young children; so I confess to being ignorant of our custom with them. I'll need to talk to my priest about this and find out what we do...

Yes, it is customary for candidates for Anglican Confirmation to renew their baptismal vows during the rite and before the Bishop lays his hands on them for them to receive the Holy Ghost.

Thank you for the excellent clarification. My experience in Anglican churches has been extremely limited. I visited a very large Episcopal church in Texas one Sunday with a classmate and his family. I was rather surprised to see very young children partaking of communion.

 

[Albion]

In my limited understanding of Catholicism (I am open to correction here) baptism washes away the stain of Original Sin, first and foremost. Secondarily, in doing so it places the individual in the Church.

That's correct--and well stated.

What is the Anglican understanding? It has struck me that in many Anglican circles baptism is called christening and is the rite in which a child's name is officially conferred, first and foremost, and by that name he/she is known as a member of the church.

It's about the same as with Catholics although there are Anglicans who reject the idea that Baptism is regenerative. "Christening" is just slang and seldom heard anymore.

First Communion in the Catholic Church is the first public participation in the mass by an individual and, as such, signifies that the individual is now an active participant in this aspect of the Church.

I'd just say that these children have now been admitted to the ranks of communicants.

I know that there is no such thing in Orthodox, Anglican or other Protestant denominations.

That's essentially true because those churches go all sorts of different ways on this issue.

Confirmation in many denominations is the point where the individual formally becomes a member of that denomination of their own volition and understanding.

Yes, that is the usual mainline Protestant POV.

It is at that point that a public profession of faith is made.

Yes--in those churches where there is infant baptism but no "first communion" Catholic-style. Confirmation does that, usually in one's teens. But in churches that don't practice infant baptism, this is where the baptism comes in and there is no need for any Confirmation.

 

[Colleen1]

I agree completely! I am perplexed when I encounter individuals who have a complete assurance of their salvation based upon the fact that they have been baptized.

Yeah, it is interesting....

 

[shturt678]

I agree completely! I am perplexed when I encounter individuals who have a complete assurance of their salvation based upon the fact that they have been baptized.

Saved, being saved, then shall be saved kind of non-modern Lutheran kind of thing. That tiny bald headed guilty baby that I baptize is assured salvation for a little time anyway, ie, seconds to hours? Acts2:39 for a 110 v. d.c. kick-start.

 

[Crypto]

Saved, being saved, then shall be saved kind of non-modern Lutheran kind of thing. That tiny bald headed guilty baby that I baptize is assured salvation for a little time anyway, ie, seconds to hours? Acts2:39 for a 110 v. d.c. kick-start.

That Bible says: "Once saved, always saved".

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

 

[Crandaddy]

That Bible says: "Once saved, always saved".

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

Very true. Once our salvation is completed, it is permanent. And of course, God, being omniscient, has perfect knowledge of who will be saved and who won't. But right now, in this life, we're still running the race; we're still being saved. If we choose to reject God before the race is finished, He won't force us to go to Heaven. He will honor our wishes. We always get precisely what we seek in the end, which is why whatever we get in the afterlife is perfectly just.

 

[shturt678]

That Bible says: "Once saved, always saved".

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

The Bible Text do say OSAS, however the Bible Context + IIPet.1:20, 21 say that even Judas was saved.

Jn.10:27-29 must be viewed in the light of Jn.15:6, ie, gong!

 

[Colleen1]

I don't believe a baby / young child will go to hell if they are not baptized. I believe in the age of accountability.

 

[Crypto]

Very true. Once our salvation is completed, it is permanent. And of course, God, being omniscient, has perfect knowledge of who will be saved and who won't. But right now, in this life, we're still running the race; we're still being saved. If we choose to reject God before the race is finished, He won't force us to go to Heaven. He will honor our wishes. We always get precisely what we seek in the end, which is why whatever we get in the afterlife is perfectly just.

Once I was very worried about that, since I am not exactly a constant person. So, I said to God "How will I manage to be faithful to you my whole life, if I even let myself down all the time". He made me understood that he will take care of my. It is not my strength (thanks God), it's his.

"even to your old age I am he,
and to gray hairs I will carry you.
I have made, and I will bear;
I will carry and will save." (Isaiah 46:4)