Getting Water Baptized Twice?

[Albion]

I am talking about experiencing a Christian rite while purposely being deceptive about what one really believes.... what I have been talking about all along.

I'm sorry, but that's hardly what you've been "'talking about all along."

Even now, your argument is shifting. We were discussing being baptized without full knowledge of the workings of the sacrament or of God's purposes in instituting Baptism. Now you've refined that into talk of purposeful deceptiveness.

So, is that what we are to think of people who are baptized without completely understanding the idea of substitutionary atonement or who are young children--they're all engaged in

CONSCIOUS DECEPTION

 

[Albion]

It didn't fail, but success was never determined by my perception one way or the other.

Bingo!

Is there some way we could be sure that Colleen reads that, since she won't take it when I'm the one saying just what you did here?

 

[x141]

I agree with part your first paragraph apart form our thoughts being 'above' God's. ...just not possible. Then again maybe you have a differing meaning in mind. Also, we are not infallible. We err even after we become Christians and get baptized. We need God's constant grace and forgiveness.

When I got baptized the second time, I knew it was God's will and the right thing for me to do. That was God working in my life and it was completely different than the first time. I'm not proud that I got baptized the first time for the wrong reason but I'm not also going to say that it was okay for me to do this.. it wasn't. Neither did it mean I was a lost cause but how could it be meaningful to me and honest when I wasn't ... well wasn't doing it for the right reasons.... What I did was wrong.

I have also gone to church as a teen and not taken communion. Believing in God but confused about salvation.... not sure what to believe... what I did / should believe. It was the honorable thing for me to do... between me and God. And boy oh boy, did I ever get pressured but I'm glad I did right by God. Now, communion is one of my favourite services. It's awe inspiring, illuminating and stretches me to grow... human words can't possibly express some of the ways God has worked in my heart and life.

I did not say I was, my husband is my identity, and we live by every word that proceeds out of His mouth., just as we can not walk with God unless we first come into agreement with Him.

Your footsteps that are ordered now, are the same footsteps that were ordered to bring you to this. Even Paul believed he was called from his mothers womb. In an earthly sense, he was brought through to find the true mother he was born of.

 

[x141]

Bingo!

Is there some way we could be sure that Colleen reads that, since she won't take it when I'm the one saying just what you did here?

It's not your words, it's the image your words became to her. This is the common sin of all humanity, and why Jesus was not accepted in his home town. I believe Paul called it familiar spirits. Perception is everything.

 

[Colleen1]

Few people do. I don't and Via Crucis doesn't, so let's drop that from the conversation.


Why are you talking about salvation without Baptism when that is not the subject?

I was answering your following question in that there is more to baptism but baptism is not responsible for our salvation.... defining what I believe. It was in answer to your following question...some people do believe that salvation is contingent on baptism. I was clarifying my beliefs.

btw, we are here to discuss...

If you think that this is all there is to Baptism--a public declaration of your belief--then I can well appreciate why you'd say this.

However, it's obviously NOT the only quality there is to Baptism, as the verses you approved with the comment, "Exactly my point" demonstrate. For example,

 

[Albion]

I was answering your following question in that there is more to baptism but baptism is not responsible for our salvation.... defining what I believe. It was in answer to your following question...some people do believe that salvation is contingent on baptism. I was clarifying my beliefs.

I never said 'word one' about Baptism guaranteeing salvation, so I don't know why anyone would assume that the "more to Baptism" point would be interpreted to mean that. In any case, how about dealing with the fact that Baptism does accomplish more than a public declaration of one's belief system now that we know that "Baptism saves you" isn't part of it?

 

[Colleen1]

I'm sorry, but that's hardly what you've been "'talking about all along."

Even now, your argument is shifting. We were discussing being baptized without full knowledge of the workings of the sacrament or of God's purposes in instituting Baptism. Now you've refined that into talk of purposeful deceptiveness.

So, is that what we are to think of people who are baptized without completely understanding the idea of substitutionary atonement or who are young children--they're all engaged in

If you were uncertain of what 'I' was referring to at any time you could have asked...

 

[Colleen1]

It didn't fail, but success was never determined by my perception one way or the other.

Bingo!

Is there some way we could be sure that Colleen reads that, since she won't take it when I'm the one saying just what you did here?

Again..different circumstances it seems than what I'm referring to.

However, considering your comment, what do you believe would be achieved if one experiences a rite under false pretenses???

 

[Colleen1]

I never said 'word one' about Baptism guaranteeing salvation, so I don't know why anyone would assume that the "more to Baptism" point would be interpreted to mean that. In any case, how about dealing with the fact that Baptism does accomplish more than a public declaration of one's belief system now that we know that "Baptism saves you" isn't part of it?

I've already answered that. Did you miss it?

 

[Albion]

If you were uncertain of what 'I' was referring to at any time you could have asked...

Have you forgotten post 157 so soon?

Anyway, I just did ask you a question and I'm hoping you answer it before it gets buried under a lot of subsequent posts:

In any case, how about dealing with the fact that Baptism does accomplish more than a public declaration of one's belief system now that we know that "Baptism saves you" isn't part of it?

What other benefits of Baptism do you see (hint: we've already agreed on this information):

38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

 

[Colleen1]

I did not say I was, my husband is my identity, and we live by every word that proceeds out of His mouth., just as we can not walk with God unless we first come into agreement with Him.

Your footsteps that are ordered now, are the same footsteps that were ordered to bring you to this. Even Paul believed he was called from his mothers womb. In an earthly sense, he was brought through to find the true mother he was born of.

Is not living for God's glory your identity? It is part of what baptism is about after all.

 

[Colleen1]

Have you forgotten post 157 so soon?

Anyway, I just did ask you a question and I'm hoping you answer it before it gets buried under a lot of subsequent posts:



What other benefits of Baptism do you see (hint: we've already agreed on this information):

Throughout this thread I have expressed what baptism has meant to me personally etc. ...

 

[x141]

Again..different circumstances it seems than what I'm referring to.

However, considering your comment, what do you believe would be achieved if one experiences a rite under false pretenses???

Confusion.

 

[x141]

Is not living for God's glory your identity? It is part of what baptism is about after all.

Yep ... that would be the me that never made it out of the water ...

It's not so much about the image we become to each other, it is about the image God becomes to us. This is what is laid down, he is the one that is picked up by us, or our soul. If we mix the two together it becomes a wandering around to us until all thoughts that are contrary to this one Truth, or the Truth of one, are extinguished, which is part of the process, in this life.

Peter measured the All Flesh of Pentecost not ever knowing he had, until God brought it to his attention that day on the roof, no different than when Paul measured Mark, or Adam measured the handy work of God.

 

[Kristen.NewCreation]

Watch the goading and baiting... address the post content and the OP, not the poster.

MOD HAT OFF
​

 

[bbbbbbb]

How would you define 'baptism in a church'?

My definition is fairly broad on that matter. It would include the use of water, of course, in some form of washing ceremony (immersion, sprinkling, pouring, etc.) with church members present to one degree or another and an officiant. And, most important, the use of the name of the Triune God - the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit.

Please note that I do not necessarily equate this with what I see in scripture. For example, we have Philip and the Ethiopian treasurer in the wilderness.

 

[bbbbbbb]

One baptism is the coming out of something, the other is the coming into something, or one a death, the other a life.

Nicely put. Thank you.

 

[Colleen1]

My definition is fairly broad on that matter. It would include the use of water, of course, in some form of washing ceremony (immersion, sprinkling, pouring, etc.) with church members present to one degree or another and an officiant. And, most important, the use of the name of the Triune God - the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit.

Please note that I do not necessarily equate this with what I see in scripture. For example, we have Philip and the Ethiopian treasurer in the wilderness.

I guess I should be more clear regarding my query. I'll try to rephrase by requoting your other post.

The fact is that these twelve had been previously baptized, according to the baptism of John the Baptist. There is no question about whether or not they had been baptized. Paul determined that they needed to be baptized again (not the first time for them) with Christian baptism. IOW, he determined that the baptism of John was insufficient.

Now we know that John's baptism was one of repentance, which is in marked contrast to Christian baptism. There were, and are, various baptisms in Judaism today. If a Jew becomes a Christian he is baptized again, even though he underwent baptism previously in his former faith.

I agree.

In the same way, it is quite possible for a non-Christian to undergo something called baptism in a church. I fail to see any reason that that individual should not be baptized after he becomes a believe in Jesus Christ.

I was hoping you would clarify your view regarding this statement:

In the same way, it is quite possible for a non-Christian to undergo something called baptism in a church.

So are you referring to someone who really doesn't believe in the salvation plan and Jesus as Lord and Savior and has gone through baptism?

 

[abysmul]

Again..different circumstances it seems than what I'm referring to.

However, considering your comment, what do you believe would be achieved if one experiences a rite under false pretenses???

I'd like to hear Albion's answer to this. This is a truly fascinating thread.

 

[Albion]

I'd like to hear Albion's answer to this. This is a truly fascinating thread.

Hi. As it happens, I was just thinking about this thread before I checked into it. In answer to what seems the question of the moment, I think we have to get away from thinking of Baptism as something that is the beginning and the end of our spiritual journey. It's a part of it and we all know (or should) that it doesn't save anyone by itself.

You can very easily be baptized as a child and never give a thought to religion for the rest of your life. You can be baptized in later life after thinking you've made a commitment to Christ and then walk away from it. It is divine medicine, a help to the recipient, a visual admission into the church, and--in the case of infants--a promise to the community and to God to raise the child in the faith. But it doesn't zap anyone into anything by itself.

But all of that supposes at least a half-hearted and somewhat intelligent approach to the reception of Baptism on the part of the candidate or the sponsors. What if it's done by someone with the wrong intention? I can't imagine that this happens very often, but the question is asked.

For one thing, it would be IMO like receiving the Lord's Supper without the proper intention. It would be wrong in God's eyes and presumably would be done to the spiritual disadvantage of the recipient. Anyway, that's whatever God make out of it himself. The sacrament itself isn't diminished or invalidated. Mainly, it's just wasted on that person.