Getting Water Baptized Twice?

[Colleen1]

Then how can baptism regenerate?

Regeneration and salvation are two differing things imo.

 

[Hentenza]

Regeneration and salvation are two differing things imo.

One cannot be saved without regeneration since regeneration is what makes a person a new creation.

 

[Colleen1]

One cannot be saved without regeneration since regeneration is what makes a person a new creation.

lol I knew you'd say that. lol

I believe regeneration is part of salvation...yes. However, I see regeneration in bigger terms than simply being baptized.

We can take the thief on the cross next to Jesus etc, etc.... For instance, truly being repentant and accepting God's salvation and Him as our God etc. is our part in salvation and a start in regeneration. I believe that living a Christian life is a process that is ongoing.

There is a necessity for both salvation and works but salvation and works are not the same.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[Hentenza]

lol I knew you'd say that. lol

I guess I'm predictable.

I believe regeneration is part of salvation...yes. However, I see regeneration in bigger terms than simply being baptized.

Yep. Totally agree.

We can take the thief on the cross next to Jesus etc, etc.... For instance, truly being repentant and accepting God's salvation and Him as our God etc. is our part in salvation and a start in regeneration.

In the case of the thief on the cross his regeneration was complete since he was saved.

I believe that living a Christian life is a process that is ongoing.

Sure but what enables you to live a Christian life?

There is a necessity for both salvation and works but salvation and works are not the same.

Absolutely. In scripture we are saved by faith and judged by works.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Here is the curve. Which are those works that God prepared in advance for us to do?

 

[Colleen1]

I guess I'm predictable.

Well... let's just say the human nature of a debater is fairly predictable.

...me included.

Yep. Totally agree.

In the case of the thief on the cross his regeneration was complete since he was saved.

Agree and cool beans to both.

Sure but what enables you to live a Christian life?

Wow, that's a whole 'nother 10 threads...20 threads and days later.

Absolutely. In scripture we are saved by faith and judged by works.

I agree with this to 'some' degree but let's just say I don't agree with it in an obsessive compulsive sort of way. I must be perfect or else.... Too much Bible that says otherwise.

Here is the curve. Which are those works that God prepared in advance for us to do?

I think there are given guidelines in the Bible that are important. Secondly, I think that would depend on our gifts etc. Thirdly, I think that is between God and oneself ..depending on what God asks of us. He can ask some pretty big things that seem beyond our gifts or what he ask of others.... depends.

 

[Hentenza]

Well... let's just say the human nature of a debater is fairly predictable.

...me included.


Agree and cool beans to both.

Wow, that's a whole 'nother 10 threads...20 threads and days later.

I think there are given guidelines in the Bible that are important. Secondly, I think that would depend on our gifts etc. Thirdly, I think that is between God and oneself ..depending on what God asks of us. He can ask some pretty big things that seem beyond our gifts or what he ask of others.... depends.

Agree. This why Jesus tells us that "23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.” (Matt. 13)

I agree with this to 'some' degree but let's just say I don't agree with it in an obsessive compulsive sort of way. I must be perfect or else.... Too much Bible that says otherwise.

I isolated this comment simply because Paul does explain it in 1 Cor. 3. No one will be perfect but all that have faith will be saved in spite of our imperfections. Our works will be judged but the salvation of the faithful will remain. Scripture talks about 7 crowns that will be our reward resulting from the judgment of our works. However, will will throw them at Jesus feet.

 

[Colleen1]

Agree. This why Jesus tells us that "23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.” (Matt. 13)

I isolated this comment simply because Paul does explain it in 1 Cor. 3. No one will be perfect but all that have faith will be saved in spite of our imperfections. Our works will be judged but the salvation of the faithful will remain. Scripture talks about 7 crowns that will be our reward resulting from the judgment of our works.

Amen to that! God's grace is great.

However, will will throw them at Jesus feet.

Not sure what you mean... will we give Jesus back the praise?

 

[Hentenza]

Amen to that! God's grace is great.

Not sure what you mean... will we give Jesus back the praise?

Absolutely. The praise is for Him not for us. After all, without Him we would still be in our sins.

 

[Colleen1]

Absolutely. The praise is for Him not for us. After all, without Him we would still be in our sins.

Exactly Some times it takes our moments of hardship and humility to realize this but yes... exactly.... For me it's the recognition of the Trinity...not lessening Jesus in any way. ...just the way I relate to God.

 

[Hentenza]

Exactly Some times it takes our moments of hardship and humility to realize this but yes... exactly.... For me it's the recognition of the Trinity...not lessening Jesus in any way. ...just the way I relate to God.

 

[Crandaddy]

It sounds like we're speaking of two different "theys."

Ah yes, I think I see what you mean, sorry.

But I don't see how we could truly earn our salvation, unless we adopt something like a Pelagian understanding of human nature. Earning implies merit, which implies that we have something to offer God that he ought to honor. I'm not sure what else besides an unblemished, unfallen, Pelagian human nature would furnish such a thing.

In any case, the idea that we could earn our salvation is entirely the wrong way to understand a "faith and works" soteriology. We participate in the Divine Life by accepting and cooperating with God's Grace, but we are utterly incapable of earning or meriting that Grace.

If works can never earn our salvation and since we must choose to cooperate with divine grace, and cooperating with divine grace is a work, then how can our works not earn our salvation?

Because choosing to cooperate with God's Grace, though it is “work” at least insofar as it consists in act of free will, is not meritorious on our part, as if God were somehow under obligation to honor or repay something that we might present to him of ourselves. Grace and salvation are still perfectly free, because nothing we could ever possibly do would suffice to earn them, but even a free gift must be accepted. I just have a different understanding of how we accept God's Gifts.

I believe that we accept them by living in the Life of the risen Christ, by loving God first and neighbor second, and by allowing Him to transform us into “Christ-selves” (as Lewis would put it). In other words, I don't believe that salvation comes simply by mental belief and acceptance, followed by a prayer, but rather by giving our whole selves over to God as “living sacrifices” for Him to refashion into His own likeness.

What does "forcing" entail?

Baptizing persons of consenting age and competence against their will, or else baptizing persons not of consenting age or competence against the will of those in whose care they are rightly entrusted (e.g. baptizing young children against the wishes of their parents).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Babies have no idea what's going on. They don't understand that they're being baptized. They might not like getting wet and make a fuss about that, but I don't think that's quite the same thing as forcibly baptizing someone of consenting age, even as they knowingly and willingly reject that baptism.

Because most babies brought into the world under the care of modern medicine are not in acute danger of dying shortly after birth. For those that are, clergy might indeed be called in to administer emergency baptism.

But again, even without clergy, anyone at all can administer an emergency baptism, should the need arise.

So, only babies in acute danger of dying shortly after birth need to be baptized? It seems that there must be a lot of those around since so many babies are baptized.

I only suggested the maternity ward as a venue because it is most convenient to find the babies there. It is much more difficult to contact people and survey them to find out if they have recently had a baby. If a hospital can circumcise baby boys on site surely they could baptize them as a general part of the birth procedure, don't you think? Then those kids would be saved (at least until they lose their salvation).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Our works can never earn our salvation. No church or denomination that I know of teaches that. Not even the Catholic Church (which is often accused of it) teaches that. We can choose to cooperate with Divine Grace or reject it, but we can never merit it by ourselves. That's a heresy called Pelagianism.

If we go around forcibly baptizing even non-mentally-infirm adults who knowingly and willingly reject it, then what good could that possibly do? Baptism is not an automatic ticket to heaven, nor is lack of baptism an automatic ticket to hell.

Forcibly baptizing people would turn people away from the Gospel, and so would probably result in more people going to hell.

So, if baptism does not save an individual, why baptize babies?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Correct. Our works could never earn salvation by themselves. However, that isn't what it meant. It is understood that they would be meaningless if Christ's sacrifice had not made them "count" with God and, with that, it is now up to you to earn your salvation. That's the teaching that is being referred to.

Thank you. That is precisely what I meant.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In effect, it is.

That is to say, we try to reach everyone with the Gospel which, if accepted by them, would be followed by a baptism. I assume that no one is recommending that we just run around throwing water on crowds in the street.

If that were the case, then sanctifying the water in a swimming pool would be more effective. However, as we all know baptism is not about getting people wet. It is about getting them wet with the correct words said while they are getting wet and, ideally, a compatible environment.

I once knew an older minister who made regular rounds in the local hospital, baptizing old, sick folks. He presented it in such a way as to have them understand that by getting baptized they would receive spiritual benefits and not doing it would result in penalties. He seemed to be fairly successful in his endeavors.

 

[Crandaddy]

So, only babies in acute danger of dying shortly after birth need to be baptized? It seems that there must be a lot of those around since so many babies are baptized.

"But Jesus said, Suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 19:14

Being born again and claimed for Christ is for everyone--even infants.

I only suggested the maternity ward as a venue because it is most convenient to find the babies there. It is much more difficult to contact people and survey them to find out if they have recently had a baby. If a hospital can circumcise baby boys on site surely they could baptize them as a general part of the birth procedure, don't you think? Then those kids would be saved (at least until they lose their salvation).

Baptism is not so urgent that it must be done immediately and at once even to healthy babies.

Besides, remember that clergy are the ones who should perform Holy Baptism, even though they're not the only ones who can, and ordinarily, baptism is not so urgent that they need to station themselves at hospitals in order to baptize every baby just as soon as it comes into the world. Persons other than clergy should perform Baptism only under emergent circumstances.

 

[Crandaddy]

So, if baptism does not save an individual, why baptize babies?

Sorry, didn't notice this before...

Baptism is the ordinary means whereby we receive the initially justifying and sanctifying Grace of regeneration (i.e. of being "born again"). It washes away the stain of original sin, as well as all other sins previously committed, and it leaves an indelible "mark" on the baptized person, which is why once a person has been validly baptized, that person cannot ever be "re"-baptized. We can't (always) see that "mark," but it's there.

Because Baptism washes away sin and justifies a person before God, it can serve to effect someone's salvation, and it does do so unless that person forsakes his/her baptism by turning to sin and does not repent.

 

[Crandaddy]

I once knew an older minister who made regular rounds in the local hospital, baptizing old, sick folks. He presented it in such a way as to have them understand that by getting baptized they would receive spiritual benefits and not doing it would result in penalties. He seemed to be fairly successful in his endeavors.

I don't approve of that approach. I don't believe people should be coerced into being baptized. Nor do I believe that Baptism should be presented as conferring benefits on the baptized, as some sort of reward for good behavior.

Those of consenting age and competency should be baptized only if they desire to forsake their life of sin and enter into the new Life of the risen Christ as sons and daughters of God, and Baptism should be presented to them as the initiation into this new Life.

 

[RisingSpirit]

[SIZE=+1]Sacraments are signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace (CoG),
and also what in Reformation Theology is called "Means of Grace".



When we say "Means of Grace" we do NOT mean Saving Grace.
( A point some credobaptists miss in discussing pedobaptism. )
Nobody is saved by receiving a sacrament !

By "Means of Grace" it's meant that the recipient receives benefit
of non-salvific grace. Yet this benefits only the regenerate Elect.
It strengthens the Believer's faith. For even those saved by faith
can have that faith increased (Luke 17:5).

The sacraments being a special working of the Holy Spirit indwelling
each of the saints.



As "seals" the sacraments confirm what we already believe.

As "signs" the sacraments reveal more to us that we should
believe.



What they are not...

Foremost, sacraments are not something we do for God. They
represent what God does for us !

E.g., baptism is frequently thought of as a 'promise' we make to
the Lord. It ain't. Acts 2:38-39 being very clear that...

"The promise is for you and your children
and for all who are far off -for all whom the
Lord our God will call" (NIV 1984 Edition)

The "promise" of baptism is "for you", and NOT 'by you' ![/SIZE]

 

[Rev Randy]

Under what circumstances would you perform a conditional baptism, Randy?

There are but two reasons:
1: The convert is unsure if his/her baptism is valid.
2. The Church is unsure (cannot confirm) his/her baptism is valid.
It boils down to whether the baptism was in the Name of the Trinity and other factors.
It is not a second baptism. I'm pretty sure Rome and others do this as well.