Getting Married After an Ultimatum

[Luther073082]

I agree.

I think marriage should be FAR harder to enter into - and I would leave divorce alone. Where the problem of people not taking marriage seriously enough should be addressed is BEFORE people get married.

And how exactly would you make marriage harder to get into so as it would reduce the number of divorces??

The other problem I have with this idea is that marriage has NEVER been hard to get into, and we did just fine up until about the 60's or 70's with divorce rates. At those times almost all marriages ended in the death of one of the spouses and not in divorce.

However in the 60's and the 70's we did make divorce significantly easier to do.

It just doesn't make sense to me to stick with the easy divorce the one thing that changed right as the divorce rates sky rocketed and instead make it more difficult to get married, the one thing that has never historically been done.

And honestly, it's probably harder to marry now then it ever was. But yet it's done nothing for divorce rates. What makes you think making it even harder is going to help the problem?

 

[Avniel]

Then he needs to say no. Any person who after marriage says "I didn't want to marry her, she made me" is very immature, and they caused the unstable marriage because they should have just said no.

Anyone who dates someone as a "time filler" is a pathetic human being.

Also I know more immature people then mature. I know more unwise people then wise.

 

[Hetta]

I think dating should be a learning process.

So, in a sense, most of the people you're going to date *are* time fillers.

Most relationships, IMHO, are destined for failure. Most dates end up going nowhere - because the truth is - most people you meet are incompatible with you.

In math - there are things called parabolic curves... Simply put envision a camel's hump... It starts at nothing - it curves up to an apex - then it dwindles back down to nothing.

That's kind of like compatibility. There are very few people you're going to find detestable and despicable - that you're truly incompatible with. There's a huge number of people that you're *sorta* compatible with... Then on the opposite end of the spectrum there are few few few people that you really could build something "forever" with.

The very nature of dating is to find out where that person is on that scale...and by necessity...you're going to find most unacceptable as a potential lifetime mate.

Perhaps then it is this 'dating around' that is at fault. I don't encourage my of-age children to randomly date. But that is me and my children of course. Rather that they know a wide pool of people, that they go out to bowl or to the movie with a group of people, and that way there is not the pressure to pair up, or have sex, and to commit too early. They get to know people better, get some idea what their preference are (or are not) and then later, in a few years (25, perhaps, as you said) they can pinpoint one person where they want exclusivity.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

Honestly if a guy is stringing her along then he needs to know the simple fact that if he's not going to marry her then she's going to move on.

I guess you could call that an ultimatum. . . I just think it's clear communication, that if this isn't leading to marriage within an reasonable amount of time, then it's going to end.

I don't buy into excuses of "is it God's will" or "well this is a one time thing, so I want to get it right."

If you are dating you aught to know at that time that God designed you for marriage, if you arn't even sure about that, then you shouldn't be dating or courting a woman. (Same thing for women, shouldn't be dating if they arn't sure if they want to get married in the first place.)

And getting it right, if you are older (especially above 25) you should be able to know within 1 or 2 years if this is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with.

I was in a long distance relationship and I was sure about it and asked my wife to marry me 8 and a half months after we got together.

If after 2 years (assuming you are over 25), you arn't sure yet then either you need to grow up or the answer is no, that this isn't a person you should spend the rest of your life with.

Pretty much agree with this.

I think that people need to be having open communication about what they want out of a relationship and where it is headed VERY early on. Mature adults talk about what they want, are open and honest about it.

If one person in a relationship has marriage on his/her mind, he/she needs to make sure the other person knows that. If one person in a relationship is not sure about marriage or doesn't want marriage, he/she needs to be open and honest about that.

Also... I'm not big on traditions and the whole "the man has to ask the woman" thing is, IMHO, a tradition that should die. Marriage is a big commitment with big consequences for both the man and the woman entering into it. It should be something that is discussed between two adults. Not something that is decided by one of the people where the other is left waiting and wondering and hoping. But that's JMHO. (And FTR, my husband proposed to me, but we had already discussed and agreed that we wanted to marry one another.)

 

[Hetta]

Also I know more immature people then mature. I know more unwise people then wise.

Maybe that is your age (which I don't know, but guess younger than I) but however, quite sad. Perhaps you should widen your circle of acquaintance (no sarcasm intended).

 

[DZoolander]

Isn't all that's required to marry that you sign a form at city hall - and stand before a judge?

At least require a damn class.

And - as for what went on prior to the 60's/70's - etc... While people may have remained "married" - I'd argue that it was in name only. People certainly weren't more virtuous.

Heck - I think about my own family. I'm the youngest in a family that should have stopped having kids probably 10-15 years before I was born. As a result - I've got a LOT of people in my family that are significantly older than I am (and therefore know their stories from the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, etc).

The one thing I can tell you is - there was an equal (if not greater) amount of nonsense going on back then as there is now. Like - I've got a cousin that was married to some schmo. He was arrested numerous times back in the 50's for exposing himself on the beach, had numerous affairs, was an absolute cad, etc.

Was divorce in CA difficult enough in the 50's that it was a barrier? Sure. Did she remain "married"? Sure. Was it a sham in my eyes? You betcha.

Back to my point - you ain't gonna compel righteous behavior by making "bad" things like divorce more punitive in nature. All you're gonna end up with are schmucky people making the same schmucky immoral decisions - in a different context (married vs. divorced).

...and the simple fact of legally remaining "married" is not a virtue in my eyes.

 

[Hetta]

Pretty much agree with this.

I think that people need to be having open communication about what they want out of a relationship and where it is headed VERY early on. Mature adults talk about what they want, are open and honest about it.

If one person in a relationship has marriage on his/her mind, he/she needs to make sure the other person knows that. If one person in a relationship is not sure about marriage or doesn't want marriage, he/she needs to be open and honest about that.

Also... I'm not big on traditions and the whole "the man has to ask the woman" thing is, IMHO, a tradition that should die. Marriage is a big commitment with big consequences for both the man and the woman entering into it. It should be something that is discussed between two adults. Not something that is decided by one of the people where the other is left waiting and wondering and hoping. But that's JMHO. (And FTR, my husband proposed to me, but we had already discussed and agreed that we wanted to marry one another.)

We are in agreement.

After the unsureness, when he seemed to cool off, my husband began to discuss marriage with me, so it was not a surprise when he proposed, because he made it clear that he would. But he also knew I would accept because I had told him that I wanted nothing more than to be married to him.

I would not be opposed to a woman proposing to a man. But again not as a surprise. When they both knew and were ready for marriage.

 

[Avniel]

Pretty much agree with this.

I think that people need to be having open communication about what they want out of a relationship and where it is headed VERY early on. Mature adults talk about what they want, are open and honest about it.

If one person in a relationship has marriage on his/her mind, he/she needs to make sure the other person knows that. If one person in a relationship is not sure about marriage or doesn't want marriage, he/she needs to be open and honest about that.

Also... I'm not big on traditions and the whole "the man has to ask the woman" thing is, IMHO, a tradition that should die. Marriage is a big commitment with big consequences for both the man and the woman entering into it. It should be something that is discussed between two adults. Not something that is decided by one of the people where the other is left waiting and wondering and hoping. But that's JMHO. (And FTR, my husband proposed to me, but we had already discussed and agreed that we wanted to marry one another.)

My wife and I talked about marriage while she was in her masters program and I was in my Sr year at morehouse. I didn't have the money to finish my program and several people on this site advised me not to marry her until I finished my last sem. I didn't listen and we went on with our plan that we had talked about despite what was going on in my life. I purposed to her because I loved her and needed her in my life, plus she's HOOOT!! it was a conversation I brought up.

I don't think what you are talking about is the same thing as saying, if you don't marry me I am going to leave and you have 3 months to do it. Asking, "so do you see us getting married if so when?" is something different. One is about pressure to get a desired result the other is about wanting to know where things are going.

 

[LinkH]

If, as you say, men (but it is not only men) consider marriage to be a one time deal and they take it seriously, then why should there be trouble later on his part? If he takes it seriously, as you say, then he wouldn't propose on a whim - or are you saying that men are likely to go into marriage on a whim and later regret it and make life miserable for the wife?

No, I wasn't thinking of all that. I was thinking more along the lines of whether a woman giving an ultimatum to a man who couldn't make up his mind was a bad 'long-term strategy.' On the one hand, it could push a man whose real problem is he can't make a decision about something big like this without external stimuli to marry her, but on the other hand, she could end up with a man who wasn't all that committed to the idea of marrying her who makes the decision under pressure.

I have never experienced this. I have never unwillingly given my heart to someone and been "broken hearted" that they didn't love me back. My husband loved me and wanted to marry (he says) from the first time we spoke to each other. I wanted only marriage and would not have dated for a long time nor cohabited. He did cool off a little bit at one point during our courtship, and at that time, I thought about dating someone else - not to tease him, but because I thought he had decided not to propose. He didn't know I was thinking about moving on, but then he proposed anyway. It turned out his cooling off period was because he was weighing up whether to propose or not. So it all worked out.

That's great. You found a man who was marriage minded and knew he wanted to marry you in particular. Dating used to be a way to get married. Now it's taken on a life of it's own and people shack up.

In the situation I am thinking of, the man tells the woman that they are 'just friends' and occasionally sees her when she is in town, and has mentioned he is praying about marriage. It's being going on for quite a while. I don't think she has much choice, emotionally, other than something like an ultimatum or telling him she can't see him as a friend and will look elsewhere for marriage. But I think the actual ultimatum puts too much pressure on a man. If he needs an ultimatum to get him to proposed, maybe he doesn't want to marry the woman badly enough, and it's better not to use the ultimatum at all.

With a daughter dating a young man, I would tell her that if she wanted marriage with him, she should bring it up within 6 months of the courtship. If he ran away, then shrug your shoulders, move on, find a man who does value you and want marriage. And for this reason - do not commit your heart or your body!

I agree with that. But I wonder if a young woman would be better off mentioning a desire to marriage as soon as he really starts to show interest and scare him off before they get very emotionally involved. She should probably mention it as her general goal for dating, not something she is expecting of him per se. I think it's good to clarify if the other person is dating to find a marriage partner or just for fun, and avoid the ones just seeking fun.

 

[JohnDB]

My wife and I have a wonderful marriage...but she also let me know when she wanted her proposal by.

she wanted to get ready for the wedding in time.

And where I had said nothing about getting married or even hinted at it...she still knew my heart and what I really wanted.

THAT is the big difference between blackmail/strong arming/extortion and a nudging.

We both got what we wanted...which was the same thing all along.

 

[Avniel]

Maybe that is your age (which I don't know, but guess younger than I) but however, quite sad. Perhaps you should widen your circle of acquaintance (no sarcasm intended).

I'm 26 but there are a lot of people older then me that I view as unwise. Even on this site have you ever paid attention how people reply to each other in such a childish way that's immature.

I know a lot of brilliant and educated people but most people I encounter professors, business managers, lawyers, law school students, teachers, students, bus drivers, cab drivers.....ect are very immature and childish.

I talk about it often but you know I have had a experience where I thought someone was going to kill me, I have seen other very violent acts in my life, I have seen third world poverty and it has really changed my opinions on what is maturity and what isn't.

 

[Hetta]

No, I wasn't thinking of all that. I was thinking more along the lines of whether a woman giving an ultimatum to a man who couldn't make up his mind was a bad 'long-term strategy.' On the one hand, it could push a man whose real problem is he can't make a decision about something big like this without external stimuli to marry her, but on the other hand, she could end up with a man who wasn't all that committed to the idea of marrying her who makes the decision under pressure.

I still don't see it as "pressure". She does not have a shotgun to his head, I think. So, he can say that he's not ready to marry, regardless of pressure, and if she want to find someone who is ready, to go ahead.

In the situation I am thinking of, the man tells the woman that they are 'just friends' and occasionally sees her when she is in town, and has mentioned he is praying about marriage. It's being going on for quite a while. I don't think she has much choice, emotionally, other than something like an ultimatum or telling him she can't see him as a friend and will look elsewhere for marriage. But I think the actual ultimatum puts too much pressure on a man. If he needs an ultimatum to get him to proposed, maybe he doesn't want to marry the woman badly enough, and it's better not to use the ultimatum at all.

"Just friends" does not sound like a situation where marriage will happen. If a man had told me he wanted to be friends only, I would be looking somewhere else for my future husband. If she honestly tells him that she wants marriage or nothing, why can he not honestly tell her that he is not ready for marriage? This leave her free to find another man.

So much of this sounds to me like the man wants to have his cake and eat it too. Keep the girl, but don't commit, and in the meantime her fertility clock is going tick tock tick tock ..

I agree with that. But I wonder if a young woman would be better off mentioning a desire to marriage as soon as he really starts to show interest and scare him off before they get very emotionally involved. She should probably mention it as her general goal for dating, not something she is expecting of him per se. I think it's good to clarify if the other person is dating to find a marriage partner or just for fun, and avoid the ones just seeking fun.

If he is scared then he is probably not marriage material. Let him go. Find someone more mature. But no, I am not saying that the woman might say in the first six months of dating that she wants to marry him, but only that - in all honesty - she wants to be a wife one day. So he knows she will not be his shack up partner, or his long long long term girlfriend, and that is serious about what her future intention are.

 

[Luther073082]

Pretty much agree with this.

I think that people need to be having open communication about what they want out of a relationship and where it is headed VERY early on. Mature adults talk about what they want, are open and honest about it.

If one person in a relationship has marriage on his/her mind, he/she needs to make sure the other person knows that. If one person in a relationship is not sure about marriage or doesn't want marriage, he/she needs to be open and honest about that.

Also... I'm not big on traditions and the whole "the man has to ask the woman" thing is, IMHO, a tradition that should die. Marriage is a big commitment with big consequences for both the man and the woman entering into it. It should be something that is discussed between two adults. Not something that is decided by one of the people where the other is left waiting and wondering and hoping. But that's JMHO. (And FTR, my husband proposed to me, but we had already discussed and agreed that we wanted to marry one another.)

I'm not opposed to a tradition about the male doing the asking and I'm not necessarily *for* that tradition either. To me it's a non-issue.

What I am against though is this culture that has sprang up around engagements that it has to be a surprise and it has be super ultra romantic involving a super elaborate and complex plan with all sorts of bells and whistles and non-sense.

My wife and I discussed marriage and when we would be ready for marriage well before I asked her offically to marry me. I even asked to get her ring size ahead of time so that I could have it sized for her.

Yes, the surprising her when you ask is more *romantic*. But what's practical should be more important then what is romantic. And what's practical is that they discuss marriage ahead of time and discuss a timeline of when they would like to be formally engaged and when they would get married.

My wife was a bit surprised when I ask, but if you ever talk to her she will tell you that she knew I was going to ask, she just didn't know I would pick that particular time to do so.

At some point in a relationship, maybe at about 4 to 6 months (depending on age) the couple should discuss between the two of them where the relationship was going and when, if all goes well they would be getting married.

I say depending on age because there is no reason that kids in high school in their first relationships or even young adults attending college necessarily need to do this right away. Being young they get a bit of leeway on that.

But once you are 25 plus, your dating should have a purpose and that purpose should be discussed and understood by both people. And the idea that the man should have to ask out of the blue should be dispensed with for a more practical understanding that we will get formally engaged around this particular time.

 

[Avniel]

If he is scared then he is probably not marriage material. Let him go. Find someone more mature. But no, I am not saying that the woman might say in the first six months of dating that she wants to marry him, but only that - in all honesty - she wants to be a wife one day. So he knows she will not be his shack up partner, or his long long long term girlfriend, and that is serious about what her future intention are.

That is different then telling someone ok you have 3 months to marry me or I am gone. If you have to say that he or she should have already left.

 

[Luther073082]

That is different then telling someone ok you have 3 months to marry me or I am gone. If you have to say that he or she should have already left.

There should be an understanding as to what is a reasonable amount of time to propose though.

They need to understand if they are on a 1 year plan or a 2 year plan and that 5 year plans are not acceptable.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

My wife and I talked about marriage while she was in her masters program and I was in my Sr year at morehouse. I didn't have the money to finish my program and several people on this site advised me not to marry her until I finished my last sem. I didn't listen and we went on with our plan that we had talked about despite what was going on in my life. I purposed to her because I loved her and needed her in my life, plus she's HOOOT!! it was a conversation I brought up.

I don't think what you are talking about is the same thing as saying, if you don't marry me I am going to leave and you have 3 months to do it. Asking, "so do you see us getting married if so when?" is something different. One is about pressure to get a desired result the other is about wanting to know where things are going.

I think that MOST people these days discuss marriage before anyone "pops the question." So, really the whole "popping" thing is more ritual than substance, anyway.

But regarding the ultimatum thing.... I think it's unlikely to come to that if people are open and honest from the get-go. That includes honesty with themselves. If a couple talks about what they want, where the relationship is going at the beginning, middle and all the way to the end.... an ultimatum is unlikely to be issued.

 

[Avniel]

There should be an understanding as to what is a reasonable amount of time to propose though.

They need to understand if they are on a 1 year plan or a 2 year plan and that 5 year plans are not acceptable.

I dated my wife for 6 years....how is that not acceptable we took our time.

If two people date their sr year in high school by their jr year in college they should become married?

I met my wife when I was 17 years old the summer before I went to college in a freshmen program we should have been married at 19?

 

[Luther073082]

I think that MOST people these days discuss marriage before anyone "pops the question." So, really the whole "popping" thing is more ritual than substance, anyway.

But regarding the ultimatum thing.... I think it's unlikely to come to that if people are open and honest from the get-go. That includes honesty with themselves. If a couple talks about what they want, where the relationship is going at the beginning, middle and all the way to the end.... an ultimatum is unlikely to be issued.

I don't know that they necessarily do. A lot of the secular wisdom tells women that she shouldn't bring up marriage until they've been together for ages otherwise it might scare him away.

And the secular wisdom for guys is that you have to completely knock her off her feet surprise her as though she had no idea it was coming.

I don't think that many people in the modern day really discuss it. Maybe they do. . . it's hard to say as there arn't any real statistics we could use to determine that. But the secular wisdom that is often heard seems to push against it.

 

[Hetta]

I think that MOST people these days discuss marriage before anyone "pops the question." So, really the whole "popping" thing is more ritual than substance, anyway.

But regarding the ultimatum thing.... I think it's unlikely to come to that if people are open and honest from the get-go. That includes honesty with themselves. If a couple talks about what they want, where the relationship is going at the beginning, middle and all the way to the end.... an ultimatum is unlikely to be issued.

Yes!!!

This is why I go on and on about honesty. That way, nobody is left fooling foolish or being angry because the other person wanted something different, and didn't say.

 

[Luther073082]

I dated my wife for 6 years....how is that not acceptable we took our time.

If two people date their sr year in high school by their jr year in college they should become married?

I met my wife when I was 17 years old the summer before I went to college in a freshmen program we should have been married at 19?

If you read through my posts I have specifically stated that this depends on age and that people who are dating in high school or college have a lot more leeway on that. But that when someone is 25+ they should be able to know and be engaged within 2 years.