Getting Married After an Ultimatum

[Hetta]

I dated my wife for 6 years....how is that not acceptable we took our time.

If two people date their sr year in high school by their jr year in college they should become married?

I met my wife when I was 17 years old the summer before I went to college in a freshmen program we should have been married at 19?

Was it your understanding that you would be married? I think this is what he is saying. If it is your understanding that you will be married, and you both know it and are only looking at 'when', then this is acceptable. I would wait in those circumstances, and would advise another woman to wait. It is only when someone is just hanging on, never knowing, and afraid to ask, and the relationship drags on .. I think this is what he meant.

 

[Avniel]

I don't know that they necessarily do. A lot of the secular wisdom tells women that she shouldn't bring up marriage until they've been together for ages otherwise it might scare him away.

And the secular wisdom for guys is that you have to completely knock her off her feet surprise her as though she had no idea it was coming.

I don't think that many people in the modern day really discuss it. Maybe they do. . . it's hard to say as there arn't any real statistics we could use to determine that. But the secular wisdom that is often heard seems to push against it.

Even in the secular world they bring up marriage. There are websites secular websites dedicated to how to bring up marriage, shows on tv have talked about this, secular psychologists ect.

The fact is the average for couples to become engaged is 2 years..

 

[ChristianGolfer]

I'm not opposed to a tradition about the male doing the asking and I'm not necessarily *for* that tradition either. To me it's a non-issue.

What I am against though is this culture that has sprang up around engagements that it has to be a surprise and it has be super ultra romantic involving a super elaborate and complex plan with all sorts of bells and whistles and non-sense.

Oh my goodness, could not agree more. It's ridiculous. And how much money people spend on a big fancy to-do! What a waste.

What I really don't get are the big public proposals. Ugh.

My wife and I discussed marriage and when we would be ready for marriage well before I asked her offically to marry me. I even asked to get her ring size ahead of time so that I could have it sized for her.

Yep. My husband picked out my ring - after I told him generally what I wanted - but showed it to me before he ordered it to make sure I liked it.

Yes, the surprising her when you ask is more *romantic*. But what's practical should be more important then what is romantic. And what's practical is that they discuss marriage ahead of time and discuss a timeline of when they would like to be formally engaged and when they would get married.

Yes. Exactly.

Marriage isn't a business contract. But there are a LOT of practical, contractual aspects to joining your lives. All the warm and gushy romantic stuff is all well and good - but it's the practical stuff that's gonna be important in the long run.

I almost feel like the more romantic, the more showy all that stuff is, the less likely it is that the stuff of real substance is getting taken care of.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Sometimes on the dating forum, there are men who will date women who want to marry for a really long time and don't propose. Some people will say to give the man an ultimatum. I don't like that idea because I think a man should propose because he really wants to marry a woman and should care enough about her to pursue her and want to be married to her after. Maybe telling him that she doesn't want to see him because she wants a relationship with someone who wants to marry may work and cause him to want to marry her.

I understand the internal struggle of decision-making a man has to go through to propose. Maybe it's only men who consider marriage a one-time deal who take it that seriously. In my case, I really wanted to marry my wife. My struggle was with determining that the marriage was God's will specifically for me considering our callings and various other issues. It was a big deal for me, but I proposed after five months of my first conversation with my wife. It is a big commitment to make, and I understand why some men, even Christian men, would delay.

What I'd like to discuss in this forum is does anyone have experience with this sort of thing? If a woman either gives a man a real ultimatum or else just shuts down the relationship so that she can find someone to marry, and the man proposes after that, what kind of relationship are they likely to have? Is the lack of pursuit, desire, and decision-making on the part of the man something that may spell trouble later in the marriage?

I don't have direct experience with it, but I know of a few people who did it... It never ended well.

Call me old-fashioned, but I never believed that marriage is one of those things your partner brow-beats you into doing. You either do it, have an understanding it'll happen, or you're OK with how things are.

If you're at the point of delivering an ultimatum to get what you want, just leave.

 

[Hetta]

That is different then telling someone ok you have 3 months to marry me or I am gone. If you have to say that he or she should have already left.

But this is a way to find out if he or she should have left. If one or the other wants to marry - and some men do want to marry very much, my husband was one - then what is wrong in saying that they want to marry, and they think that the person they are dating might be the right one? If then he says he doesn't know, he will think about it, and he's still "thinking about it" six months later, then she might have a point in saying that she is not going to wait another six months. He needs to let her know if this is something he sees in their future, and if not, she will not want to date him any longer. What is the alternative to putting it this way? She is not going hang around for another six months and he still doesn't know, another six months .. still don't know; six more months .. okay, so now we are at two years since she talked about marriage and he still doesn't know? In that case, he most likely does not want to marry, or to marry her, but she waited two years to find out! If the girl was 25, she is now 27 and her opportunities to meet another man who does want to marry and have kids, and also her reproductive capabilities, have all just gone down considerably. So, better to be straight and say that she wants to marry, and she would like to know if he is interested, and that she would like him to think about it and respond within a set time limit.

 

[Avniel]

Was it your understanding that you would be married? I think this is what he is saying. If it is your understanding that you will be married, and you both know it and are only looking at 'when', then this is acceptable. I would wait in those circumstances, and would advise another woman to wait. It is only when someone is just hanging on, never knowing, and afraid to ask, and the relationship drags on .. I think this is what he meant.

The funny thing is I knew she would be my wife when I caught her staring at me in orientation class and when she smiled I knew she was mine. Hear her tell the story I was staring at her and one of her friends texted her and told her so she looked back and I was creeping her out so she smiled.......Who are you going to believe

But no all seriousness our first date was to this ice cream spot. And it was something about her that I knew was different then most girls I encountered. I knew I was going to marry her within 2 or 3 months of dating I waited a year to tell her I loved her. I waited until my Jr. year to tell her I wanted to marry her. The reason I say 2 or 3 months is because I gave up a lot of things to date her, I stopped smoking weed, I stopped fighting, I stopped skipping class, I stopped rapping, I stopped skipping church, I stopped cussing and I stopped doing all the naughty little fun things I used to enjoy.
That's when I knew I was going to marry her and that it was more then time filling.

 

[Hetta]

I don't have direct experience with it, but I know of a few people who did it... It never ended well.

Call me old-fashioned, but I never believed that marriage is one of those things your partner brow-beats you into doing. You either do it, have an understanding it'll happen, or you're OK with how things are.

If you're at the point of delivering an ultimatum to get what you want, just leave.

How do you "have an understanding" that marriage will happen? This would take words, yes? So, one of them saying that they are interested, and the other one agreeing.

That's all that anyone here is arguing. You discuss, you are honest .. end of story. The only problem is that when someone will not be honest.

 

[Hetta]

The funny thing is I knew she would be my wife when I caught her staring at me in orientation class and when she smiled I knew she was mine. Hear her tell the story I was staring at her and one of her friends texted her and told her so she looked back and I was creeping her out so she smiled.......Who are you going to believe

But no all seriousness our first date was to this ice cream spot. And it was something about her that I knew was different then most girls I encountered. I knew I was going to marry her within 2 or 3 months of dating I waited a year to tell her I loved her. I waited until my Jr. year to tell her I wanted to marry her. The reason I say 2 or 3 months is because I gave up a lot of things to date her, I stopped smoking weed, I stopped fighting, I stopped skipping class, I stopped rapping, I stopped skipping church, I stopped cussing and I stopped doing all the naughty little fun things I used to enjoy.
That's when I knew I was going to marry her and that it was more then time filling.

Beautiful. A match made in heaven, as they say.

 

[Hetta]

What I really don't get are the big public proposals. Ugh.

I laughed SO hard at this. Those may be wonderful occasions for some, but people send me links to these public proposals, and I find that I am rolling my eyes, and/or snorting with laughter. It is typical of the 'reality' culture which does not believe something was real unless it was 'caught on tv' - or on YouTube, which they perceive to be the same thing.

 

[DZoolander]

My wife and I are pretty secular in how we approach issues...and we had discussions about marriage, our goals, etc...long before we officially got engaged.

We'd actually bought the engagement ring together before the "official" proposal...and it kind of became a game of "when will he do it?"

I knew she would always do a visual check (she didn't know I realized this, but c'mon now) before we went on any meaningful trip/etc. So when I finally did do it - I gave the ring to her sister to hold and left the empty box where she kept it.

It worked

 

[Avniel]

Was it your understanding that you would be married? I think this is what he is saying. If it is your understanding that you will be married, and you both know it and are only looking at 'when', then this is acceptable. I would wait in those circumstances, and would advise another woman to wait. It is only when someone is just hanging on, never knowing, and afraid to ask, and the relationship drags on .. I think this is what he meant.

The thing is I can understand the need to make life goals is important in society in faith "Faith with out works is dead" is important however when we rush to reach these goals sometimes it can backfire on us.

My thing is if she has been dating for 2 years and she is ready and he isn't then maybe he doesn't value her as much as she values him. Which is a big issue coming into a marriage.

 

[DZoolander]

Dobedobedo...!

 

[Hetta]

The thing is I can understand the need to make life goals is important in society in faith "Faith with out works is dead" is important however when we rush to reach these goals sometimes it can backfire on us.

Do you perceive marriage as a 'life goal'? Marriage - one woman to one man is extremely biblical.

My thing is if she has been dating for 2 years and she is ready and he isn't then maybe he doesn't value her as much as she values him. Which is a big issue coming into a marriage.

Exactly!

So, if he says he isn't ready, then she knows it and can make a choice accordingly.

It's when one partner won't say that I think the problems arise, or when the "not ready" is trotted out for years and years. How long can you be not ready? Until it's too late to have a family? That's why full disclosure is important.

Her: I want to be a wife, and I believe that you would make a good husband for me.

Him: I would be a good husband for you, and I want you to be my wife.

OR

Him: I am not ready to marry you or anyone else, and won't be for at least 2 or 3 years.

In the case of #2, she can say to him that she does not want to wait, and it was great knowing him, and move on OR she can wait 2 or 3 years. If she waits, then she knows she is giving up 2/3 years of her life that she won't get back, and he may at the end of that period still not want to marry, or marry her. OR he may at the end of that time, or even before it, say he has changed his mind and wishes to marry. Either way, it takes honesty.

IMO, the ultimatums come about when there is silence.

Once the man has said "I don't want to marry you", she should absolutely walk away. To stay would be insane. Giving ultimatums would be insane. He's just not that into you .. move on.

 

[Hetta]

Ezoo, you have a beautiful family.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

How do you "have an understanding" that marriage will happen? This would take words, yes? So, one of them saying that they are interested, and the other one agreeing.

That's all that anyone here is arguing. You discuss, you are honest .. end of story. The only problem is that when someone will not be honest.

It all depends on the couple. Maybe it's a direct discussion, implied discussion, knowledge of common beliefs in relationships... With my husband, we never discussed it, but at one point we just knew we'd changed from wanting a long-term committed relationship to a marriage.

Sometimes it has nothing to do with honesty, it just has to do with having a hard time finding out what you want out of life, it just so happens sometimes somebody is along for the ride.

 

[DZoolander]

Ezoo, you have a beautiful family.

Our daughter is the beauty in our union!

 

[Hetta]

Our daughter is the beauty in our union!

That's very sweet, but it also takes good genes. She is adorable. I just want to hug her.

 

[DZoolander]

At first - she TOTALLY took after me and I started feeling badly for my wife...lol

She'd go places - and people would say stuff like "She looks like daddy, huh?"

But now - I see my wife's genes starting to express themselves - so I'm grateful for that

 

[Hetta]

It all depends on the couple. Maybe it's a direct discussion, implied discussion, knowledge of common beliefs in relationships... With my husband, we never discussed it, but at one point we just knew we'd changed from wanting a long-term committed relationship to a marriage.

Sometimes it has nothing to do with honesty, it just has to do with having a hard time finding out what you want out of life, it just so happens sometimes somebody is along for the ride.

And that's why honesty is required. To figure out who is just along for the ride. Those along for the ride, are the ones that lead to ultimatums, when could have just told the truth and no doubt found someone who also just wanted a 'ride'.

 

[LinkH]

If you read through my posts I have specifically stated that this depends on age and that people who are dating in high school or college have a lot more leeway on that. But that when someone is 25+ they should be able to know and be engaged within 2 years.

Unless its some kind of LDR with a lot of logistical problems or one or both are extremely busy, I think 1 year should be enough, maybe 1 and a half. If both have a reasonable amount of free time, you can find an awful out about the other person in six months to a year if you try. Maybe I'm looking at things through the filter of my own experience. I took my wife out to dinner every night for a few months. From the time we had our first conversation (we figured out we'd been introduced briefly a year before and said nice to meet you and that was it) till the time I proposed was five months and five days. But the proposal felt like is was very much overdue. Maybe if I had been a bit younger, in my early 20's maybe, I might not have been as serious.

For the most part, I don't think people should be dating if they aren't at a stage of life where they are realistically looking for a spouse. I didn't think these things through when I was dating, but having little girls and being exposed to other ideas are pulling me in a counter-cultural direction on this issue. Sending teenagers off alone in a car somewhere, who aren't even at a stage of life to seriously consider marriage, to have a good time is a recipe for temptation to sexual immorality. Even people--Christians who wouldn't consider shacking up-- in their early 20's nowadays often aren't seriously considering marriage yet.

I realize there are some people who meet the person they want to spend the rest of their lives with in high school, so there may be some exceptions to the idea I'm presenting.

I also think the whole recreational dating thing is just bad. I dabbled in it a bit when I was younger and hadn't thought it through. I thought I needed to get out there and date, applying some of my American standards for dating on girls in Asia where I was living, without fornicating, but still not considerate enough of women's feelings. Our dating practices are pretty rough on young women's hearts, and men's too. If you watch those movies set in 19th century England, there seemed to be some ethics about stating intentions and not leading women on. I think our culture needs to recover that.