Getting Married After an Ultimatum

[DZoolander]

All of those are good points.

What I don't get, honestly (and from the woman's point of view), is why you would ever want to try and coerce someone into something. It's my experience (albeit intrinsically limited...so I can't say it's a universal truth or anything) that you cannot compel anyone to do anything. The most you can hope for is a temporary reprieve given to you out of fear - before they inevitably end up going back to the condition they *want* to be in.

It's my core belief that people are what they are because that's how they WANT to be. What people are is a direct result of their preferences and beliefs. Now - that's not to say that those choices always make logical and/or "good" sense (like a drug addict or something)... but... it's *still* a direct result of their desires and who they are.

...and you ain't gonna change that. They *can* change - sure - but it's my experience that most people simply won't invest the time in figuring themselves out that's required in order to effectuate any kind of meaningful or real change.

That being said - sure - you can blackmail someone into doing something or implementing a short term change in behavior out of fear...but...it'll be short shrift before they're back to the behavior you didn't like beforehand. So - why even bother?

In the case of dating - date someone - believe them when they show you who they are - and make your decision based upon that.

 

[Avniel]

for a lot of guys it is the responsibility thingy that they really don't want.

Our society is full of that these days. We don't train our children (and many have never been taught to take up responsibility as an extra because it is the right thing to do) to go beyond themselves and take on responsibility.

When a guy "takes" a wife he is automatically taking on extra responsibility. (A Christian man does) of caring for her and providing for her...and any children that come about.

So when some guys don't feel as if their careers are going well enough or their incomes aren't enough (regardless of her career or income) they will try to avoid getting married.

I had a couple of friends and that was his reasoning. He played non-stop with different career paths and never settled down. His GF of several years (6) finally got tired of all his failed/unfulfilled plans at education or career paths and put it to him in no uncertain terms that she loved him but didn't want to wait any longer to get married and have kids. She warned him and warned him about an upcoming date in the far future. (she really wanted to marry him) But he goofed off and did nothing but play around more instead of settling down. (character flaw)

She broke up with him at her predetermined time and started dating another guy. It wasn't even six months later that she married him and began to spit out the kids.

And this guy is still unmarried to this day. He is a Christian man but is shacked up with a girl (last I heard and she was really kinda trashy by comparison) and unwilling to marry her either. I told him years ago he was making a lot of mistakes...about following through with any thing...it didn't matter apparently. He has paid the price. His GF was the prize that he let go.

How do you not put forth an ultimatum if a guy is dragging his feet about getting married?

It will motivate the good guys but will create an "easy out" of a bad relationship that seems comfortable. Pearls these days are really impossible to tell apart. There are the real natural pearls, the cultured pearls and the fake pearls...and from a distance they all look alike.

But it can backfire.

 

[Hetta]

for a lot of guys it is the responsibility thingy that they really don't want.

Our society is full of that these days. We don't train our children (and many have never been taught to take up responsibility as an extra because it is the right thing to do) to go beyond themselves and take on responsibility.

When a guy "takes" a wife he is automatically taking on extra responsibility. (A Christian man does) of caring for her and providing for her...and any children that come about.

So when some guys don't feel as if their careers are going well enough or their incomes aren't enough (regardless of her career or income) they will try to avoid getting married.

I had a couple of friends and that was his reasoning. He played non-stop with different career paths and never settled down. His GF of several years (6) finally got tired of all his failed/unfulfilled plans at education or career paths and put it to him in no uncertain terms that she loved him but didn't want to wait any longer to get married and have kids. She warned him and warned him about an upcoming date in the far future. (she really wanted to marry him) But he goofed off and did nothing but play around more instead of settling down. (character flaw)

She broke up with him at her predetermined time and started dating another guy. It wasn't even six months later that she married him and began to spit out the kids.

And this guy is still unmarried to this day. He is a Christian man but is shacked up with a girl (last I heard and she was really kinda trashy by comparison) and unwilling to marry her either. I told him years ago he was making a lot of mistakes...about following through with any thing...it didn't matter apparently. He has paid the price. His GF was the prize that he let go.

How do you not put forth an ultimatum if a guy is dragging his feet about getting married?

It will motivate the good guys but will create an "easy out" of a bad relationship that seems comfortable. Pearls these days are really impossible to tell apart. There are the real natural pearls, the cultured pearls and the fake pearls...and from a distance they all look alike.

I agree with you. At the end of the day, nobody is forcing anyone to get married. It's always a choice. This woman you talk about, she did the right thing. She gave him a deadline, and made it clear to him that she wanted to be married. He ignored the deadline - she married someone else and had kids. That's a win on her side. She didn't miss out on a guy who it sounds like has no direction in his life, and no backbone either.

Again, it's not force. It's straightforward, and honest, saying - marriage is what I want for my future. I could see myself being married to you. Is that something you are interested in? If not, then I reserve the right to find someone who has similar intentions to mine. Where is the ultimatum? It's a simple statement of facts, it's honest, it's direct. He has every right to say uh, no, I don't want to marry you, I just want to have fun. In which case she can say, then have fun without me - bye. No hurt feelings, no broken hearts, and they are both free to do their own thing.

It's honesty at the end of the day, and I am all for honesty in relationships. What is worse is that, 5 years down the road, she says that she thought they would get married one day, and he says that he never wants to get married, and she missed out on 5 years that are important to a woman for fertility. I would think that was worse.

This is what I tell my adult kids - be honest with your boyfriend or girlfriend. Tell them where you are at.

 

[Hetta]

But it can backfire.

How does it backfire? That he runs for the hills? Fine - let him go. He wasn't worth it.

 

[Hetta]

My advice to young, teenage woman, young adult women is to know what they are about. If they wish to marry above all, then be very careful and selective in who you date, and be very reserved in your behavior. If you are ready to date a man for a while, do so, but don't engage you heart. Keep an emotional distance. By all means have fun - which does not mean sex - but until you know that you could marry and be a wife and a mom, then do not start this falling in love thing, which can be controlled, it really can. You may date someone for 6 months, and then find out some awful character flaw - he gambles, or he's violent, or he's seeing other girls - and you can get out fast. If you date him for 6 months and he is a good guy, with just typical flaws like we all have, and you can see that you and he would make a good huband and wife and good parents, then it's okay to start thinking about that, and mentioning that this is your intention - to be a wife and a mom. Again, if he runs, no harm done. If he sticks around, then you might be on to a winner!

 

[DZoolander]

Pretty similar to what I intend to tell my daughter.

I also intend to put in there that "men aren't worth a damn until they're at least 25 - and that doesn't mean date 25 year old men when you're 15. It means - date age appropriately - but don't even let marriage cross your mind until you're around that age."

 

[Hetta]

What I don't get, honestly (and from the woman's point of view), is why you would ever want to try and coerce someone into something. It's my experience (albeit intrinsically limited...so I can't say it's a universal truth or anything) that you cannot compel anyone to do anything. The most you can hope for is a temporary reprieve given to you out of fear - before they inevitably end up going back to the condition they *want* to be in.

Men must be weak if they can be "coerced" into marriage. Just explain to me one thing - if he is "coerced" into marriage because he doen't want to lose her - what is to stop him being a good husband to her? If he loves her and wants to keep her, that should be a good thing for a marriage, no? It means that he wants to keep her, not lose her. I would think that if he didn't love her, he would say, "okay, go."

 

[contango]

If a man wants to marry a woman he will propose, but if he doesn't want to marry her he should allow her to be free to date other men.

Not always as simple as that.

I remember a couple of friends who had been together for years, she wanted to get married but he seemed hesitant. I couldn't understand why he was so hesitant so one time when we could chat without the ladies I asked him what was holding him back.

It turned out he was concerned about holding her back - he thought she could find someone who could give her a better life than he could and he didn't want to be the one who gave her a mediocre life when he thought she deserved better than he could provide.

As it happens they are now married, after a bit longer he figured that although she probably could find someone who could give her a better life what she wanted was a life with him.

 

[Hetta]

I also intend to put in there that "men aren't worth a damn until they're at least 25 - and that doesn't mean date 25 year old men when you're 15.

 

[Hetta]

Not always as simple as that.

I remember a couple of friends who had been together for years, she wanted to get married but he seemed hesitant. I couldn't understand why he was so hesitant so one time when we could chat without the ladies I asked him what was holding him back.

It turned out he was concerned about holding her back - he thought she could find someone who could give her a better life than he could and he didn't want to be the one who gave her a mediocre life when he thought she deserved better than he could provide.

As it happens they are now married, after a bit longer he figured that although she probably could find someone who could give her a better life what she wanted was a life with him.

Awwww. How sweet that he was looking out for her, and all she wanted was him.

 

[Avniel]

How does it backfire? That he runs for the hills? Fine - let him go. He wasn't worth it.

I think that it backfires if he agrees and doesn't really want to be married causing him to feel forced and eventually resent her when he finally grows a back bone. I can never tell me wife "I didn't even want to get married you forced me" thats got be some hurtful stuff to realize that your spouse never wanted to marry you they just did it because they folded under pressure.

See the whole thing maybe he wasn't worth it.....what if she wasn't worth it. What if he felt he was better then her and that's why he didn't purpose because he felt he deserved more and she was just a time filler?

That marriage is not built on a stable foundation.

What does he say when asked "why did you two get married?" "It was because she wanted to get married so you know I so I asked her."

That is a lot different then my "I knew she was the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with so I asked her to marry me and she said yes."

One is about a fear of being alone the other is about love.

 

[Hetta]

There is a young woman who worked for me for a time and she has dated the same young man all through college and graduate school. They are finally getting married next year. She has wanted to get married to him for a long time. In their case, she gave him an ultimatum about 5 or 6 years ago, but she never held him to it. IMO, if you issue an ultimatum, you need to stick to it, but she said that she loved him too much, which in my mind is where some people go wrong - they were lovers in the physical sense, and this ties people closer together where they think they have too much to lose by splitting up and "starting over". So, they are finally getting married. I don't think too much of the young man, but she loves him, and I hope that they are happy.

 

[Avniel]

There is a young woman who worked for me for a time and she has dated the same young man all through college and graduate school. They are finally getting married next year. She has wanted to get married to him for a long time. In their case, she gave him an ultimatum about 5 or 6 years ago, but she never held him to it. IMO, if you issue an ultimatum, you need to stick to it, but she said that she loved him too much, which in my mind is where some people go wrong - they were lovers in the physical sense, and this ties people closer together where they think they have too much to lose by splitting up and "starting over". So, they are finally getting married. I don't think too much of the young man, but she loves him, and I hope that they are happy.

Why don't you think to much of him.

 

[DZoolander]

Men must be weak if they can be "coerced" into marriage. Just explain to me one thing - if he is "coerced" into marriage because he doen't want to lose her - what is to stop him being a good husband to her? If he loves her and wants to keep her, that should be a good thing for a marriage, no? It means that he wants to keep her, not lose her. I would think that if he didn't love her, he would say, "okay, go."

I think many people are fundamentally weak - and often make choices that result in long term pain in lieu of short term pain relief. Think about smoking - for instance. How many people subject themselves to the potential of a lifetime of pain because they can't withstand a few weeks of short term discomfort?

What's to stop him, however, in such a circumstance? I suppose nothing. I suppose it could be done. However - I'm pretty cynical about those types of things. I'd argue that someone that "didn't want to lose her" in a way that would be beneficial to marriage (meaning truly valued their union) most likely wouldn't be in that kind of position.

Rather - I'd be fearful that anyone who could be put into that kind of position probably was probably more motivated by the "selfish loss" experienced when losing the person.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[Hetta]

I think that it backfires if he agrees and doesn't really want to be married causing him to feel forced and eventually resent her when he finally grows a back bone. I can never tell me wife "I didn't even want to get married you forced me" thats got be some hurtful stuff to realize that your spouse never wanted to marry you they just did it because they folded under pressure.

See the whole thing maybe he wasn't worth it.....what if she wasn't worth it. What if he felt he was better then her and that's why he didn't purpose because he felt he deserved more and she was just a time filler?

That marriage is not built on a stable foundation.

What does he say when asked "why did you two get married?" "It was because she wanted to get married so you know I so I asked her."

That is a lot different then my "I knew she was the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with so I asked her to marry me and she said yes."

One is about a fear of being alone the other is about love.

Then he needs to say no. Any person who after marriage says "I didn't want to marry her, she made me" is very immature, and they caused the unstable marriage because they should have just said no.

Anyone who dates someone as a "time filler" is a pathetic human being.

 

[Hetta]

Why don't you think to much of him.

He seems weak and unfocused, and unambitous, very much a child-man. I don't think that he is good enough for her. I am afraid she will spend her married life being both husband and wife - which she will do out of love for him, but it is a harder life and especially when there are children. But I pray that it is a good marriage. Maybe they fulfill a need in each other. It is hard for me to understand, but not everyone is like me and my husband.

 

[Hetta]

I think many people are fundamentally weak - and often make choices that result in long term pain in lieu of short term pain relief. Think about smoking - for instance. How many people subject themselves to the potential of a lifetime of pain because they can't withstand a few weeks of short term discomfort?

But smoking is a chemical addiction. Love is not.

What's to stop him, however, in such a circumstance? I suppose nothing. I suppose it could be done. However - I'm pretty cynical about those types of things. I'd argue that someone that "didn't want to lose her" in a way that would be beneficial to marriage (meaning truly valued their union) most likely wouldn't be in that kind of position.

I agree. Then the woman saying that she wants to be married is a kind of a test to see whether he does value her. If he does not, she can tell. Anyone who starts looking at the door, he does not want to be there.

Rather - I'd be fearful that anyone who could be put into that kind of position probably was probably more motivated by the "selfish loss" experienced when losing the person.

Just my opinion of course.

Enough selfish loss to go through the whole process of a wedding? Phew. Maybe it is me, but the idea of going through the whole engagement/wedding/marriage process just out of selfishness is mind blowing.

 

[DZoolander]

I think dating should be a learning process.

So, in a sense, most of the people you're going to date *are* time fillers.

Most relationships, IMHO, are destined for failure. Most dates end up going nowhere - because the truth is - most people you meet are incompatible with you.

In math - there are things called parabolic curves... Simply put envision a camel's hump... It starts at nothing - it curves up to an apex - then it dwindles back down to nothing.

That's kind of like compatibility. There are very few people you're going to find detestable and despicable - that you're truly incompatible with. There's a huge number of people that you're *sorta* compatible with... Then on the opposite end of the spectrum there are few few few people that you really could build something "forever" with.

The very nature of dating is to find out where that person is on that scale...and by necessity...you're going to find most unacceptable as a potential lifetime mate.

 

[Avniel]

Then he needs to say no. Any person who after marriage says "I didn't want to marry her, she made me" is very immature, and they caused the unstable marriage because they should have just said no.

Anyone who dates someone as a "time filler" is a pathetic human being.

They probably should have said no but not all people have the same strengths and weaknesses as you or I. I know plenty of men that hate being married and the only reason they did get married was because of pressure. I am not one of those people that really don't feel peer pressure like that but I would be foolish to deny that it does affect some people.

You would be surprised on how many men date women as time fillers. I mean I did it until I met my wife, a woman that I saw worth in. Before my wife and I dated I had girlfriends and even had sex with most of them but I felt as though my first relationship was with my wife. I was just wasting time with the other girls I had sex with and truthfully I felt I was better then them. I'm not saying that this is right I know it's wrong and if I have a daughter I will tell her this and let her know this, my son I am going to educate him on the difference between being interested in someone and wasting time with someone because no one around is your interested in. However talking to a lot of guys plenty of men do this particularly men that are sexually active.

 

[DZoolander]

Enough selfish loss to go through the whole process of a wedding? Phew. Maybe it is me, but the idea of going through the whole engagement/wedding/marriage process just out of selfishness is mind blowing.

For me too, actually, although I can see how someone might be a wuss enough to do it...lol I don't personally *know* anyone that has.

I can only think of one guy I know that allowed himself to be pressured/coerced into an engagement. But - he broke it off pretty quickly after that.