GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ?

[pat34lee]

bobryan,

1. What scripture do you have for God taking the sabbath out of the garden of Eden?
What scripture says that Adam and Eve kept the sabbath? Jerry kelso

God sanctified the Sabbath on the very first week. The pertinent question therefore is, "Can you show that he unsanctified it specifically?"

 

[gadar perets]

Why do you feel that Mark 2:27 goes back to Adam and Eve? And scriptural reference.

The Sabbath was made for man. Adam was a man. Therefore, the Sabbath was made for him as well. The verse does NOT say "the Sabbath was made for the Jews". It is incomprehensible for me to think that the Sabbath was made the day after Adam was made and that it was blessed and sanctified by the Creator and yet Adam, nor any other man, was blessed by it until the time of Moses. That makes Yeshua either a liar or a false teacher.

 

[pat34lee]

pat34lee,

1. The sinless perfection doctrine is not biblical.
3. Gentiles were never under the Old covenant Ephesians 2 and they do not have to become Jews to be in the church.
4. Deuteronomy 27 and 28 of specific blessings and cursing system the church is not under for the curse was taken away at the cross. Read Galatians.

You need to deal with one or two items at a time because there isn't much purpose showing every point is wrong, when the main points begin wrong.
1. From article; link at the end of the quote.
"Lets us examine a portion of Hebrews that is often taken out of context for some clues.
Hebrews 8:13 “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”
Has the author of Hebrews spoken of a day in which this commandment of G-D is longer valid? Was the author of Hebrews speaking of a Torah that was old and dying, in favor of a new Torah? Moses spoke of a Torah that would never be amended or exchanged, yet at first glance it seems as though Paul is in contradictions to Deuteronomy 12:32, after all the passage does say that the first covenant is old and vanishing. However, a closer look at Hebrews chapter 8 reveals Paul to be in complete harmony with the Deuteronomy 12:32. If we take the book of Hebrews to be divinely inspired then there can be no contradictions in it words with Torah.
By G-D’s own words His Torah is everlasting and his commandments are
eternal. Yet the words of Hebrews speak of a covenant that is old and dying.
What is the Paul saying?"
What is the New Covenant? – Sha'arey Tzion Messianic Synagogue
3. Correct, but being a Jew is being of the bloodline. Israel followed the law for centuries before anyone coined the term Jew, and long before the traditions you see as Judaism today. Anyone in OT times who wished to live in Israel and follow God was welcome, the only requirements being that they serve God only, no idols, and to become one of Israel, for the men to be circumcised. They would then be expected to learn the Torah and follow it.
4. The only curse removed was the death penalty for transgressing the law. To say he removed the Deut. curses is like saying he removed cause and effect, sickness, mold, disease or famine and poverty. If you bump your shin, you get a bruise. Commit fornication and you will have natural results, possibly a STD.

 

[pat34lee]

Read Galatians.

About Galatians:
This page has a link to two others in a 3-part series on Galatians, and five videos on how Galatians proves that we are indeed beholden to follow the law. The problem is that this is a whole book, not just pieces that can be uses separately.
Galatians proves that we should keep the Torah

 

[pat34lee]

The Sabbath was made for man. Adam was a man. Therefore, the Sabbath was made for him as well. The verse does NOT say "the Sabbath was made for the Jews". It is incomprehensible for me to think that the Sabbath was made the day after Adam was made and that it was blessed and sanctified by the Creator and yet Adam, nor any other man, was blessed by it until the time of Moses. That makes Yeshua either a liar or a false teacher.

In fact, if Yeshua were speaking Hebrew at that time, and I think he ONLY spoke Hebrew, he would be saying
THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR ADAM.
השבת נעשתה עבור אדם
Not sure how grammatically correct the translation is...
It's from google translate

 

[BobRyan]

I don't completely understand this statement. Gods Word says that sin was not held against them, per see until the law when what was sin was revealed. Can you explain more using scripture

Moses writes - that God says to Cain in Genesis 4 "sin is crouching at your door - but you must master it" -- where in Genesis 1 and 2 or 3 does Moses record that Cain had already been told that hate and murder are wrong?

Moses writes - that God tells Noah to take the animals into the ark - the clean animals by pairs of seven in Genesis 7.. Where in Genesis 1-6 or 7 is Noah

We know from the facts that this must have been told to them - but not every word ever spoken for 2500 years of history leading up to Sinai - is recorded in Genesis.

So then in Exodus 20:11 when God says that the Genesis 2 facts "alone" make the Sabbath binding on mankind - I think we have sufficient affirmation from God's own statement on Genesis 2.

 

[BukiRob]

Could you explain that? Yeshua's death for sin brought in the New Covenant.

I'm not sure why you would say we are not under the New Covenant. Maybe you are choosing not to accept Yeshua's death and resurrection and the New Covenant that brings, but I am praising my Savior's Holy Name for His grace and live forwards me. I am a Child of God.

Please, show us where in scripture that Sabbath is set aside?

I hope that you are aware that the early church observed both Sabbath and the Feast days.

There is no clearer proof that Polycarp and the Quatodeciman dispute. This issue was such a significant dispute that Polycarp traveled to Rome to engage the Bishop of the Church in Rome to turn away from their error. It is believed that Polycarp was appointed by the Apostle John as the Bishop of the church at Smyrna. The Church in Asia Minor held to the LUNAR Jewish Calendar regarding the observance of PASSOVER. Rome deviated from that choosing instead a fixed calendar date. This was in ~ 150 AD.

There is fairly clear evidence that the church in Asia minor continued this practice of observing Sabbath and the Feast days until they were ruthlessly murdered and essentially wiped out by the Byzantine empire.

I think it is also noteworthy that in The Revelation there is no mention of the church in Rome. Scripture never recognizes it... Remeber Yeshua's words..... a little leaven, leaventh the whole bunch.

 

[BukiRob]

Moses writes - that God says to Cain in Genesis 4 "sin is crouching at your door - but you must master it" -- where in Genesis 1 and 2 or 3 does Moses record that Cain had already been told that hate and murder are wrong?

Moses writes - that God tells Noah to take the animals into the ark - the clean animals by pairs of seven in Genesis 7.. Where in Genesis 1-6 or 7 is Noah

We know from the facts that this must have been told to them - but not every word ever spoken for 2500 years of history leading up to Sinai - is recorded in Genesis.

So then in Exodus 20:11 when God says that the Genesis 2 facts "alone" make the Sabbath binding on mankind - I think we have sufficient affirmation from God's own statement on Genesis 2.

Scripture is really NOT about the preantediluvian world, its about the Jews who were the ambassadors of the Truth to the Nations. They were to be a light to draw all man to Yeshua (whom they rejected)

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Sabbath was made for man. Adam was a man. Therefore, the Sabbath was made for him as well. The verse does NOT say "the Sabbath was made for the Jews". It is incomprehensible for me to think that the Sabbath was made the day after Adam was made and that it was blessed and sanctified by the Creator and yet Adam, nor any other man, was blessed by it until the time of Moses. That makes Yeshua either a liar or a false teacher.

Then it is your opinion not scripture.

 

[jerry kelso]

God sanctified the Sabbath on the very first week. The pertinent question therefore is, "Can you show that he unsanctified it specifically?"

pat34lee,

1. God sanctified the seventh day of creation and there is no argument there.

2. Nobody said anything about God unsanctifying the seventh day.
The Jewish sabbath they were to keep it to sanctify it Deuteronomy 5:12.
Sanctification doesn't change the fact the Creation Seventh day was typical like I have already explained.
So you have no point to prove. Jerry kelso

 

[pat34lee]

The Jewish sabbath they were to keep it to sanctify it Deuteronomy 5:12.

This is what I don't get. Where do you get Jewish Sabbath when all the appointed times are God's? There were no Jews in Deuteronomy, or for about a thousand years after, maybe more.

 

[pat34lee]

pat34lee,
1. I will be glad to look at the video though it won't make a difference.

Whether you watch the videos or read the articles, every objection you have is answered there. If truth isn't enough to sway you, I don't know what will. Do you know that your job as a believer is not to hold on to what you believe, but to test it thoroughly to see if it's true? Half of what mainstream churches teach as doctrine today is false. As for my understanding of that doctrine, I was raised Southern Baptist until I could no longer deny that they taught tradition, not biblical truth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Moses writes - that God says to Cain in Genesis 4 "sin is crouching at your door - but you must master it" -- where in Genesis 1 and 2 or 3 does Moses record that Cain had already been told that hate and murder are wrong?

Moses writes - that God tells Noah to take the animals into the ark - the clean animals by pairs of seven in Genesis 7.. Where in Genesis 1-6 or 7 is Noah

We know from the facts that this must have been told to them - but not every word ever spoken for 2500 years of history leading up to Sinai - is recorded in Genesis.

So then in Exodus 20:11 when God says that the Genesis 2 facts "alone" make the Sabbath binding on mankind - I think we have sufficient affirmation from God's own statement on Genesis 2.

I am thinking about Romans 5:13

 

[BukiRob]

christians keep a day to the Lord each week. Do I believe that that should be the Sabbath as outlined in the Old Covenant. Not necessarily.

God now I dwells us. 24/7 365 days per year. If we walk with God each day He is part of our lives, which includes walking by faith always.

IMHO, to put so much focus on one day makes me wonder why the focus is not on God each day.

As you just said to someone else a few posts up, that is NOT in scripture, it is your OPINION

 

[BukiRob]

pat34lee,

1. God sanctified the seventh day of creation and there is no argument there.

2. Nobody said anything about God unsanctifying the seventh day.
The Jewish sabbath they were to keep it to sanctify it Deuteronomy 5:12.
Sanctification doesn't change the fact the Creation Seventh day was typical like I have already explained.
So you have no point to prove. Jerry kelso

And YOU and I and every other GENTILE believer are GRAFTED IN.... we don't have a separate deal.

There is not a single, solitary line of scripture that in ANY WAY says that Sabbath has been done away with. NOT ONE.

All throughout the Torah G-d declares that there is 1 Torah for the Jew and for the Stranger (Goyim; Nations=GENTILE)

 

[ToBeLoved]

As you just said to someone else a few posts up, that is NOT in scripture, it is your OPINION

And where is your scripture that proves it wrong?

That is not what I am seeing. Please give your scripture

 

[ToBeLoved]

And YOU and I and every other GENTILE believer are GRAFTED IN.... we don't have a separate deal.

There is not a single, solitary line of scripture that in ANY WAY says that Sabbath has been done away with. NOT ONE.

All throughout the Torah G-d declares that there is 1 Torah for the Jew and for the Stranger (Goyim; Nations=GENTILE)

The New Covenant is for anyone who believes by faith. As per Galatians 13.
And gentiles are not under Torah, Praise Jesus' Holy Name!

No New Covenant believer is under Torah. That didn't work. The Israelites didn't follow Torah so Christ now writes Torah on our hearts and minds. In order that Torah will be with the New Covenant believers and they will have it with them.

God fixes the problem of the past with the New and better Covenant. This seems to be a very hard thing for some to see. God making new and better under His Son's blood. Even though the prophets told of it long ago.

Maybe the issue is not believing God and the prophets. Which is disobedience. People do not make the rules for God. Humility is knowing who is God and who is God's servent. I am the servant.

 

[BukiRob]

And where is your scripture that proves it wrong?

That is not what I am seeing. Please give your scripture

I dont need to.... I have asked you and you have failed to proved scriptural evidence that supports that Sabbath is done away with... There simply is not a single, solitary verse that you can cite that says that Sabbath has been set aside.

Hebrews 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

The subject of Sabbath is dealt with to great detail in the Tanak. Gentiles are GRAFTED IN....

So since I KNOW you wont dispute that point just what exactly are they grafted into if not Israel?

Are you prepared to then argue that a Jew is not to observe Sabbath? Even a Jew who is a believer?

Furthermore how do you Explain what James says about the Gentiles going to Synagogue to "hear Moses taught" (Hint: that is James saying they will LEARN Torah)

Additionally, there is absolutely no credible argument that the Apostles did not observe Sabbath and the Feast days of G-d

Finally, there is CRYSTAL CLEAR evidence that upto the mid 4th century, believers in the Churches in Asia Minor ALL Observed Sabbath as well as the Feast days...

So then, given the Historical and Scriptural evidence that supports my view on this I dont see how their is much of a debate here.

 

[BukiRob]

The New Covenant is for anyone who believes by faith. As per Galatians 13.
And gentiles are not under Torah, Praise Jesus' Holy Name!

Great show me where Torah is set aside by Yeshua's ministry, death on the cross and Resurrection.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence!

It is IMPOSSIBLE to accept that IF Messiah were going to set aside the Torah, Sabbath and the Feast days of G-d that he would not have told his Apostles. There is nothing more fundamental to the Jews than the Torah and the Feast days of Adonai. NOTHING MORE FUNDAMENTAL.

Not only do you NOT have any testimony from the Messiah about the Torah and Prophets being set aside you actually have the exact OPPOSITE.

At the end of the day when Yeshua says: Matt 5:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The word Fulfil in greek is Pleroo

Strongs defines it as "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17;

Nothing could be clearer. Yeshua came to show us HOW the Torah is to be obeyed. To be our example.

Are we not told that we are to WALK AS HE WALKED? Does not Paul say "Be IMITATORS OF MESSIAH?"

The facts are clear but the FLESH HATES the truth....

 

[1John2:4]

<staff edit>
Where in the bible is two separate Sabbaths declared one for Jews and another for gentiles? Have you read Isaiah 56? If all the Moedim are done away with (fulfilled?) Then why will we be keeping Shabbat in the millennium? Isaiah 66:23, Ezekiel 44-46. And we will be keeping the feast of Tabernacles Zechariah 14?