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Genesis One

Aman777

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Exodus 7:9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.

That's a miracle done by the Lord in the O.T.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Darkness/death is what Hell is the smoke of their torment goes up forever in a burned out hulk of a Universe. Some teach that the Angels got out of Hell and fornicated with Humans and made babies which became giants and men of renown. Doesn't make sense does it?

The giants are us. It's explaining HOW the sons of God (prehistoric people) became Humans (descendants of Adam). The giants are intellectual giants just as today's Humans have the most superior intelligence on Earth.


Chapter and verse please.
 
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Aman777

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Aman777 said:
God's Scriptural Timeline

23 Billion years ago The first Day Gen. 1:3
18 Billion years ago God makes Adam's Earth Gen 1:9-10
14 Billion years ago Adam is formed Gen 2:4
13.8 Billion years ago The Big Bang of our Cosmos happens Gen 2:4
4.53 Billion years ago The present Earth is formed Gen 2:4
3.77 Billion years ago Universal Common Ancestor appears in water Gen 1:21

5-6 Million years ago Prehistoric man diverges from Chimps Gen 6:4

11 Thousand years ago Noah brings Human (descendants of Adam) civilization to planet Earth Gen 8:4 Noah's grandsons marry prehistoric people and produce today's Humans. Gen 6:4

2 Thousand years ago Jesus walks on planet Earth John 3:16

Soon, Jesus returns at Armageddon, rules Earth for a thousand years, and the 6th Day/Age ends Gen 1:31
The 7th Day, the Age of Joy, begins Gen 2:1-3 Amen?

What religion did this come from ?
(It is not found in Yahweh's Word anywhere, not even close. It appears to be directly opposed to Yahweh's Word in fact.)

Look at the end of each statement and you will find that I have bolded the verse which teaches this from the King James Bible. If you don't understand, tell me the bolded verse and I will explain. Amen?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What religion did this come from ?
(It is not found in Yahweh's Word anywhere, not even close. It appears to be directly opposed to Yahweh's Word in fact.)

I'm pretty sure it's Hermogenes

2 Timothy 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Yes, could be.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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Um ... I wasn't aware there was a quota on how many angels were allowed to exercise their freewill.
Didn't God know they would exercise their free will? Why would Angels be doing that if they're already in Heaven, is it that bad there??
Does that amaze you for some reason?
If you're trying to tell me your God is omnipotent, then Yes. He has obviously failed to communicate with his creation in a way that was clear. If he can't even convince Angels who art in heaven with him, and can see his power & omnipotence first hand of his sales pitch, what hope do we have??
What on earth are you talking about? God is omnipotent.
There you go! What version of omnipotence are you imagining if he can't even demonstrate the average potency of communication, a fundamental basic of potency, let alone omnipotency??
Okay with you if God words on a timetable?
...so he's not omnipotent then... Got It!
I think it is written that Yahweh sets all the boundaries and limits and so forth as He Pleases, of everything from nations leaders, oceans, mountains, powers that operate on earth or in heaven or under the earth, and so on....

Yahweh's Chosen limits might be called a quota , perhaps,

and never overthrows anyone's free will until judgment occurs,
as far as I am aware, right ?
So why can't God appear to us and leave no doubt about his existence? After all, the Angels know... and how do Lions lay with Lambs again?
No one is going to Hell that doesn't deserve to go.
So, no one, then. Got it.
Agreed! There's a huge hurdle to the idea that anything would be deserving of eternal torture & damnation, let alone not being able to bring yourself to believe in something without appropriate evidence...
There will not be one atheist in Hell.
True. I'll go a step further and suggest that there won't be anyone in Hell - not just former atheists...
 
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AV1611VET

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True. I'll go a step further and suggest that there won't be anyone in Hell - not just former atheists...
You might want to take what I said a different way.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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True. I'll go a step further and suggest that there won't be anyone in Hell - not just former atheists...

So true, since both Hell and death itself will be cast into the lake of fire and cease to exist.

Most people fail to understand that Hell and Sheol in the Bible simply refer to the common grave of mankind.

There used to be an old expression "helling potatoes" which simply meant to place them in a cellar or the ground and cover them over. It carried no connotation of roasting or fire. But then the Catholic church decided it needed control over Baron's and Kings and so instituted a place of suffering. So you did as they suggested or risk ex-communication and going to hell. But such is what happens when wolves in sheep's clothing get into the flock and take control....
 
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HitchSlap

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So true, since both Hell and death itself will be cast into the lake of fire and cease to exist.

Most people fail to understand that Hell and Sheol in the Bible simply refer to the common grave of mankind.

There used to be an old expression "helling potatoes" which simply meant to place them in a cellar or the ground and cover them over. It carried no connotation of roasting or fire. But then the Catholic church decided it needed control over Baron's and Kings and so instituted a place of suffering. So you did as they suggested or risk ex-communication and going to hell. But such is what happens when wolves in sheep's clothing get into the flock and take control....
There is zero evidence to suggest hell (regardless of the brand you choose) exists in reality. So, we're aware, thanks.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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So true, since both Hell and death itself will be cast into the lake of fire and cease to exist.
Cool, so same as what atheists ultimately expect to happen anyhow - nothing lost then, right??
Most people fail to understand that Hell and Sheol in the Bible simply refer to the common grave of mankind.

There used to be an old expression "helling potatoes" which simply meant to place them in a cellar or the ground and cover them over. It carried no connotation of roasting or fire. But then the Catholic church decided it needed control over Baron's and Kings and so instituted a place of suffering. So you did as they suggested or risk ex-communication and going to hell. But such is what happens when wolves in sheep's clothing get into the flock and take control....
sure. whatever your interpretation of your version of your religion says...
 
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Aman777

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What religion did this come from ?
(It is not found in Yahweh's Word anywhere, not even close. It appears to be directly opposed to Yahweh's Word in fact.)


Yes, could be.

False. It's Scriptural. Want to see?

BTW, There is NO Yahweh except in the minds of those who cannot understand Scripture.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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There is zero evidence to suggest hell (regardless of the brand you choose) exists in reality. So, we're aware, thanks.

It does exist in reality. It is simply the common grave of mankind. But I'm glad to learn you ignore reality....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Cool, so same as what atheists ultimately expect to happen anyhow - nothing lost then, right??

sure. whatever your interpretation of your version of your religion says...

We just had this discussion of interpretation in another thread. So which interpretation of evolution is true and which is false? Or will you attempt double-talk and avoidance there too?
 
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TCassidy

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We just had this discussion of interpretation in another thread.
I find the above to be the most thought out response to this entire thread. When we can address the question of bible interpretation (hermeneutics) we can begin to lay a foundation for our respective positions.

I believe in a Grammatical/Historic hermeneutic.

Grammatical simply recognizes that words mean things. "Horse" does not mean "cow" and "cat" does not mean "dog."

Every word has both an etymological and philological meaning.

The etymological meaning is understood by the root word. Baseball is a ball game that includes the use of bases. A railroad is a road made of rails.

The philological meaning is how the word has come to be used in common discussion. A "butterfly" is neither butter or a fly. The word is used for a type of flying insect. (The word probably is a corruption of its original etymological roots of "flutter fly.")

So, as it applies to the word "day" in Genesis chapter 1 we can apply the above hermeneutic.

The word "day" (Hebrew: יום - yom) means a period from sundown to sundown the following day (the Jewish definition). It can also mean the half of the day/night cycle that is daytime, or light. It can also be used idiomatically to mean an indeterminate period of time.

So, the Grammatical aspect of our hermeneutic gives us 3 possible meanings.

So now we must apply the historic aspect of our hermeneutic. As this is the first time the word is mentioned in the bible we don't have a lot of history to appeal to.

But we have to remember, Genesis was not written during the time of Creation. It was written by Moses sometime around 1450-1400 BC.

That allows us to use the hermeneutic principle of "shareability." This concept is what the word means in common usage at the time of writing. Imagine, if you will, two old guys with nothing better to do, looking over Moses' shoulder as he pens the words of Genesis 1. When he pens the word "day" what would those two, old, Jewish guys living in the 15th century BC understand the word "yom" to mean? A day. Their common understanding is that "day" means "a day." From sundown to sundown, just as all Jews of that day understood.

So this is a very strong indication that the word "day" in Genesis 1, when understood using the Grammatical/Historic hermeneutic and exercising the principle of shareability would mean "a period of 24" hours, from sundown (darkness) to sundown the next day (including the morning period of light).

So we have the three-fold cord of etymology, philology, and shareability to strongly suggest to us that "day" in Genesis 1 means a literal, 24 hour cycle of darkness/light.

(Sorry this got so long. Forgive an old, retired seminary professor with too much time on his hands - kind of like the two old Jewish guys mentioned above.) :D
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I find the above to be the most thought out response to this entire thread. When we can address the question of bible interpretation (hermeneutics) we can begin to lay a foundation for our respective positions.

I believe in a Grammatical/Historic hermeneutic.

Grammatical simply recognizes that words mean things. "Horse" does not mean "cow" and "cat" does not mean "dog."

Every word has both an etymological and philological meaning.

The etymological meaning is understood by the root word. Baseball is a ball game that includes the use of bases. A railroad is a road made of rails.

The philological meaning is how the word has come to be used in common discussion. A "butterfly" is neither butter or a fly. The word is used for a type of flying insect. (The word probably is a corruption of its original etymological roots of "flutter fly.")

So, as it applies to the word "day" in Genesis chapter 1 we can apply the above hermeneutic.

The word "day" (Hebrew: יום - yom) means a period from sundown to sundown the following day (the Jewish definition). It can also mean the half of the day/night cycle that is daytime, or light. It can also be used idiomatically to mean an indeterminate period of time.

So, the Grammatical aspect of our hermeneutic gives us 3 possible meanings.

So now we must apply the historic aspect of our hermeneutic. As this is the first time the word is mentioned in the bible we don't have a lot of history to appeal to.

But we have to remember, Genesis was not written during the time of Creation. It was written by Moses sometime around 1450-1400 BC.

That allows us to use the hermeneutic principle of "shareability." This concept is what the word means in common usage at the time of writing. Imagine, if you will, two old guys with nothing better to do, looking over Moses' shoulder as he pens the words of Genesis 1. When he pens the word "day" what would those two, old, Jewish guys living in the 15th century BC understand the word "yom" to mean? A day. Their common understanding is that "day" means "a day." From sundown to sundown, just as all Jews of that day understood.

So this is a very strong indication that the word "day" in Genesis 1, when understood using the Grammatical/Historic hermeneutic and exercising the principle of shareability would mean "a period of 24" hours, from sundown (darkness) to sundown the next day (including the morning period of light).

So we have the three-fold cord of etymology, philology, and shareability to strongly suggest to us that "day" in Genesis 1 means a literal, 24 hour cycle of darkness/light.

(Sorry this got so long. Forgive an old, retired seminary professor with too much time on his hands - kind of like the two old Jewish guys mentioned above.) :D

And I have no problem with interpreting "Day" to mean a period of 24 hours during the creation of man, or literally an event that took 6 days.

But then since we are discussing interpretation, why interpret the second word of the second verse of the Bible as "was" when it's connotation implies a change of state "became"?

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1961.htm

Notice it means "to fall out, come to pass, become, be"

Notice also that in all the entire possible word listings, "was" does not exist.....

The word always denotes a change from one thing to another, never a previous condition as the English word "was" is used.

So in the second verse of the Bible we are told the Earth "became" (hayah) desolate and waste, and darkness "became" upon the face of the deep.

Couple this with the fact that tohu wa bohu is used together only in three verses in the Bible. In both other passages it points to a flourishing condition made desolate and waste.

Couple this again with the fact that the verb tense in the first verse is in the past tense. As in completed, done, finished.

Couple this again with the fact that in the oldest manuscripts there is a pause mark after verse one. This signified we were to stop, pause, and marvel at the Works of God just completed.

Taken all together it clearly points to a once flourishing earth that was made desolate and waste by some catastrophe. Hence the dinosaurs went extinct.

But people forget that the Bible was written only to concern itself with the creation of man, his fall, and need for a savior. It was not written to describe all of creation in detail. This is what the Works are for. The same Author penned them both. He penned the Works not with the pen of man, but with His own Word. The Works ARE the Book of Creation.

There have according to the Works and taking into account the Bible was only written concerning the last creation (man) been 6 creations and five destruction's. This is why after every major mass extinction (five), all new life different than the last was brought into being, culminating with man. Some from the prior destruction's survived into the next.

But this last creation is not the end. There is still a sixth destruction and a seventh and final creation left to go. A Seventh creation in which all new lifeforms will once again be observed, such as a lion-like creature that eats straw. Hence 666. 6th creation on the 6th day and the reason for the 6th destruction.

The flood is not counted in this cycle of creation and destruction, because the animals that lived prior to it, were brought through it. This is why their is no sharp demarcation line as there exists after the other five destruction's in which new life was created, different from the old. This is why the destruction of life from the flood can not easily be seen, no new animals were created afterwards, but the same ones that existed previously flourished again.

The timeframe of man himself is simply confused by men who fail to take into account time dilation when "God stretched out the heavens". Even if it has been scientifically proven that time slows during acceleration, these same people that profess to follow science, refuse to apply time dilation to the age of the earth. This is why radioactive dating is flawed. If decay rates slow as velocity increases, then decay rates speed up the further one goes back in time when the velocity was less. This gives the appearance of hundreds of thousands of years to the age of man, because they use the slower decay rate today - to calculate the same rate of decay in the past - when it was actually faster.

EDIT: So no, I have no problem with a literal interpretation of days during the creation of man. But I won't ignore what "hayah" means either, or the Works of God to fit some person's pre-conceived beliefs from 2,000 years ago. I agree with Jesus, man and the animals with him were created in 6 days. But man is the 6th creation event, not the entirety of creation itself.
 
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TCassidy

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But then since we are discussing interpretation, why interpret the second word of the second verse of the Bible as "was" when it's connotation implies a change of state "became"?
Because it doesn't. :)

The Hebrew verb היתה translated "was" is in the Qal (indicative) perfect tense. It would have to be an Imperfect to be translated "became."

There may be some ambiguity regarding past or future actions, but that crops up only when the Imperfect tense is used, not the perfect. :)
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Because it doesn't. :)

The Hebrew verb היתה translated "was" is in the Qal (indicative) perfect tense. It would have to be an Imperfect to be translated "became."

There may be some ambiguity regarding past or future actions, but that crops up only when the Imperfect tense is used, not the perfect. :)

It should be noted in this connection that the verb was in Genesis 1:2 may quite possibly be rendered ‘became’ and be construed to mean: ‘And the earth became formless and void.’ Only a cosmic catastrophe could account for the introduction of chaotic confusion into the original perfection of God’s creation. This interpretation certainly seems to be exegetically tenable …” ( A Survey of Old Testament Introduction, 1974, p. 184).

In a footnote Archer adds, “Properly speaking, this verb hayah never has the meaning of static being like the copular verb ‘to be.’ Its basic notion is that of becoming or emerging as such and such, or of coming into being …

Sometimes a distinction is attempted along the following lines: hayah means ‘become’ only when it is followed by the preposition le ; otherwise there is no explicit idea of becoming. But this distinction will not stand up under analysis. In Genesis 3:20 the proper rendering is: ‘And Adam called the name of his wife Eve, because she became the mother of all living.’ No le follows the verb in this case.

So also in Genesis 4:20: ‘Jabal became the father of tent dwellers.’ Therefore there can be no grammatical objection raised to translating Genesis 1:2: ‘And the earth became a wasteness and desolation’ ”.

The Hebrew scholars who wrote the Targum of Onkelos, the earliest of the Aramaic paraphrases of the Old Testament, rendered Genesis 1:2 with an Aramaic expression Dr. Custance translates as “and the earth was laid waste”. The original language evidently led them to understand that something had occurred which had “laid waste” the earth, and they interpreted this as a destruction.

The early Catholic theologian Origen (186-254), in his commentary De Principiis, explains regarding Genesis 1:2 that the original earth had been “cast downwards” ( Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1917, p. 342).

According to The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, the Dutch scholar Simon Episcopius (1583-1643) taught that the earth had originally been created before the six days of creation described in Genesis (1952, Vol. 3, p. 302). This was roughly 200 years before geology embraced an ancient origin for the earth.

Perhaps the best treatment on both sides of this question is given by Dr. Custance in his book. He states: “To me, this issue is important, and after studying the problem for some thirty years and after reading everything I could lay my hands on pro and con and after accumulating in my own library some 300 commentaries on Genesis, the earliest being dated 1670, I am persuaded that there is, on the basis of the evidence, far more reason to translate Genesis 1:2 as ‘But the earth had become a ruin and a desolation, etc.’ than there is for any of the conventional translations in our modern versions”

"Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew language "
"H1961. hayah, haw-yaw'; a prim. root; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)...""

http://www.watchman-nee.nl/hayah.pdf

Your argument has been considered and found lacking. Read the above in depth. You need to THINK like an ancient Hebrew, not like a modern English Scholar.

"Remember what Martin Anstey expressed in The Romance of Bible Chronology. "When a Hebrew writer makes a simple affirmation, or merely predicates the existence of anything, the verb hayah is never expressed. Where it is expressed it must always be translated by our verb to become, never by the verb to be, if we desire to convey the exact shade of the meaning of the Original"
 
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